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Skiing movements

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
I want to extend some discussions we've had and talk more about skiing movements. These are truly the finer points of skiing, but they're so important. In my case, I learned them only because I had a picture in my mind of what the movements are and I had someone whom I believe in watch my skiing.

Others can learn from these discussions.

On the downhill leg:
I took a few runs with my coach the other day and he pointed out that although yes, I was making my first move with the downhill leg, my movement was still wrong. Yes, I was releasing the downhill leg to start the turn, but in doing so, I was pushing my body uphill - and creating a slight banking effect -- I was skiing while leaning uphill and that's a no-no.

Yes, I got my downhill leg to relax, but in doing so, I was transferring all my weight to the uphill ski - I wasn't leaning over the downhill ski and my CM was remaining uphill, most of the time.

He showed me what to do and it made a HUGE difference -- a breakthrough day. Now when I start a turn, here's what I do.

1) I roll my downhill ski flat and lean over it to start the turn. If you were to watch me below the knees, my feet and shins move together, in parallel, driven by my feet. This action, driven by my feet, brings my body over the downhill ski and I'm now parallel (90% angle) to the hill.

At this point, if you were to stand behind me and take a picture, you would think, "He's going to fall over his downhill ski". In fact, it's not easy to get here because you really do think you're going to fall over your downhill ski.

Now, I can truly say I understand, "falling downhill". I can also say that it is not easy to get this point in your skiing. Because, you think you're going to fall over your skis when you flatten/lean over the downhill ski to start the turn. You have to have trust and you have to trust your skis!

I've observed a lot by watching and noticed most skiers never let their body get parallel to the hill (90% angle). They turn while leaning uphill is this is not proper skiing movements. I'm also suspicious that these improper skiing movements come from the evil wedge. Because, that damn wedge teaches skiers to keep weight uphill while turning.

I've also noticed that most skiers don't have the release right. Yes, they're lightening their downhill ski, but they don't lean over it.

2) Now my turns are totally different. They're round -- so sweet and round. In fact, my turns were sweeter and rounder than.........

Because, in learning this move, leaning over the downhill ski, I've now learned to patient and "wait for the skis to turn". I was not being patient and my tails were not following my tips in all cases. Now, they are. A skier has to get to the point where they let the skis turn themselves! Those damn skis really do turn themselves if you set them up to do so.

Now, it's not magical. You do have to have a plan to set them up so that they'll turn themselves. What I'm saying is that part of the plan is leaning over the downhill ski to start the turn. Once you've leaned over the downhill ski to start the turn, your body becomes parallel, at a right angle to the hill, the downhill ski rolls over onto its little toe edge and the uphill ski rolls over onto its big toe edge. Now, this isn't magical, you have to gently -- GENTLY -- roll that downhill ski over onto its outside edge. I emphasize gently -- it's not a strong move. It's a very gentle move. And with shaped skis, small moves make a big difference.

Then, when the edges are doing their "thang", here's where skiers need to learn to be patient -- to wait for the sidecut to engage. Most skiers don't wait for the sidecuts to engage. They're not patient and their turns aren't round. They can't control their speed and they do not have proper skiing movements.

Phrases and ideas that make up the finer points of skiing:

1) Skiers must learn to get to the point where the sidecut does the work -- to let the skis turn themselves.

2) Don't ski while leaning uphill.

3) Lean over the downhill ski to start your turn -- you won't fall over! Skiers must learn to "fall downhill".

4) Be gentle. With shaped skis, small movements make a big difference.

5) Be a "lazy" skier -- let the skis do the work.

6) A turn is a lateral movement, starting at the feet.

On alignment. I had been skiing with 3 degrees under each inside heal. I thought this would help my movements. After I skied with my coach, I went right down and took my canting strips out. So I guess what I'm saying is that canting will not make up for improper movements.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 17, 2001 11:31 AM: Message edited 1 time, by SCSA ]</font>
post #2 of 48
Thread Starter 
I'm skiing at Loveland on Tuesday. If anyone wants to meet for some turns, I think that'd be great.

I would like to demonstrate and discuss these movements I'm talking about.
post #3 of 48
SCSA, that was the most informative and lucid post you have ever written. Thank you!

A few points:. The leaning into the hill thing is quite common. I'm not sure it always has to do with the wedge. It seems to be a fear issue.

But why are people fearful? Once again, it all comes back to BALANCE!

