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Fisher Factory Edge Setings

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Took my skis to Ski Barn in Ramsey NJ to get them "tuned". It seems that Ski Barn couldn't tune a one string guitar with Slash giving them tips.
I desperately need to get them back to that factory edge feel and appreciate any help or suggestions with setting the edge angles.
post #2 of 30
With (at least) Fischer it depends on tuning (at least for race skis). Skis with T-tuning (basically race stock hole skis) have 0 on base and 90 (or 0 depending how you look at this) on edge, so it's up to serviceman/racer to go from there. But for normal store skis, I have no info, so I can't help more then this.
post #3 of 30
I have been told by Fischer factory people on the phone that the standard is .5 on the base and 3 degrees on the edge. Slalom or GS skis, matters not according to what the rep on the phone said.
post #4 of 30
Thread Starter 
By the way in case anyone's clairvoyant cap isn't working the skis in question are RX8
post #5 of 30
Thread Starter 
RShea , Primoz, TYVM
post #6 of 30
My Fischer WC SCs (RX8 on steroids) came with 1 base 3 side.  That's probably what your skis were set to. The 1 base took me a while to get used to, as my older race skis were tuned to 0.5 base 3 side, but after a while I had to admit it was nice to be able to not pay much attention, read the paper, etc. while skiing.  With a 0.5 base you have to pay attention to what you're doing.  When I get them tuned next, I'm going to change to 0.5 base 3 side.
post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 
Ghost did you see a big diff with 1 base vs .5 base on man made  lowd pow? It seems that's all we ski on here and the factory settings , whatever they were, were perfect. I could throw  the skis away form my body on practically anything and they came back. Last week if I pushed them away they took it all personal and kept going.
post #8 of 30
There is no difference in the SL skis once the skis are on edge and you are turning.  The 1-3 has enough bite.   The difference I noticed was at initiation or transition with the skis barely turning.   The skis with the greater base bevel are a little less precise at that point, and it takes a tiny fraction of a second longer to get the edge in (which really isn't a factor in most skiing).  The difference between the 1 and 0.5 degree base bevel on the SL skis with a 3 degree side bevel was not worth getting a base grind to change it.   Next base grind will be soon enough.

Maybe the "detuned" your skis.  That means they made them dull instead of sharp so you would have an "easier" time skiing them.  Ski edges are meant to be sharp.  If you're not in danger of cutting your hands on them when carrying them, you need to sharpen them, imho of course.

The only instance I found the 1 degree base bevel really dissapointing was on my old SG skis, which only had a 2 degree side bevel.  I actually got a base grind prematurely done on them, just so I could go back to the 0.5 degree base bevel.  The 0.5 degree base bevel returned their precise instant performance. (Yeah, I know I'm not supposed to want a lower base bevel on speed skis, but these are oldschool skis with a BIG turn radius and I got used to them that way.)

On the plus side, I find it easier to ignore my skis as I  adjust my ski jacket mitts goggles and what have you while skiing away from the lift, or to make gross upper body movements to look at the scenery or my kid's skiing behind me without affecting my path.
post #9 of 30
Before you go the route of base grinding, try how far they are detuned.

First you have to understand the difference between detuning and detuning/dulling.

Detuning is done to take the burrs of your edges after sharpening, this is usually a single 45 degree pass with a rubber stone with low pressure.
Detunning/Dulling is done with the same rubber stone but more progresively on the tips and tails. I like my skis sharp approx 5cm from where they hit the snow, but that is on my volants, and it is different for other skies.

In general:
The right amount of detuned/dulled on tail and tip will make that you enter a turn with the flick of your boots.
Too much detuned/dulled and your tip and tails have no grip making it hard to enter turn and it feels like you are all over the place.
Not enough detuned/dulled and your tip will enter a turn unwanted, giving you the feel that they control you and they bite back.

Check where your ski is dull/sharp by using your finger nail and using the edge to take a sliver of the top of the nail.
Now how sharp is sharp, if you can shave with them they are sharp, mines where sharp enough to cut my leki carbon poles just above the teller neatly without me even feeling it... 

A sharp edge will not feel sharp it will feel very smooth, your nail will tell you it is real sharp, if it feels sharp the edge usually has burrs.

