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Bumps and line selection, ski bumps like a pro - Page 22

post #631 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post


7 Listen to the skier when the skier impacts the mogul the less noise the better the skiing.
 



Mogul Impact Noise is one of the most important indicators of skiing ability. I saw some dude at Jane today trip up and face plant in the bumps and at first I thought he sucked, but when I heard how quietly his body hit the next bump I realized he was actually skiing at a very high level.
post #632 of 654
At least now I understand your theory and approach to mogul skiing. To be honest with you, much of what you're telling me is close to my approach, other than when skiing our famous bullet proof ice moguls. Slamming tips into the tops of ice bumps and trying too load the front of the skis doesn't always go well. I guess that's the luxury of skiing western moguls. For me, skiing bumps at a place like Mary Jane or Breck is like taking candy from a baby. It's a totally different approach.

I think of myself carving somewhat even while skiing zipperline. My mogul warmups and practice take place on Blue groomers practicing quick scarve turns and also working on quick hands and pole flicks. I agree that it's nice to be quiet on your skis. I think everyone wants that. Quiet is smooth. And while I agree it's better to be agressive and be in control in moguls or anywhere for that matter, it's imperitive to be able to adjust to the changing conditions and slope changes, line changes where different technique gives you the edge, not the hill.

Maybe the biggest difference, I like to think my feet dictate where the pole plants are most of the time. The other way you suggest seem like blocking plants or in my book, defensive plants for balance and direction. Is that what you are suggesting? Anyhow cvj, at least I understand what you are about now. This makes more sense than seeing who can pee the farthest.

If you are joey, I've met you a few times. Been a while though.
post #633 of 654
  1. By blocking pole plants all i'm saying is that it is a kind of drill to keep momentum and the hips leading down the hill. Helping the COM stay in the fall line. Another thing that we practice is trying to have the pendulum affect from the knees down. After the skier has felt this feeling the skier needs to polish the technique to refine so that it is not noticeable that this is what the skier is doing.

Like all these different techniques  it takes time to perfect. This is what keeps us striving to become better skiers.
post #634 of 654
Quote:
cvj wrote:

Like all these different techniques  it takes time to perfect. This is what keeps us striving to become better skiers.

Practice and experimenting with the movements/timing of my technique/mechanics hopefully result in a "what was that" moment and it usually happens at the finish of the turn/transition.  Feeling that little extra "pop" on release without exerting any extra energy for example or even exerting less energy.  The smooth continuous fluidity of motion/mechanics seamlessly linking turns/energy while projecting the chest directly down the fall line, fully committed to the following turn whether skiing the groomed or natural terrain.

Is it skiing, or is it practice? 

Continuity of motion/energy is very difficult to obtain when skiing the zipperline, even on a man made course where the moguls are tightly/evenly spaced as the skier must sometimes go "static" and wait or hesitate until they reach the mogul wall below them.  This can be seen, even at the WC level. A rewarding advantage realized when skiing the technical line is that the skier never hesitates as they are constantly executing a turn, never waiting for the terrain to allow them to fully load their skis or engage their tips to initiate a new turn. 

Continual fluid motion describes the skiing experience for me  I don't like to wait in lift lines, yet alone waiting when challenging the best lines on the mountain.
post #635 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post



Practice and experimenting with the movements/timing of my technique/mechanics hopefully result in a "what was that" moment and it usually happens at the finish of the turn/transition.  Feeling that little extra "pop" on release without exerting any extra energy for example or even exerting less energy.  The smooth continuous fluidity of motion/mechanics seamlessly linking turns/energy while projecting the chest directly down the fall line, fully committed to the following turn whether skiing the groomed or natural terrain.

Is it skiing, or is it practice? 

Continuity of motion/energy is very difficult to obtain when skiing the zipperline, even on a man made course where the moguls are tightly/evenly spaced as the skier must sometimes go "static" and wait or hesitate until they reach the mogul wall below them.  This can be seen, even at the WC level. A rewarding advantage realized when skiing the technical line is that the skier never hesitates as they are constantly executing a turn, never waiting for the terrain to allow them to fully load their skis or engage their tips to initiate a new turn. 

Continual fluid motion describes the skiing experience for me  I don't like to wait in lift lines, yet alone waiting when challenging the best lines on the mountain.

 

I don't think that's completely accurate nail. While this may be true for some, it's certainly not true for those really good bump skiers out there. Instead of going static as you say, good bumpers will throw another turn in there to keep the rythym and line continous, or air it out to the next mogul instead of waiting till the next mogul. A tip which has been suggested a few times by myself here and other mogul threads over the months.

The whole thing here, and the cruxt of this whole thread is basically stated in your first paragraph. And it all boils down to this, obviously you are happy with your progression with this technique and are comfortable using it. If you are satisfied with your mogul teechnique at the end of the day, the smile on your face says it all.

Same goes for those of us out here who love the way we approach mogul skiing and are comfortable with the way we ski them. The way I choose to ski them is my perogative. I let terrain dictate the way I ski moguls and the method that works best for my comfort zone. I've felt over the years that my success at skiing moguls, and really skiing in general, has been to use all my skills and the various techniques i've learned over the years to accomplish the task at hand. I don't try to force one technique to bring the mountain to it's knees. I adapt my skiing to what the mountain lets me have. I adapt to the conditions of the moguls.

