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Bumps and line selection, ski bumps like a pro - Page 16

post #451 of 654
Quote:
Lars wrote:

Bring it on. I can take it. "Sheriff Lars" I like that.

You've missed the point all along haven't you Nail. The fact is, I'm just trying to get you to expand your abilities by telling you the truth that concentrating on one technique in moguls is limiting yourself to overall success when it comes to varied conditions and oddly spaced, formed moguls.

If you don't want my help that's fine. You're only hurting yourself. And that of others who think one technique or method learned will make them an awesome mogul skier.

I thought some light humor was needed, I am glad you appreciated it.

I stated above that I agree with you that a mogul skier needs all the tools in his bag.  I'll deflect, skid, slam, pivot or whatever it takes to hold the line, although use them sparingly,  my preferred tool is the brushed carved turn which needs to be used down the technical line to be most efficiently used gaining the skier the smoothest speed control, resulting in dynamic skiing.  We just have different favorite tools in our bags that we prefer to use most effectively.

You don't ever give me or CVJ credit for our understanding of rut line skiing technique.  Look at my boys video again, do you think he's just getting lucky with his technique or the speed he's successfully carrying and posting the results he's getting while competing in the zipperline game?  Just because I don't support the current format or judging criteria, doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.  We're playing the game in it's current format the best we can, it doesn't mean there will be no changes in the future as I can see where improvements/refinements could be made.
post #452 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthbender View Post

You know Lars, the only mogul skiing authorities not backing up their "bull slinging" on this thread with video are you, Carl97, and Joemammoth.  Funny how that works now isn't it?

 



Hey Truthbender
 
Biggest difference is, myself, Lars and Joe aren’t selling a new skiing method. You and cvj are doing the selling. Quite frankly, your skiing and instruction isn’t up to par with other instructional vids out there.  Having an internet ski off with your biggest distracters still does not change this fact. In fact, its reminds me of something a 13 year old girl would do.
 
Any body who wants to do laps with me on the bump fields is more than welcome. I have done this with skiers from other forums. The only exceptions would prolly be you guys, the SVMM folks, seem too uptight about things.
 
I’ve stayed here longer than I should. You want to talk more about this; you know where you can find me, over at ms.net. We can finish the discussion about your bathing habits.

Edited by jack97 - 2/18/10 at 3:04pm
post #453 of 654
Quote:
Jack97 wrote:

Any body who wants to do laps with me on the bump fields is more than welcome. I have done this with skiers from other forums. The only exceptions would prolly be you guys, the SVMM folks, seem too uptight about things.

Jack, I've got no interest in lapping zipperlines with you, I'm sure as a competitor coached by a former 2 time Olympian you are very capable of ripping the zipperline.  Whether you attack the line with a pivot/skid or a shovel initiated deflected carved turn would be of some interest however.  Post a zipperline video while you are at it I guess.

I'm really most interested your ability and skill level to hold the technical line while carrying speed, I know what it takes.  You have made several comments on my technique that I disagree with, leading me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about because you don't have the developed skill set to hold the technical line while carrying speed.  It would be great for you to post a video taken by your WC coach showing me the proper tuning mechanics and body position while holding the technical line and carrying speed.  Your a competent skier, show me the video and help me refine my technique.  You can hold the technical line can't you?
post #454 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post



I object and call out some Chick, that as far as I know can't even ski, that tells me to "let it go and go skiing" and Sheriff Lars is offended, you are laughable and make no sense, maybe it's to much rut slamming.


 

  I have a sticker on my helmet for guys like you.... Yes, I may be a girl, but I'm ahead of you.  
So you don't know if I can ski.  Well I don't have a formal resume or any video to post (i think I've had my husband videotape me once in all my years skiing)...so here you go.   
 I've been on skis since I was  4 or 5... had a dad who was ski patrol who taught me (and all of my friends) to ski (which also meant I lived at Loveland because when he worked...we skied).  I ended up skiing mostly with boys because my girlfriends couldn't keep up or didn't want to ski the terrain I wanted to ski (or it was too cold for them).   Skied a few mogul comps for fun when I was a teen... was asked by one of the Aguirre brothers at a Steamboat comp if I was on a mogul team... when I said no... he said I should join the WP freestlye team.  (my parents couldn't afford it...plus I was working towards getting a tennis scholarship and skiing was just for fun. Sometimes I think I missed my calling.)  Skied alongside the Breck freestyle team a few times as I had made friends with a few of them and they let me tag along... I hiked up and skied down A-basin's East Wall on one of my birthdays (can't recall which one) A total blast and I'm glad I did it.   
 eastwall.jpg
Am a technically perfect?  Heck no. Far from it I am sure. But I think I can hold my own.   Do I have fun when I ski?  Hell yes.   That was the point I was trying to make to you.  You've found a way to enjoy skiing moguls without hurting your knees/back/whatever...so why not just share your experiences on what you enjoy and have discovered (sans slamming what others do and have been doing for years).  
  Rah rah rah!   