How to detune/dull edges take a rubber stone and use pressure on 45 deg angle, overlap strokes lighter pressure towards where you want them sharp. Take that rubber stone with you the first day and check your edges at the end of the day for stone hits which create burr and drag. A diamond file will take care of those.

To check the angle of your ski edges....
take a filt marker pen and mark the edges
take an angle sharpener set at 87 deg with a pansar file
take a stroke without pressure and see if you removed the ink completely, yes it is 87 (-3) deg. Partly? Change the angle untill you know.
Bottom is a bit more difficult, you need a bigger file for it and the appropiate bevel guide. Do not mess around with a guide and use handshoes.

When you are checking also check how plane your base is, this is done by putting a new metal scraper on the base and shining light from the other side, if you see light in the center, your base is hollow, if you see it on the sides its bulging. it should be flat.

imho the amount of dulling/detuning and a base which is not flat makes a much more dramatic impression as 0,5 or -1 degree bevel and 90 degree or 87 degree edges, but they are absolutely noticeable, especially on hard pack!

Good luck, will be interesting to know what was wrong. 
post #10 of 30
I had an issue with a pair of Fischer 175cm cheater GS RC4 skis a few years back. Took a few shops to get them right. They were base high right from the start. Measuring them next to 2 other pairs that friends owned. First shop gave them a tune and then detuned tips and tails on them and I could not get them to respond. Then I had a shop that was a little more race oriented do a tune on them. No detuning tips and tails and sharp as sharp could be (as in do not even touch them with a bare finger or risk getting cut). Much better and finally responsive and skiable. Was almost ready to sell them and move on to something else before I tried 1 more time. That is when I talked to the US Fischer reps. So yes do check to see if they detuned the tips and tails. Those RX8 are really close to the Fischer Race Slalom skis from a construction and even the side cut is close to the slalom series skis.
post #11 of 30
Hey Juik!

Dunno is ths helps, but if these are performance skies you have,
they are 2 side, 1 base and gradul detune 4 inches in the back and 2 inches in the front.
I agree with ghost that 0.5 vs 1 is less important than 3 side for ice and super hard packed.

The front and read detune are there to help people relax. The front detune is not as important
as read detune for pivot. However, with a minimum of technique, detunes are not necessairy
IMHO. So in your case, I would go with 3 1 and detune back only 2-4 inches. Will the guy
behind the counter understand this? That is another question completely!

Haooy skiing!
post #12 of 30
grinn start looking for a good shop or a diy training....
Be happy that you do not have one of those plasma edge skies which were there several years ago going from 90 to 86 to 90 degree angle
post #13 of 30
Quote from:
Ivo Verhaar

Quote:
Before you go the route of base grinding, try how far they are detuned.

Quote:
First you have to understand the difference between detuning and detuning/dulling.
 

Quote:
Detuning is done to take the burrs of your edges after sharpening, this is usually a single 45 degree pass

I have always called this deburring, not detuning.

I never detune untill I get to the hill and see how they ski, maybe several runs.
I carry a small pocket stone with me and only detune a minimum amount if needed.
post #14 of 30
Thread Starter 
OK so I 'll postpone  re-shaping the edges  until I try to figure out what's wrong with the skis . Thank you all , happy new year.
Edited by Jiuk - 1/1/10 at 9:29am
post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiuk View Post

OK so I 'll post pone  re-shaping the edges  until I try to figure out what's wrong with the skis . Thank you all , happy new year.
 

Might I suggest:

http://www.skimd.com/

My opinion is that Mike de Santis is the best tuner I have ever seen.
He is only about 200 miles from you but also does mail order tunes.
Hey,he is about 1100 miles from me.
If you can wait he does off season specials.
post #16 of 30
Thread Starter 
It's probably a very good idea and if I pick up a pair of mogul skis this week and focus on that for a while I'll send these to him. But I'd like to see if I can indentify what Ski Barn screwed up.
They did my wife's skis too and she's an intermediate skier, she had a really hard time.
post #17 of 30
Here is some suggestion to look for:

Base at 0.5 vs 1: Skis very responsive turn to turn, but you cannot
relax at all as you will feel the skis are just too nervous and want
to catch everything on the slope to carve it.