To allow one's self to fall into a turn, you must have faith in your own balance and stability. The reason many people do not trust their balance, is simply because they do not have it. There are dozens of reasons why this is so, but Im not going to hijack your thread to discuss it. But check this out: http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...&f=11&t=000041

BTW, I've been taught the "Falling into the Turn" concept by many non PMTS instructors. If there is one thing that Harb should be credited for, is making public more aware of the concept of a kinetic chain of events that happens when you ski. Again, most instructors teach this anyway, but it was good business savy on Harb's part to capitilize on this concept, and bring it into the conscious part of the skiing public's mind!

In a sense, what you are saying about "letting the skis do the turn", can relate to Slider's thread about ski design. If someone does not have the proper balance to allow this to hapen, they are almost fighting with the ski design. Perhaps that is what leads to injury!

You also mentioned that a turn is a lateral thing, starting at the feet. But I noted in another thread http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...&f=11&t=000026 that most people find themselves seriously lacking in their lateral stability. That could explain the leaning into the hill phenomenom.
Once again, thank you.
post #4 of 48
I've leaned into the turn until I have fallen over. Skiing is like being a teenager again - you gotta push the limits (thats why it's so much fun isn't it?).

You never know how far you can go until you try. (not only applicable to skiing)

post #5 of 48
SCSA, it sounds like what you were doing before is what Harb calls the "Super Phantom Move". Or am I misunderstanding you?
post #6 of 48

Keep going mate you are starting on the most important phase of breaking through to "skiing the slow line fast" as BB describes it. Your mind is open to feedback and your body is responding.

Feel the movements starting from the feet is SOOOOO important. Analysing the feelings and applying the textbook technique is the breakthrough stage.

Vary the terrain and slope pitch and feel the rythmn. Use music and "inner beat" to assist you to relax into the moves.

Thanks for sharing your progressive experience. It is fantastic to listen to the learning from the "learners" side.


I think the biggest factor in not "flowing down the hill" is FEAR and not BALANCE. i.e. Defensive skiing + too much rote learned technique. Sort of riding the brake pedal all the time for a false security.

Balance is very important but the FEAR "chicken" comes before the BALANCE "egg". One cannot learn "ski balance" until the brake pedal is released both physically and mentally.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #7 of 48
I wonder if this is one of those "chicken or egg" questions. Many of my students are afraid to attempt the exercises that would help them achieve better balance. So if they are afraid to sit on a stability ball, they would probably be terrified on a ski slope.

But consider this: The transverse abdominals, responsible for stabilty, are supposed to fire PRIOR to any movement. It SHOULD be a reflex. Force generatiion occurs in the transverse, travels down to the feet, back up into the core, and then into the upper body. This is why the kinetic chain concept in works so well in skiing.

But unfortunately, through non functional fitness training, as well as faulty bio- mechanics in our daily lives, we have done many things to interfere with this process. To over simplify, we have trained our external {rectus abdominus} muscles to act as endurance muscles, or postural stabilizers.

But that's not their job. The transverse is supposed to do that. By now they don't have to. So a muscle that is not really up to par is doing the job.

Okay, getting back to fear. So, there are muscle groups that are supposed to make balance instinctual, but we have under utilized them, in favor of muscles that not quiet fit for the job, the instinctual reaction will be...Fear.
post #8 of 48

Sounds like you got a grip on "The Move". Congratulations enjoy it now you can continue the rest of your journey "The Force strong in you young jedi"
post #9 of 48
Sorry one other thing,

Try doing this same move in a wedge turn. you will begin to make perfect demos if you are into that sort of thing.
post #10 of 48


The science may be perfect but the application and the environment is flawed. To allow the instinctive balance to work the pupil must feel safe. To feel safe we must neutralize fear by creating a comfortable teaching environment. Once this is achieved then the fitness\learning process really begins.

Gentler terrain and non-threatening equipment goes a long way to creating a safer environment. A stability ball applied to early in the learning process will scare the hell out of many people and so the point of using a balance ball becomes neutralized by the fear of using it. Likewise for skiing.

Why do many people stay away from the gym or train badly? .... fear\ego\image .... rational or otherwise.

Why do many people ski defensive? .... fear\ego\image .... rational or otherwise.

From SCSA's posts I believe, we are following live, the overcoming of fear\ego\image to achieve his original goals. This is an amazing process unfolding before our eyes.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 17, 2001 04:50 PM: Message edited 2 times, by man from oz ]</font>
post #11 of 48
SCSA, the word regarding your description of where you get to in relation to the slope when you're feeling right about falling into the turn is PERPENDICULAR, not parallel.
post #12 of 48
MOZ, agreed. FYI, we never put people on stability balls before we have done some work to improve their general alignment, and work their stabilizers in a non threatening way.