One question...who says that SVMM is the "cutting edge" of mogul skiing?  I can't seem to find anyone but you making that claim.  Oh and you constantly talk about holding speed, I don't remember seeing much speed in your videos.   I'm not super speedy either, but I don't claim to be. 
post #455 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthbender View Post

You don't ever give me or CVJ credit for our understanding of rut line skiing technique. 

 

from your other posts, lets see.....

your observation about mogul skiers hand postion... wrong

your observation about mogul skiers planting at the toe.... wrong

your observation on back seat skiing and pivoting..... wrong

you observation about aiming the toe piece at the upcoming bump... wrong



Credit in terms of credibility has to be earn not given ;)  You want to talk about this some more bring it up at the other site.


 
post #456 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthbender View Post


 You can hold the technical line can't you?
 

As you have no interest in the direct line (you can ski that line rigtht?) I have no interest in the "technical line".
post #457 of 654
Hey JM,

I actually live in So Cal now and if that offer goes for me too, that might be fun some time.  Most of my skiing is still Colorado, but I make to Mammoth at least a couple times of year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

NB, you guys crack me up. I checked out your other website too, got a good chuckle over there .  If you are ever out in Cali look me up I would love to ski around the mountain with you.  Bring your kids too, we have skiing till early June usually so, you can train and ski bumps and steeps into summer.
post #458 of 654

Hey John,

That would be great if you are up there. We are usually up there most weekends, excluding holidays.  Sometimes there is a decent posse of bumpers out there, especially in the Spring when we get some good lines going down West Bowl. PM me and I will give you my contact info.

post #459 of 654
I think it's laughable that a few people here don't seem to think Carmichael and Martin as well as the multitude of good bumpers out there can't ski well enough or posess the ability to ski bumps the way nail and followers do. The so called Technical line.

The question is, why would you want to? Good mogul skiers are good everywhere, not just the bumps.

On the other hand, not all good skiers are good bump skiers.

Is it Bushwacker in PA that has a signature that says, "It's not that you can't ski bumps, it's just that you can't ski, and the bumps prove it"

And when skiers aren't technically good enough to ski moguls the proper way, ripping the zipperline. They search for easier ways to navigate them. They call it something else. They even call it the more technical line. they even think one should level up to reach lofty goals of skiing moguls and surviving by different methods. But in all reality, it's just an alternative to real mogul skiing.

But, in all reality, sometimes runs are steep, gnarly, icy, oddly spaced, triangular piles of slab. There aren't any decent lines to be had. Do you quit and head to the groomed? Heck no. You do the best you can which requires some over the top, backside, sideways, slipslide, some zipper, and some air.

And the bottom line is always about personal gratification. Feeling good about the way you skied the run, or hoping to hell no one you knows saw you survive that run. Ya, you got to the bottom but you didn't really ski it.

Realistically everyone, Compare the two methods. Do you want to look and ski like the World Cuppers? Or like Nail?
post #460 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Realistically everyone, Compare the two methods. Do you want to look and ski like the World Cuppers? Or like Nail?

Interesting question Lars, I started a poll in a new thread to find out the answer. Let you voices be heard.
post #461 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post




Interesting question Lars, I started a poll in a new thread to find out the answer. Let you voices be heard.
The non technical talk is evidence of the knowledge of real skiing that is lacking.

SVMM has been doing a poll of it's own for a long time. Average skiers say over and over that the zipper line is to much of a beating for most average skiers.

That is the truth of the matter.

Bring your ok pole grip, wait for the mogul to plant it late in the turn so the skier has to slam the bottom of the rut, use lots of lead change, and stay in the zipper line as this is all this skier knows. P.S. be very direct as IMO direct is how fast I went not a myth of straight down. Now that's LOL.





Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

NB, you guys crack me up. I checked out your other website too, got a good chuckle over there .  If you are ever out in Cali look me up I would love to ski around the mountain with you.  Bring your kids too, we have skiing till early June usually so, you can train and ski bumps and steeps into summer. I stand by  my analysis of your skiing, if you see and your buds see something else and that works for you, keep leveling up then. Not gonna waste my time trying to be civil to people who are  ignorant to others.  You can try to pass off your rudeness as being blunt, but that does not fly with me.
Thought that Newport Beach is where you hang out . P.S. have skied joemammoth's home area many times in the spring. Seems that I've seen some post that you quit bumping because of health issues about 7 years ago. Only in 1990's were the mogul skiers the best with the best skiers inventing the man made moguls that stifled the sport of moguls.

When in May or June would work for skiing at mammoth with all your posse? This time of year will work. Please advise.

All you repeat is rude respect ect. Again no substance to your debate. Go hide at MS>net with the rest of your crones.
post #462 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

I think it's laughable that a few people here don't seem to think Carmichael and Martin as well as the multitude of good bumpers out there can't ski well enough or posess the ability to ski bumps the way nail and followers do. The so called Technical line.

The question is, why would you want to? Good mogul skiers are good everywhere, not just the bumps.

On the other hand, not all good skiers are good bump skiers.

Is it Bushwacker in PA that has a signature that says, "It's not that you can't ski bumps, it's just that you can't ski, and the bumps prove it"

And when skiers aren't technically good enough to ski moguls the proper way, ripping the zipperline. They search for easier ways to navigate them. They call it something else. They even call it the more technical line. they even think one should level up to reach lofty goals of skiing moguls and surviving by different methods. But in all reality, it's just an alternative to real mogul skiing.

But, in all reality, sometimes runs are steep, gnarly, icy, oddly spaced, triangular piles of slab. There aren't any decent lines to be had. Do you quit and head to the groomed? Heck no. You do the best you can which requires some over the top, backside, sideways, slipslide, some zipper, and some air.

And the bottom line is always about personal gratification. Feeling good about the way you skied the run, or hoping to hell no one you knows saw you survive that run. Ya, you got to the bottom but you didn't really ski it.

Realistically everyone, Compare the two methods. Do you want to look and ski like the World Cuppers? Or like Nail?
Talk about how zipper liners can ski every where. You say again again zipper line is more technical, with very little technique about how to do it. Instead of attacking anyone with a different opinion try to convince us that you have some technical advise behind the myths and half truths that are perpetuated on Ms.net.

Example would be as when Killy brought the french technique to light people thought he skied on the back 2 inches of his ski. When in reality that was only a split second of where he ended his turn. The french technique was about avalement which means to swallow the bump with absorption. IMO bumpers have many of these half truths in the flawed advise about mogul skiing.

Shoot the messenger is all I hear. We all are having fun skiing and talking about it but seems that zipper liners have a corner on it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post



I agree competitions on natural moguls with broken rut lines are much more exciting to watch, as each run is different and really exposes the skiers technical turning deficiences.  Did you see the large groomed/flat sections between the moguls at the Olympics from the aerial cam, it was hardly representative of a natural mogul run?

The skiers in the Look Ma video are all exposing their inability to utilize a technically sound brushed carved turn to control speed and resort to slamming the mogul faces with both feet and attempt to control the impact with body absorption, primitive skiing.  None of the skiers can consistently link/hold the backside turn when they get launched from the impact and highlights their inability to initiate their turn with their tips/shovels, they are in the backseat and lack shovel pressure having used all their flex during absorption and have nothing left to retract their skis beneath them at the turn finish to apply the needed shovel pressure.

I have skied on Look Ma several times and didn't have problems linking/completing the backside turn in these nasty moguls, neither did the other Sun Valley skiers.  Sure it was a challenge while carrying speed, but quite doable.  The skiers in the video lack the developed turning skills needed, it's a simple as that, they are not making round brushed turns to dump speed, they are zipperline slamming or in some cases mogul face slamming. 
We have also skied Look Ma the top 3 turns are steep then the rest of the run is low angle skiing at best. 

Lars still waiting to hear how a skier somewhat carves?

When ever some one asks about something technical no one answers just say rude and no respect. Keep it technical based for everyone's sanity.

Would you want to ski like BMM or Nails would be better to compare? Then WC technique that MS.net says has no real technical method.