Side 3 vs 2: This will give you better very hard packed and ice hold.
Turn initiation will be positive, however catching an edge will also be
positive and, as with 0.5 base, concentrate on keeping your heels always active!

Front detune: Will help wiper sking on hard packed, will make initiation
less abrupt and will be less prone to over rotation where you start with
a carve but drift the last part of the turn. Unless you have excellent femur
rotation technique.

Rear detune: IMHO has most effect on pivot at slow speed. Especially on
straight back skis (that do not end up in a spatula). Also very prone to
catching en edge on hard packed so rear detune is much more forgiving.

Deburr: Deburr is an integral part of tuning, however it is there to
preserve the efficienty of the grind. Edges are ground under, then sides
which will make the edges last longer. However, when doing the side, burring
will be directed straight down and those burrs can offer very unusual behavior
on ice and hard packed. So all skis are deburred at base angle and usually
by hand as this required only minimal intervention.

Tip to toe full edge grind(no detune): This will offer the longest edge possible
but this will also provide the longest edge "lever" where skis will become almost
impossible to pivot under weight and agressive un weighting will be required
to pivot under speed. It should however, offer the best traction on icy conditions
and the best edge hold as longer edge surface conforms to a larger patch of slope
and the variable conditions that come with it.

And that was my opinion!
post #18 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiuk View Post

It's probably a very good idea and if I pick up a pair of mogul skis this week and focus on that for a while I'll send these to him. But I'd like to see if I can indentify what Ski Barn screwed up.
They did my wife's skis too and she's an intermediate skier, she had a really hard time.
 
What kind of skis are you thinking of?
post #19 of 30
Thread Starter 
Friend  has a pair of Twisters he barely uses
post #20 of 30
Sounds good!
post #21 of 30
I disagree with all the detune advice.  I like my skis sharp for the full contact length from the front curve to the rear curve.  I can steer, pivot, skid, whatever, whenever and where ever I like, and they grip on hard stuff much better.  I do round over the edge in front of the front contact point so the skis have the least tendency to ride up on the sides of ruts.

3° sides will grip better but also get nicked deeper when a rock is hit vs. 2° sides.  I ski with 3° sides and 0.75° base except the base softened to 1° near the tip & tail for easier turn initiation.
post #22 of 30
Softening of the base is also part of the detune.
post #23 of 30
A 1/3 is standard tune for Fischer. No factory turns out a .5 that I am aware of! they have a tough enough time getting a decent 1 degree.

Your problem is almost 100% for sure a hanging burr! When you said you throw your skis out away from your body (although this is also incorrect. you're  body moves inside of the arc of the skis, but that is an entirely separate discussion) and then your skis won't come back and take it personal.  this sounds like a hanging burr.

My experience has been either shop employees are in too big a hurry to bother to remove the hanging burr or are just ignorant to the fact of how important this step is in the tuning process.

Search for hanging burr, on the forum, tthere are numerous expalnations of how to remove it!

I agree with Softsnowguy except it is an old wives tale that a 3 degree side edge is more fragile or does not stay sharp as long as a 2. it's just not true. (Ask Mike DeSantis, he was product manager for Volkl for years, a World cup Tech and one of the most knowledgeable people around in regard to ski tuning. He used to post here as skidoc. 

 http://www.skimd.com/parameters.php

Pay particular attention to and i quote! :  SkiMD produces all side edge angles at 3.0 degrees. More factories are realizing that it’s worth the hassle to recalibrate side edge machinery to this parameter. Why? Because shaped skis are able to achieve higher tip angles with greater leverage than straight skis. As a result, skis with less than 3 degrees of side edge will have a tendency to chatter, as the upper portion of edge interfaces with the skiing surface and “boots out” the lower portion.
Never let anyone try to convince you that this is too radical, or that it gets duller quicker. No information exists to support that theory. The difference in material removal between a 2 or 3 degree side edge angle is truly minimal over a side edge height of 2-2.5 millimeters. However, the difference in performance when asking your skis to do what you want is profound. If your skis or snowboard chatter when tipped on edge, it means your side edge angle is incorrect.


http://www.skimd.com/

http://www.skimd.com/testimonials.php 

http://www.skimd.com/process.php
Edited by Atomicman - 1/5/10 at 10:03am
post #24 of 30

This thread is Deja Vu for me and it was Atomic Man about 5 years ago diagnosed my tune woes as a simple to correct hanging burr! My friend and I had skied out in Vail in early Dec. in pretty "boney" conditions and before heading home went to a very reputable shop in Lionshead and had our skis tuned. The next time skiing was the following weekend at the local hill and when I put the skis on edge and turned it felt like I was on a track that I couldn't get off and couldn't disengage and roll to a new set of edges! It was almost scary.