IMHO, this is one of the problems in ski instruction today. I've ranted about this many times, but on my first ski lesson, the ASC resort took us inside and had us view video clips of Johnny Mosley hucking clifs.

I almost turned around and walked out.

A much better approach would be to have students take of their shoes and feel the alignment and balance in their feet, before they even step outside. Then, have them do the same thing on the snow, in boots only. After that, add skis, and do similar stuff on the flats.

THEN, take them up on the bunny slopes. Teach them the primary skills, but constantly remind and reinforce what they learned on the flats. The sense of balance and stability is a tool that can conquer fear.

Another point; You can have realtively decent balance, but horrific rental equipment can destroy it. Ski Schools really need to get away from that "one boot brand fits all" attitude.
post #13 of 48
Hey, great post, SCSA! We truly are seeing "live" a discovery. It seems that different people get the "aha!" through different receptor [it seems], but I really think your description is very useful for someone to figure out how they're supposed to FEEL when turning. Thanks for the post! and the thread is developing beautifully, especially with the refernces supplied by Lisamarie.
post #14 of 48

I agree with you on all points. It is up to the instructor to attempt to get it right from the start with the equipment and environment supplied. Now that is not always easy, no room, short steep hills, "best deal" hire equipment, creek in the run out zone, “I want them to ski xxx run” etc etc etc.

Another aspect is the husband\wife, boyfriend\girlfriend, dad\kid scenario. He\she skis well and so takes the other party to places they should not be and so actually counter productively works against progress within the partner. It takes a lot of tact to separate the two party’s and so progress them both. I have had much success with the weaker party in progressing them and giving them the strength to take control of their own progression. Sometimes I have lost both customers but this was preferable to creating a non-learning situation. (they just pick up another instructor that is prepared to “do the hours” anyway)

The teaching rewards come non-the less, as they probably do for you as well.

Listening from the wings in SCSA’s case is a teaching reward for all Epic Ski posters.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #15 of 48
The Egans do a clinic for couples on that topic.
One book everyone should read is The Centered Skier, by Denise Mc Cluggage.
post #16 of 48
SCSA you are starting to get it but you have a ways to go in you're understanding of the movements you are trying to describe. All of our discussions on static skiing and early center of mass movements were the focal point of the breakthroughs you are starting to have. When I said that 80% of all instructors don't understand what you are starting to see I don't think that I was incorrect. Kinda hits you in the face don't it. Most skiers see the trees and not the forest. When you truely understand where those movements come from you skiing will take a quantum leap. You will also start to see some of the drawbacks to Harbs approach but gain a greater appreciation for what he has acomplished.
post #17 of 48
Thread Starter 
Kneale is right. The proper description is perpendicular to the hill. That's where I am when I lean over the downhill ski to start a turn.

I think one key phrase here is "skiing while leaning uphill". Skiing while leaning uphill is no-no -- leaning uphill to start a turn is a no-no; not proper skiing technique.

Proper ski technique is to lean over the downhill ski to start a turn. So, we work backwards from there to design a teaching system.

It follows that a teaching system that teaches proper ski technique would not include the wedge turn, because, the wedge turn teaches skiers to lean uphill to make a turn, a direct violation of proper ski technique.

Now have I won my case against the evil wedge turn?
post #18 of 48
Thread Starter 
One thing I really want to do here is to identify what skiing movements really are.

There shouldn't be a gray area! Like, you either do or don't lean downhill to start a turn -- every turn. I mean, there's no reason why we can't, "wrap up and box" just about everything there is to do with a turn.

It's really crapola when I hear, "Oh, sometimes this works, but sometimes you have to do this, or sometimes you have to do that...", blah bla blah! Who can learn this way? Nobody, that's who!

No. The way we're going to do this is to simply narrow skiing down to a few primary movements and concepts. Like, if skiing is turning, and turns are defined, then skiing just becomes a very simple proposition of doing exactly the same thing, turning, all the time. What's so tough about that?

Then, if a guy like me looks at it this way, ya know, it ain't near as hard as it looks in the pictures
post #19 of 48
Let's not get carried away, SCSA!

Congratulations on your revelation, and on your continued learning--it is exciting! But I must say that you have grasped what many of us have been trying to get across for a while--the potential downside of the active weight transfer to the uphill ski before starting a turn, exaggerated by lifting the downhill ski. Yes! It moves you uphill! It moves you uphill LESS if you do it with a narrow stance, but it is still what I call a "negative movement"--a movement in the wrong direction (assuming your desire is to initiate a clean turn downhill).