You say we are here to sell a method. Wrong. The idea is for debate which method works best and that has been debated for 40 years with many generations over the 40 years.
post #463 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post


 
Hand position MS.net elbows in and hands narrow. SVMM elbows out and hands wider for balance.

Planting the pole wait for the back side of the mogul. SVMM plant on the top of the mogul or tip of the ski on groomed.

Back seat with pivot skid because every picture the skis are flat and tips of the ski are in the air coming over the bump. SVMM ski engages with the tip 1st and follows the mogul up and down to be high in the C or ski above the fall line.

Aiming at the toe piece don't understand please explain.

The other site is the issue of misinformation that perpetuates the ignorance.
post #464 of 654
Quote:
Carl97 wrote:

As you have no interest in the direct line (you can ski that line rigtht?) I have no interest in the "technical line".

Thanks for the candid answer Carl.  Neither did I, nor would I expect you to be able to ski the technical line proficiently.  You are concentrating your efforts on the zipperline game and I understand why, it's the current WC format in which you intend to succeed.  The jumping practice alone is takes a lot of time/energy, combined with travel and competitions which limit free skiing time.  There is only so much time in a day, I understand this.

This reaffirms what I have been saying all along, just because a high level skier is competent ripping down the zipperline, does not magically make him capable of holding the line over the tops, unlike what several posters on this board declare.  To do this requires a different highly developed skill set and time to practice utilizing it while navigating the tops.  It can take up to 3 years, at least 1 year, of focused over the top training to be able to confidently carry speed down the technical line.  This shouldn't come as a surprise when you look at the time zipperline skiers work on perfecting their technique looking for more speed/tighter body form.

What separates SVMM and traditional mogul skiing programs, when it comes to competitive mogul skiing down the zipperline, is that it "combines" practice and focus on developing the skills needed to ski "both" lines competently.  The concept being it is more advantageous for a young skier to simultaneously develop both skill sets which will give them a broader range of experiences making them more complete all around skiers at an earlier age supporting their quest to excel at competitive mogul skiing.
Edited by Nailbender - 2/19/10 at 8:21am
post #465 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post



Thanks for the candid answer Carl.  Neither did I, nor would I expect you to be able to ski the technical line proficiently.  You are concentrating your efforts on the zipperline game and I understand why, it's the current WC format in which you intend to succeed.  The jumping practice alone is takes a lot of time/energy, combined with travel and competitions which limit free skiing time.  There is only so much time day, I understand this.

This reaffirms what I have been saying all along, just because a high level skier is competent ripping down the zipperline, does not magically make him capable of holding the line over the tops, unlike what several posters on this board declare.  To do this requires a different highly developed skill set and time to practice utilizing it while navigating the tops.  It can take up to 3 years, at least 1 year, of focused over the top training to be able to confidently carry speed down the technical line.  This shouldn't come as a surprise when you look at the time zipperline skiers work on perfecting their technique looking for more speed/tighter body form.

What separates SVMM and traditional mogul skiing programs, when it comes to competitive mogul skiing down the zipperline, is that it "combines" practice and focus on developing the skills needed to ski "both" lines competently.  The concept being it is more advantageous for a young skier to simultaneously develop both skill sets which will give them a broader range of experiences making them more complete all around skiers at an earlier age supporting their quest to excel at competitive mogul skiing.
 
The last statement says it all as if the skier can ski the his own line every where in the mogul field the zipper line becomes easier.
post #466 of 654
Quote:
CVJ wrote:

Would you want to ski like BMM or Nails would be better to compare?

Agreed, 2 mid-life guys working for a living that love to ski moguls, but using different techniques, representative recreational skiers.  I'm up for the virtual dual, actually let's make it a 3 way hooey and add Jeffy to the mix.  What do you think Jamt, which is the more versatile technique?

BMM...



Nail...



Jeffy...

post #467 of 654

You are all good skiers, but I like the look of speed and level head, which I think is more prevalant in the traditional style.
I think it is difficult to compare different hills when you cannot really see steepnes and bump size.
 

If you want answer some technical I would like to ask some. I am not biased towards any of the techniques, yet. I just want to understand.


Does skidding turns vs brushed/carved turns have anything to do with selecting zipper vs over the top?
If you go over the top without impact, and use carving turns. How do you then control speed with SVMM?
How can the impact be smaller when you go over the bigger top than the side?
Isn't it difficult to carry a lot of speed going over the top in large moguls, unless you jump between moguls to brake?
 

post #468 of 654
Quote:
Jamt wrote:

You are all good skiers, but I like the look of speed and level head, which I think is more prevalent in the traditional style.