My buddy took his family down th Snowshoe that same weekend using for the first time his freshly tuned skis and experienced the same terrible sensations. He let one of his kids try his skis and they had a similar experience.

A Man read my post and said it was a simple hanging burr that was the root cause and to take a stone and make passes on the bottom and side edge to knoock the burr off. Night and day period. That's all  it was  and with a stone and about 2 minutes I could ski those skis again and they were great. Its unbelievable to think a simple burr could make such a dramatic difference but its true.

I hope your ski tune misery is as simple to fix as mine was. But I have a hunch it probably is. Good luck.

post #25 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns View Post

This thread is Deja Vu for me and it was Atomic Man about 5 years ago diagnosed my tune woes as a simple to correct hanging burr! My friend and I had skied out in Vail in early Dec. in pretty "boney" conditions and before heading home went to a very reputable shop in Lionshead and had our skis tuned. The next time skiing was the following weekend at the local hill and when I put the skis on edge and turned it felt like I was on a track that I couldn't get off and couldn't disengage and roll to a new set of edges! It was almost scary.

My buddy took his family down th Snowshoe that same weekend using for the first time his freshly tuned skis and experienced the same terrible sensations. He let one of his kids try his skis and they had a similar experience.

A Man read my post and said it was a simple hanging burr that was the root cause and to take a stone and make passes on the bottom and side edge to knoock the burr off. Night and day period. That's all  it was  and with a stone and about 2 minutes I could ski those skis again and they were great. Its unbelievable to think a simple burr could make such a dramatic difference but its true.

I hope your ski tune misery is as simple to fix as mine was. But I have a hunch it probably is. Good luck.

'
My problem isn't that they held the edge , heck I would've loved that, they just slid away form me whenever I wasn't right on top of them. Any but the slightest articulation resulted in me sliding downhill sideways or on my but. To get down I had to traverse the slope until I found loose snow  prop them on the edge against that and turn. I never experienced anything like this.  I think I'll have a little time tonight to go down in the basement and see if I can figure it out.
post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 
What would the difference be if I took the edge to 1.5 instead of 1? 
post #27 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post


A 1/3 is standard tune for Fischer. No factory turns out a .5 that I am aware of! they have a tough enough time getting a decent 1 degree.

Your problem is almost 100% for sure a hanging burr! When you said you throw your skis out away from your body (although this is also incorrect. you're  body moves inside of the arc of the skis, but that is an entirely separate discussion) and then your skis won't come back and take it personal.  this sounds like a hanging burr.

My experience has been either shop employees are in too big a hurry to bother to remove the hanging burr or are just ignorant to the fact of how important this step is in the tuning process.

Search for hanging burr, on the forum, tthere are numerous expalnations of how to remove it!

I agree with Softsnowguy except it is an old wives tale that a 3 degree side edge is more fragile or does not stay sharp as long as a 2. it's just not true. (Ask Mike DeSantis, he was product manager for Volkl for years, a World cup Tech and one of the most knowledgeable people around in regard to ski tuning. He used to post here as skidoc. 

 http://www.skimd.com/parameters.php

Pay particular attention to and i quote! :  SkiMD produces all side edge angles at 3.0 degrees. More factories are realizing that it’s worth the hassle to recalibrate side edge machinery to this parameter. Why? Because shaped skis are able to achieve higher tip angles with greater leverage than straight skis. As a result, skis with less than 3 degrees of side edge will have a tendency to chatter, as the upper portion of edge interfaces with the skiing surface and “boots out” the lower portion.
Never let anyone try to convince you that this is too radical, or that it gets duller quicker. No information exists to support that theory. The difference in material removal between a 2 or 3 degree side edge angle is truly minimal over a side edge height of 2-2.5 millimeters. However, the difference in performance when asking your skis to do what you want is profound. If your skis or snowboard chatter when tipped on edge, it means your side edge angle is incorrect.