Now, about that wedge. "Proper technique is to lean over the downhill ski," you say. No, not quite! Proper technique requires your body to be to the INSIDE of your OUTSIDE ski (ie. leaning into the turn). In a wedge, your body and outside ski are already in this arrangement, so you can start a turn with very little movement. A simple guidance of the tips into the turn is all it takes, and the "weight transfer" will take care of itself as the turn progresses, as a result of the forces of the turn.

But let's look closer again at that narrow parallel stance. Both feet are directly beneath the body (there is no lean). To create the correct relationship of the body leaning to the inside, you have literally start falling to the inside--or else push your skis (skidding) to the outside. If you move your body UPHILL to balance on the uphill ski, it makes the problem even worse, and almost invariably results in a skidded twist to start the turn.

It doesn't HAVE to be this way, as you've just discovered. But even you, who skis better than 97% of skiers and who receives coaching and instructon from some of the best in the business, needed a couple years to straighten this out! I'm not trying to detract from your elation, but I'm telling you--a properly taught "evil wedge turn" in the beginning would have eliminated the problem! In a wedge, your body is already downhill of the uphill ski, perfectly aligned for the turn. As it was, you have had to "unlearn" something you were taught.

So--SCSA, I honestly celebrate your breakthrough. May there be many more!

But, um, er, ... I told you so! :

Yes--you have finally won--we all have!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

PS--skied a little with Rich Messer and his group today at Copper, and had some good friendly conversations with a few of the PMTS clinic participants. Si and Rick H--sorry I didn't come across you guys--maybe tomorrow. It was a little crowded, but I hope you guys are having a great clinic.
post #20 of 48
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>[QB]Let's not get carried away[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still a long way too go .... keep going now you are on the right track. Keep the mind open about the many subtle nuances of skiing. There are no "cheat" short cuts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>[QB]a properly taught "evil wedge turn" in the beginning would have eliminated the problem! In a wedge, your body is already downhill of the uphill ski, perfectly aligned for the turn. As it was, you have had to "unlearn" something you were taught.[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no substitute for a solid starting foundation.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 17, 2001 11:53 PM: Message edited 1 time, by man from oz ]</font>
post #21 of 48
Bob, I agree with your wedge assesment. The wedge is not evil.

But, but you can shift your wieght to the uphill ski and move your CM downhill.

It's just a function of which edge you move to. Weight the downhill edge and your CM will move downhill, weight the uphill edge and your CM will move uphill.
post #22 of 48

Congratulations, a breakthrough, small or big is always nice to have!

I would like to raise a question about the idea of leaning into the turn. Does your coach (or PMTS in general) ensure that a lean into the turn is not too close to the concept of banking? I have seen many pictures of the famous "phantom foot" turn where Lito, HH and other are leaning into the turn, but due to lack of angulation they appear to be banking a little.

In other words, to me it feels better to angulate while leaning into the turn to ensure that you avoid outright banking. Angulating also lets you get higher edge angles (which today's shaped skis can certainly support), without risking a fall to the inside.

So the question is do you angulate a little? Does PMTS talk about angulation when talking about the subject of leaning into the turn?
post #23 of 48
Slap Slap Slap to you all. LEANING is an evil word. It means tipping (in our application) from the waist to most folks.

We don't want to tip from the waist. We want to remain upright from the waist and move the center of mass inside. The result FEELS like a tip maybe because there's a pinch at the waist.

If you tip at the waist you get SCSA's incorrect description of being parallel with the hill.
post #24 of 48
Thread Starter 

I am looking at the whole situation through a very narrow lens - my own skiing and how I've learned. But I can tell you it's taken me three years to lean over that damn downhill ski -- to get to the point where I know I won't fall over when doing so.

I have to believe that leaning uphill comes from when my Dad first took me skiing 30 some years ago. He taught me the wedge -- to lean on the uphill ski, then drag the downhill ski over to make a turn. These were the very first movements I learned and I have to believe they were branded. It's taken me three years and 128 ski days to finally rid myself of improper technique I learned my very first days on skis.

Hey, while hanging out with the PMTS crew did you see any turns you liked?

Tom B,

I don't know about banking -- not sure what it is. I'm doing what HH is doing in the 2 video -- relax, lighten and flatten the stance ski. But to get there, it's all been about leaning over the downhill ski -- for me anyway.