Quote:
Jamt wrote:

From:  "Hip Rotation in a second half of a turn"

Simplyfast, I am not sure I understand. When I enter a turn I twist my hip inwards, and that increase edging and reduces separation of feet. I believe that the primary reason the inner ski becomes ahead is that the inner leg is flexed, and since the boot has limited flex it pushes the boot to the front. The hip rotation just increases (outward) or decreases (inward). If I have loose heal, (telemarking) I can have my inner leg way behind.
 
I'm curious to know how you can go from discussing the intricacies of the mechanics of carving technique to judging a skiing technique by the "looks of speed and a level head" disregarding what the skis are doing. 
post #469 of 654
For about 3 years in the 70s, skied Look Ma every morning and Prima, Pronto, Log Chute, Highline in the afternoon.  Look Ma is fun just because the bumps were big and there's a good audience with the chair right there.  For crowd entertainment, my "group" would throw front flips (a big no-no) and other assorted airs.  I took a pair of 223 downhill skis down it one day - did two turns, caught an edge and shot down the rest without another turn - looked like a WC bumper, I did!.  But Prima or Highline are longer and thus better bump runs.  Those "fun" days are gone though - Look Ma mostly just sits there now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

We have also skied Look Ma the top 3 turns are steep then the rest of the run is low angle skiing at best. 
 
post #470 of 654
That discussion was about racing technique in the gates, and this discussion is about mogul lines.
My interest in race carving technique is becuase I coach a junior team, and my interest in moguls are just for fun. We actually don´t have any moguls at my home hill, but on occasion I go to places that do have moguls. I can get down the moguls, but its nothing I would publish on the internet if you see what I mean. mostly short turns around the moguls.
Just like there are efficient ways to get down a race course there are pretty ways.  Felix Neureuther's rodeo ride in Kitzbuhel may not be the prettiest, but it was obviously the most efficient.

Regarding the mogul ride I thought the question raised was regarding the look, not the efficiency. It is just my personal opinion that I like the traditional look more, and the reason is partly perceived (and real?) speed and steady head.

Regarding bump efficiency and what the skis are doing I asked four questions and I would appreciate if you could answer those instead of questioning my motives
post #471 of 654
Quote:
Nailbender wrote:

What do you think Jamt, which is the more versatile technique?

Quote:
Jamt wrote:

Regarding the mogul ride I thought the question raised was regarding the look, not the efficiency. It is just my personal opinion that I like the traditional look more, and the reason is partly perceived (and real?) speed and steady head.

Regarding bump efficiency and what the skis are doing I asked four questions and I would appreciate if you could answer those instead of questioning my motives

I wasn't questioning your motives Jamt, I thought I had asked a simple question and considered your answer to be lacking and unsubstantiated, as "looking fast with a level head" has little to do with versatility, I simply could not make the connection.   My first criteria for evaluating a technique is how the skier uses their skis and what the skis are doing.  Body form and aesthetics, while related to what the skis are doing, is a secondary critique to me.

I can see now though, what I considered a "simple" question was probably premature and most likely a "loaded" question as you are still evaluating the mogul skiing techniques.  Hopefully someday after gaining experience while experimenting with both techniques you will be capable of making a competent, substantiated  answer.
Quote:

Jamt  wrote:

Does skidding turns vs brushed/carved turns have anything to do with selecting zipper vs over the top?

Not only is line relative, the speed a skier carries down the line is also very relative.  I'm talking about fast to very fast mogul skiing in tight to medium spaced moguls.  Most of this has been discussed previously in this thread although not sequentially as your questions Jamt.

The zipplerline restricts the skier to 2 options, variations of the pivot/skid, pivot/slide or pivot/slam which best describes it IMO.  The other option is the deflected carved turn which offers very little speed control but is very fast.  The brushed carved option is not available as the tail of the ski hits the side of the mogul wall and the turn cannot be completed, thus it cannot be brushed.

The brushed carve turn is used while skiing over the tops where there is room to complete the turn both while turning into the mogul face and on the top or down the backside.

Quote:
Jamt wrote:

If you go over the top without impact, and use carving turns. How do you then control speed with SVMM?