If you can ski every mogul run using the same technique every time top to bottom, God Bless You. It's a great feeling to bring a run to it's knees. A hoot and a fist pump right? That's why we are always looking for the perfect line. The line that suits our technique and style the best. The line that allows us to hide our weaknesses so they don't rear their ugly heads and make us bail. Fact is, that perfect line and that perfect run down it will more than likely be different by the time you take the lift back up to ski it again. Adapt to the change. Be ready for it. Be ready for anything. It would get boring if it was easy all the time.

So, I'd rather ski the zipperline when it's possible. Maybe it's not the best technique. Maybe it is. You'd rather ski the over the top technique all the time. It's a great technique. I don't agree it's the more technical approach but we agree to disagree. that's ok. I strongly think everyone who takes a liking to mogul skiing get good at as many techniques as they can and be open to applying them or be ready to use all of them at any given time to be successful at skiing moguls. Whether it's here in the  icey East or out West in the powdery pureness. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. You'll fall and smash them all.

Bump on everyone.
post #636 of 654
Seems to me that the zipper lining is where all the eggs are in the same basket. Nobody says all the time as we continue to hear. Use all the Mt. when skiing. There's is no line but the fall line. This is adapting to what ever the skiers are skiing all over the moguls and the best fall line is straight down the Mt. Taking the moguls as they come.

Easy is the pitch of the run and the steeper the run the more the skier will want a bag of tricks such as banking of the side ski over the top and yes the zipper line.

Hide the skier weaknesses. Why not improve the skiers skiing to become a better skier and have no or little weakness. This would improve all of skiing and maybe then the skier will realize that technique is the key to open up more of the Mt. or sport of skiing into different avenues such as racing, back country or even better mogul skiing. Even a better line skiing above the fall line.

No need to hoot or pump the skiers fist as the personal satisfaction that the skier brought the run to it's knees will be enough.

Saying the good bumpers throw another turn in is stretching the truth to me. If there is no zipper how does the skier through another turn in? Do you mean a knee wiggle?
post #637 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

Seems to me that the zipper lining is where all the eggs are in the same basket. Nobody says all the time as we continue to hear. Use all the Mt. when skiing. There's is no line but the fall line. This is adapting to what ever the skiers as re skiing not just skiing the zipper line.

Easy is the pitch of the run and the steeper the run the more the skier will want a bag of tricks such as banking of the side ski over the top and yes the zipper line.

Hide the skier weaknesses. Why not improve the skiers skiing to become a better skier and have no or little weakness. This would improve all of skiing and maybe then the skier will realize that technique is the key to open up more of the Mt. or sport of skiing into different avenues such as racing, back country or even better mogul skiing. Even a better line skiing above the fall line.

No need to hoot or pump the skiers fist as the personal satisfaction that the skier brought the run to it's knees will be enough.

Saying the good bumpers throw another turn in is stretching the truth to me. If there is no zipper how does the skier through another turn in?
 

Absolutely, improve the skiers skiing. Even strong skiers on the groomed will show weakness in the bumps. You know that. The bumps will reveal that weakness. Whatever it is, don't you think.

I  do think it's a good tip to throw a turn in between gaps in moguls to keep your rythym going. It helps to keep speed control and it's better than slip sliding into the next mogul or stopping to start again. Of course, if you are skiing over the tops, you don't need to do this do you?

Why are you so against those who zipperline? Why do you think it's not good skiing? For someone who has made a living off mogul skiing, why be detrimental to those who love it?
post #638 of 654
Have skied more groomed over the years than you can shake a stick at and so have our kids. This is why they have made improvements to there overall skiing. Just skiing the zipper the skier will become stagnant. IMO

Agree that this would improve skiing in general.

Not against the zipper line at all but skiers need to do it all. Ski more of the mt. and release the prisoner of the zippper.

Skiing over the tops you will throw in many extra turns as there is more opportunity to throw in these turns that art referred to.
post #639 of 654
A little video to check out look at the 14 year old that is understanding the technique the most this year and he has improved his skiing 10 fold.

Skier is banking off the sides of the moguls. the last run was a competition run. At about 6:19 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9Atq0dqEk
Edited by cvj - 3/20/10 at 8:00am
post #640 of 654
So are you coming to Mammoth in April or May?
post #641 of 654
Thanks for the offer Joe, I'm out for sure as somehow in this economic mess I find myself working again. 
post #642 of 654
I totally agree with that.  I also ski over the tops at times, but generally in the rut because it's smoother (yes, over the tops is harder and slower).  But to me the hit on WC is not the "zipperline" per se, but that the speed/technique is made possible by the fake moguls.  While you can rationalize that WC bump skiing is a "course," this is contrary to the original spirit of the 70s - I just don't like fake (but I don't also like ridiculous, metal banisters built on the middle of a ski hill).  Maybe if they put alternating blue and red flags on the top of each bump I could accept it better.