http://www.skimd.com/

http://www.skimd.com/testimonials.php 

http://www.skimd.com/process.php
I agree with you I don't think that 3 degree edges will suffer all that much especially from weekend warriors like me.
Do you know what would the effect be of a 1.5 base Vs 1
post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

With (at least) Fischer it depends on tuning (at least for race skis). Skis with T-tuning (basically race stock hole skis) have 0 on base and 90 (or 0 depending how you look at this) on edge, so it's up to serviceman/racer to go from there. But for normal store skis, I have no info, so I can't help more then this.
 

I was told by my local Fischer rep that the SL skis were shipped 0.3 base, 4 side. 
The skis I set up for my daughter seemed to match this,  (Although my measuring instruments aren't as accurate as A-man's, so I have to allow a little leeway.)

This is not necessarily the recommended tune, but as Primoz said, Fischer expects the skis to be tuned to fit the skier, and they have just provided an easy starting point.
post #29 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitazz View Post

Before you go the route of base grinding, try how far they are detuned.

First you have to understand the difference between detuning and detuning/dulling.

Detuning is done to take the burrs of your edges after sharpening, this is usually a single 45 degree pass with a rubber stone with low pressure.
Detunning/Dulling is done with the same rubber stone but more progresively on the tips and tails. I like my skis sharp approx 5cm from where they hit the snow, but that is on my volants, and it is different for other skies.

In general:
The right amount of detuned/dulled on tail and tip will make that you enter a turn with the flick of your boots.
Too much detuned/dulled and your tip and tails have no grip making it hard to enter turn and it feels like you are all over the place.
Not enough detuned/dulled and your tip will enter a turn unwanted, giving you the feel that they control you and they bite back.

Check where your ski is dull/sharp by using your finger nail and using the edge to take a sliver of the top of the nail.
Now how sharp is sharp, if you can shave with them they are sharp, mines where sharp enough to cut my leki carbon poles just above the teller neatly without me even feeling it... 

A sharp edge will not feel sharp it will feel very smooth, your nail will tell you it is real sharp, if it feels sharp the edge usually has burrs.

How to detune/dull edges take a rubber stone and use pressure on 45 deg angle, overlap strokes lighter pressure towards where you want them sharp. Take that rubber stone with you the first day and check your edges at the end of the day for stone hits which create burr and drag. A diamond file will take care of those.

To check the angle of your ski edges....
take a filt marker pen and mark the edges
take an angle sharpener set at 87 deg with a pansar file
take a stroke without pressure and see if you removed the ink completely, yes it is 87 (-3) deg. Partly? Change the angle untill you know.
Bottom is a bit more difficult, you need a bigger file for it and the appropiate bevel guide. Do not mess around with a guide and use handshoes.

When you are checking also check how plane your base is, this is done by putting a new metal scraper on the base and shining light from the other side, if you see light in the center, your base is hollow, if you see it on the sides its bulging. it should be flat.

imho the amount of dulling/detuning and a base which is not flat makes a much more dramatic impression as 0,5 or -1 degree bevel and 90 degree or 87 degree edges, but they are absolutely noticeable, especially on hard pack!

Good luck, will be interesting to know what was wrong. 


Just to let you know that I come back to this post whenever I need to sharpen my skis, thanks again

 

post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

My Fischer WC SCs (RX8 on steroids) came with 1 base 3 side.  That's probably what your skis were set to. The 1 base took me a while to get used to, as my older race skis were tuned to 0.5 base 3 side, but after a while I had to admit it was nice to be able to not pay much attention, read the paper, etc. while skiing.  With a 0.5 base you have to pay attention to what you're doing.  When I get them tuned next, I'm going to change to 0.5 base 3 side.


haha....very true! A real 1/2 you can not fall asleep in the transition at all on hard snow. I may go to a 0.75 just for that reason. Got some reading to do!
At least when they're dull you know very quickly in terms of movements where as the 1 deg dull you have to wait a bit and then there's nothing there.

 

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