But what about my assertion that skiing is all about doing the exact same thing (making turns - and turns are defined), all day, minus the few situations where a "wing it" is needed?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 18, 2001 09:06 AM: Message edited 2 times, by SCSA ]</font>
post #25 of 48

You are right--your father's wedge turns, as you describe them, could also cause the problem. One of my least favorite exercises, one that makes me "see red" when I watch instructors teach a beginner lesson, is the old "Teapot Turn." Hands on the hips, the shoulders lean left ("the teapot pours water out the left side") to turn right, and vice-versa. This sounds like what you described, and you are dead right--it is WRONG for the very reasons you have now discovered. This lean to the outside, too, is a "negative movement"--a movement in the wrong direction.

There is no doubt that wedge turns can be done very wrong, in the sense that they can introduce "dead end movements." And it is also a sad fact that very many instructors still completely misuse the wedge. As I've noted though, the parallel stance is equally prone to misuse--witness the old "GLM" teaching progression. What it all comes down to is not the stance, which is a static concept, but the subject of this thread--skiing MOVEMENTS!

ColdWater--yes, you are correct, it is certainly possible to move into the turn while stepping to the outside ski, especially if you step to its inside edge. This is, apparently, SCSA's revelation! When you do this, your turn starts immediately. It's largely a question of timing. If you step to the new ski first, THEN make a move to start the turn, the weight transfer will cause a "negative movement." Only if there are forces pulling you to the outside--forces resulting from the turn--can you move INTO the turn while your balance point shifts to the outside ski.

Of course, in a real sense, the turn initiation involves not balance, but "falling" into the turn. If we pick up the downhill ski, allowing the weight to shift to the outside ski, and allow ourselves to start falling into the turn, the move is quite appropriate.

But how many beginners are going to allow themselves to do this? It is a very dynamic move, requiring skill and accuracy of movement that beginners just don't have, and most importantly, it requires absolute faith that your skis are going to come around and "catch" you before you hit the ground. What beginner has that kind of faith?

So my point isn't that the move itself is wrong, but that it is very likely to backfire for beginners. That's why the wedge stance can be so effective. It allows the skier to form the needed relationship between his body and his outside ski, while maintaining the security of the other ski underneath him. As the turn progresses, the weight will transfer toward the outside ski, due to speed and inertial forces, as well as gravity in the second half of the turn.

Or perhaps it won't! Perhaps the skier, like very many beginners, will feel more comfortable with both feet firmly planted on the ground throughout the turn. That's all right! Even years ago, when we really did want to develop true "one-footed" skiing eventually, skis still turned just fine with some weight on the inside ski. Today, while we still want balance to develop to the point that the skier CAN balance exclusively on one foot, World Cup racers continually demonstrate that you can turn on either foot, or both feet.

SCSA--to your final question, "But what about my assertation that skiing is all about doing the exact same thing (making turns - and turns are defined), all day, minus the few situations where a "wing it" is needed?" I guess my only disagreement would be in how rare the "wing it" situation is! In many ways, almost every turn represents a bit of a "wing-it" situation.

Instructors have long spoken of developing both "habitual skills" and "perceptual skils." Habitual skills are what you describe--doing the same thing over and over, the same way, without thinking about it. Perhaps the best example would be linked slalom turns on perfectly groomed, even terrain. "Perceptual skills" deal with movements that are adjusted according to perception and feedback during the turn. Moguls, obviously, and especially medium-radius turns in moguls, would involve highly-developed perceptual skills. (Competitive mogul skiing, by-the-way, where the bumps are sculpted into a very regular pattern, come closer to involving only habitual skills. That's why I'm not a big fan....)

My assertion is that in "normal skiing," there are enough variables that almost every turn involves perceptual skills. Snow conditions, speed, steepness, skiers and other obstacles--there are so many variables that no two turns are ever going to be quite the same. And that doesn't even get into varying skier INTENT and MOOD. "Sometimes you feel like a nut...."

You are correct that we must practice habitual skills. To do that, we seek an environment as free of variables as possible, and try to hammer in a particular movement pattern. That's important. But it is PRACTICING--not SKIING. There's a difference!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

PS--Yes--many good turns! And I'm on my way up to see some more.... Where are you, by-the-way, SCSA? I had hoped to run into you....