However, its all about getting people to watch, so it is what it is....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

Be the boss of the Mt. by turning anywhere you want to not where the mogul says turn. This is why freestyle started in the 70,s because racing the skiers had to turn in a certain spot while mogul skiing the skiers turned where they wanted. Seems that now it is just a SL flush that the gates where pulled and the skier is being told where to turn by the bump.

Edited by John Lyon - 3/20/10 at 7:40pm
post #643 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

So are you coming to Mammoth in April or May?
What weekend in May is good? Looking forward to skiing Mammoth again how's the snow cover?
post #644 of 654
Any weekend is good, I am usually there, let me know which one you want and I will be there.  Closing in on 500 inches of snow.  April is usually good for a storm or two, so May shoould be good. Earlier part of the month might be better so that more terrain is open.
post #645 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Any weekend is good, I am usually there, let me know which one you want and I will be there.  Closing in on 500 inches of snow.  April is usually good for a storm or two, so May shoould be good. Earlier part of the month might be better so that more terrain is open.
May is going to be good maybe the 2nd or 3rd week would work. Let me know how to get in touch? Think this would be an eye opener for both sides of the line debate. To see in person how the different lines will bring about some different results when skiing above and below the fall line. Because all the best skiers in the world ski above and below the only line the FALL LINE.

Skiing Squaw this week for U.S. Nationals and it was 60 degrees yesterday and perfect corn snow.
post #646 of 654
Joe Smith Crawford says he will join us in May.

We will be skiing the high line.
post #647 of 654
Sounds good to me. Jere is there all spring.
post #648 of 654

Great analysis. I just want to add one more important tip. You got to slide in the moguls. Don't edge but slide. Moguls are like offensive football. Take what they give, turn where the moguls tell you turn. The turns are in the lines shown in the article above. Moguls take a long time to get good at depending on how many times a year you ski. But when you get good at them they really are a form of expression. I slide and bump, slide and bump.

post #649 of 654

Another point is that some bump skiers ski over bumps while some ski around them. Its much simpler to ski around them but requires more skill. When you ski around them you stay in the troughs and sort of brake - edge - into the bump's side. By doing that you build up the bump. You can tell when good bump skiers have skiied a field four or five runs. The moguls have a nice shape to them and theirs a constant trough line. On the other hand beginning bump skiers leave their mark  to. The field is much more broken up. Good bumpers form the bumps as they ski them.

post #650 of 654

Bumps are for younger people in IMO. They can be a real work out whether you ski around or over the bumps. I think its easier if you ski them more slowly.

 

The only way to learn them is on a blue hill. Its rare to find it, but some blue hills have bumps. Start there, ski the troughs, and remember to slide into the side of the bump.

post #651 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosser View Post

Bumps are for younger people in IMO.
 

 

Huh?!? Izzat really true? I'm in trouble now!
 

post #652 of 654
Thread Starter 

There is no denying that age works against you in the bumps. Its for younger people to ripp and play. However, if you master good skiing technique, you are fit and without any serious injuries and you know what line to ski then you can enjoy bumps as much as anyone. Im actually able to ski bumps better now than 20y ago due to serious back problems then.

 

Prosser, yes, into the bumps sides. Look for those piles of snow. Ski where the snow is. Avoid scraped patches of ice if you can.

post #653 of 654

I skied the bump pretty well last year at the age of 60. While I seriously doubt I ripped them all the time but I did have my moments when the conditions were right. Proper technique, and good physical conditioning makes it easier for sure. Knowing what line to take in certain conditions and using a full bag of tricks to ski them as well as hanging with the "kids" keeps me young. I still ski moguls more than any other terrain. So, it's not just for young people.

post #654 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

It's Chuck Martin BTW, and if you notice the line he's skiing it over the top and backsides using absorbsion and extension for speed control. The same line you have pointed out but using a more effective and efficient way of doing it. You will struggle using your technique in crud and powder bumps for the simple reason getting your skis to far sideways to control speed and your hands as far out to the side as in your video will get you backseat and you will have to bail every 20 bumps or so.

I'm just trying to get you to realize as well as the readers out there that what you are preaching isn't new and by showing a different perspective of efficient mogul skiing, there is more than one way to ski moguls and be sucessful. That SVMM isn't the best or only way to ski. Nothing against you personally just your idea that SVMM is the save all for mogul skiing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post


Smart is a deflecting rut slammer who pivots his turns.  Why is it he doesn't/can't hold the line over the tops?  He uses the constraining "stacked position", SVMM skiers utilized heavy angulation and to make a round turn getting the feet out wide laterally from the body.  This doesn't correlate to the stacked position. Just listen to Smart's own description of speed control in the video above, he says 50% of speed control is done through ABSORBTION.  100% of speed control with SVMM is done with the QCT.  There are no similarities linking the 2 techniques.  Why do you continue to attempt to link the 2 techniques.  SVMM is still, after 30 years, the cutting edge technique to navigate natural expert terrain.
 


Boys, boys...

 

Although, I do have to say that I think we were into SVMM back in 1976... This is me, young, hands wide, etc.

 

 

We drove tips when needed, skied 'zipperline' when it was fun, and skied just the tops (braking by what we called, 'thumping'.

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