There is impact when you stuff your tips into the mogul face, but it is minimal compared to slamming the adjacent rut.  The skier is actively completing the turn  and is quite square to the mogul face, the ski tips/shovels are driven into the mogul face at the turn finish.  I do this with pushing my shins forward, especially my inside ski which drives down and forward at the finish of my turn, simultaneously my thighs are being pushed upward to absorb the rising terrain change.  During the finish of my turn as my shovels are rising, my ski tails have room to come around and brush speed.  I do absorb some energy when I stuff my tips, but it transfers squarely through my shovels into my body and is very smooth.  I am really only absorbing the impact of the terrain change and not dependent on it to dump all the energy/speed required as my tails are simultaneously brushing this speed.

As I reach the top of the mogul my legs are setup to regain shovel/snow contact.  My shins are forward/slightly extended and my thighs are pushed up towards my chest,  as I crest the mogul face I immediately retract my shins, pull my feet back under my body, press down with my toes/balls and push my thighs down gaining shovel edge contact high in the "C" of my next turn down the backside of the mogul which is very similar to a fall away turn on the groomed as the backside is usually softer and very receptive to a carved turn.

I am not a technical writer, but I hope you can visualize what I have written.  You can practice stuffing your tips into any pile of snow, crud or small mogul.  You don't have to start practicing in black diamond mogul runs.

Quote:
Jamt wrote:

How can the impact be smaller when you go over the bigger top than the side?

Like I said above, the skier brushed a lot of energy getting to the mogul face, what impact there is gets absorbed squarely through the body.  Usually there is softer scraped snow covering the mogul face also that will facilitate the terrain absorption and the brush carved turn.
Quote:

Jamt wrote:

Isn't it difficult to carry a lot of speed going over the top in large moguls, unless you jump between moguls to brake?

It's difficult to carry speed over the tops of any size moguls, although the time it takes to develop the skills needed has a huge payoff, it is very smooth compared to skiing the zipperline and the skier is free to ski not just where the lines are perfectly set up, but can seamlessly navigate random moguls and broken lines.  Large moguls can also add another huge benefit, while the zipperline skier must be static while dropping/waiting for the next rut which results in a powerful pounding, the over the tops skier can make 2 turns on the backside of the mogul to dump speed and maintain fluidity/rhythm. 

I don't jump between moguls to brake, but in steep nasty moguls, if I'm late getting my shovels back on the snow for the backside turn, that I have no problem completing in control, I won't have the room to make my turn into the next mogul face and will be forced to step off the mogul backside and land on the top of the next mogul landing in a tips first deflecting carved turn, finishing with a brushed carved turn back in control and realigned timing.  This looks or feels nothing like the 2 footed tips up landing into the mogul face seen in John Lyons Look Ma video above, it is very smooth although considered a cheat by other SVMM'rs, I do what I've got to do.  I don't have an example of it in any of my videos.

The goal is smooth, fluid, tight fall line skiing regardless of terrain, pitch or snow conditions.  The steeper the better as pitch releases the skier effortlessly into the float phase of the next turn.
post #472 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

You are all good skiers, but I like the look of speed and level head, which I think is more prevalant in the traditional style.
I think it is difficult to compare different hills when you cannot really see steepnes and bump size.
 

If you want answer some technical I would like to ask some. I am not biased towards any of the techniques, yet. I just want to understand.


Does skidding turns vs brushed/carved turns have anything to do with selecting zipper vs over the top?
If you go over the top without impact, and use carving turns. How do you then control speed with SVMM?
How can the impact be smaller when you go over the bigger top than the side?
Isn't it difficult to carry a lot of speed going over the top in large moguls, unless you jump between moguls to brake?
 

Great ? Jmt if I could elaborate.

1 No how you make your turns has nothing to do with how the skier picks his line but with a skidding turn the skier can not hold the line over the top; because the skier will go past the spot that is needed to stay on the line. With the brushed caved turn the skier will be able to hold the line better and control his speed with turn shape.

2 The impact will be less when skiing the tops because the skis will absorb a lot of impact by flexing the ski from the tip first. When skiing the zipper most the impact comes from hitting the mogul at the toe piece. The skier is also waiting to hit the mogul to get the ski into reverse camber. When skiing over the tops the ski will be loaded from the tip of the ski and the skier can ride this reverse camber to the tail. Thus creating a very bent ski that will give the skier a float phase in the turn earlier or higher in the C than a skidding turn that gets reverse camber from impacting the mogul at the bottom of the turn or low in the C.