On a final note--IT IS SNOWING in Summit County!
post #26 of 48
In Harb's latest video, he demonstrates a move that he calls "The Super Phantom Move". No, really. Anyways, it is for making fall line type turns on steeps. It is transfering weight to the uphill edge of the new outside (stance) ski, then tipping the new inside (free) ski to it's little toe side. This seems to extend the duration of the "flat ski period" of the turn, allowing the skis to pivot down the hill. This results in a classic short swing type turn, but the edge engagement happens earlier, just as the skis are pointed down the fall line. The rest of the turn is highly carved. No mention is made of upper body anticipation, probably because with shaped skis (especially with as much sidecut as Harb uses) it's not really that necessary even in these fall line turns. Obviously nothing new technique-wise, but an interesting departure from all other PMTS teachings that I've seen. Actually, Harb mentions that this is the move that Lito has been teaching.
post #27 of 48
Interesting, Miles--

What you've described is the old "Inside-Outside" move that racers used to use, usually combined with a diverging step (aka "scissor step" or "skating step"). It's a weight transfer from the inside edge of the downhill ski to the outside edge of the uphill ski.

But this move is usually associated with LONG-radius turns, and would have been used in a GS course, for example, where the gates are far offset across the hill. As you say, it extends the glide phase between turns, delaying the initiation. It is not a move I would associate with short-radius, fall-line turns at all. I'll go play with it....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 18, 2001 11:21 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #28 of 48
Thread Starter 

A clarification is needed. Yes, I am practicing the Super Phantom Move.

I am still shifting weight uphill. But how I get there is to lean over the downhill ski.

In the 2 video, HH talks about starting turns with your downhill ski. I'm totally focused on it. But, maybe it's just me, I was still leaning uphill and that's what HH pointed out. So, in order to get away from leaning uphill, I'm thinking about leaning downhill -- that trust. How I do that is to roll my downhill ski flat. When I do this, my body CM does actually move and I'm leaning over my downhill ski.

A breakthrough for me was how HH showed me on snow - really hard to describe here. Soon, I'll be posting video. When I do, I'll be able to explain things so much easier.

Couldn't make Copper. I'm a spoiled, weekday skier.

Am interested to see your observations on the turns being made by the PMTS crew. Are they different? How do they compare to "other" turns? Please report as much as possible!

I would just have to see students that were taught those wedge turns (proper) you speak of -- watch their skiing to see if their skills are proper.

On turning, I know in my world, there really is only 1 turn. Yes, there are certain situations and conditions that require "an adjustment to the plan". But, I really can say that 95% of the time, I'm just doing the same thing, over and over.
post #29 of 48
Bob B,

I was not able to make the clinic. I had a major dose of sciatica. I was in doubt if I could even carry my skis to the lift. It's getting better with anti-inflamatory and lots of stretching. I am about to try to ski again at Loveland, probably Tuesday. I'll have to see. I got in some turns a week ago Friday. The excersize didn't seem to affect the back. I'll now have to try to see what effect skiing has on my back.
post #30 of 48
Congrats SCSA! As a ski teacher, I can't help but be excited about breakthroughs in skiing. I'm especially fond of the one your talking about, as the team of ski pros I work with teaches a very similiar move in similiar ways to the way you've learned it.

That said, you've also hit on a couple of my sore spots for ski technique.
1. proper, proper, proper. As I read through this thread, I noticed this word way too many times. IT just doesn't belong in play. Skiing is great fun, amazing adventure, and constantly changing play with the mountain. Proper means there is something improper, and in skiing, sliding down the slippery hill in any way is sweet. I've skied with way too many great skiers, skiing in a variety of ways to think there is one be all, end all turn.
From a teaching perspective, we definitely try to create a progression that doesn't have dead end movements. I imagine thats why BB sees red lights when teachers use the teapot turn. It's a dead end movement. But is that improper? No. that skier is just out to play and have fun. Don't lose sight of that.

2. Every turn, exactly the same. Boy, I ski 125 days a year (and have be doing so for more years than I can count on my hands), and if every turn was the same, I sure woundn't be living in the mountains anymore. one reason so many of us come back year after year is the constantly changing mountain environment and the endless ways to enjoy playing in it. A wize man once said, "Variety is the spice of life", and with ever changing snow, skis and attitudes (to name a few variables) skiing definity has variety.
In my personal skiing, I am constantly trying to flow with the will of the mountain. The terrain(snow, etc.) asks for a shape, speed, rhythm and if I've skied top to bottom and listened to those ques, I may not have made the same turn twice.

Anyway, enough of my rant. Once again, congrats on your breakthrough. Good luck on the path of mastery. Aint skiing a blast.

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