3 Trying to carry speed over the tops of moguls the skier must start to use his COM to lead the skis down the hill. The skier will use the down side of the mogul by pushing down the tips of the skis as the mogul goes down. The skis will be following the counter of the moguls more from tip to tail. This is a key to the whole picture.

Let me ask if anyone out there if they ever bank of the sides of the zipper line?

To bank of the sides of the zipper line the skier must project his body from mogul to mogul again leading with the skiers COM. The skiers aims for the end of the mogul and does not get so deep into the rut line. In short the skier hits the mogul out on the end rather than getting into the rut early and riding the mogul all the way through the rut. Skier is straightening out the mogul run thus is as bumpers say is more direct line.
post #473 of 654
Thanks for your answers. I think I got a good mental picture how to ski both ways now. Can't wait to get to some moguls and try it out.

I have ordered this mogul instructional video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRSQRtmId3w&feature=player_embedded#
(sorry about the swedish)

It seems more oriented towards the traditional technique, but they also talk about more carving and something that resembles QCT.
post #474 of 654

Anytime you want to come out in May or June,cvj, or even April.  I live in Newport now, used to live in Mammoth up till last year.  Quit mogul skiing 7 years ago? Hardly. 

post #475 of 654
You guys should have all been out skiing or getting ready to go skiing from post #470 onward... just sayin'.
post #476 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

You guys should have all been out skiing or getting ready to go skiing from post #470 onward... just sayin'.
 

I have been skiing every day lately, and tomorrow too, but I can't ski 24/7 you know
post #477 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I have been skiing every day lately, and tomorrow too, but I can't ski 24/7 you know

Wouldn't life be great if we could though. I think that even then, guys like Nail and cvj would somehow find time to reply to each others posts on the internet.
post #478 of 654
Thread Starter 
This is a joke so dont take it too seriously. Let me try to animate the two styles using the smilys available here. Here we go. The zipper line rutt is to the left while the over the tops is to the right:

First a little debate of who's style is better:
 (watch this for at least a minute for the right effect)

Then off we go:
 
Here comes the bumps... float impact float impact etc.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

End of run:
 

Then some more fighting over which style is better:



Notice how the zipper line guy throws bigger snowballs at the SVMM guy
post #479 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post



Great ? Jmt if I could elaborate.

1 No how you make your turns has nothing to do with how the skier picks his line but with a skidding turn the skier can not hold the line over the top; because the skier will go past the spot that is needed to stay on the line. With the brushed caved turn the skier will be able to hold the line better and control his speed with turn shape.

2 The impact will be less when skiing the tops because the skis will absorb a lot of impact by flexing the ski from the tip first. When skiing the zipper most the impact comes from hitting the mogul at the toe piece. The skier is also waiting to hit the mogul to get the ski into reverse camber. When skiing over the tops the ski will be loaded from the tip of the ski and the skier can ride this reverse camber to the tail. Thus creating a very bent ski that will give the skier a float phase in the turn earlier or higher in the C than a skidding turn that gets reverse camber from impacting the mogul at the bottom of the turn or low in the C.

3 Trying to carry speed over the tops of moguls the skier must start to use his COM to lead the skis down the hill. The skier will use the down side of the mogul by pushing down the tips of the skis as the mogul goes down. The skis will be following the counter of the moguls more from tip to tail. This is a key to the whole picture.

Let me ask if anyone out there if they ever bank of the sides of the zipper line?

To bank of the sides of the zipper line the skier must project his body from mogul to mogul again leading with the skiers COM. The skiers aims for the end of the mogul and does not get so deep into the rut line. In short the skier hits the mogul out on the end rather than getting into the rut early and riding the mogul all the way through the rut. Skier is straightening out the mogul run thus is as bumpers say is more direct line.
 
If anyone could answer about banking off the sides of the zipper line it would be better than the bs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post




Wouldn't life be great if we could though. I think that even then, guys like Nail and cvj would somehow find time to reply to each others posts on the internet.


 
What  is this post about? No idea but if heluva skier new about moguls maybe he could give us something to try while skiing instead of being so closed minded about 1 way the zipper line is elementary.

Ski many days a year maybe even 24/7. At least think about it when not doing it. 

Still waiting for advise about banking off the sides as this is an alternate line that even a zipper liner should have in his tool box.
Edited by cvj - 2/21/10 at 6:44am
post #480 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

This is a joke so dont take it too seriously. Let me try to animate the two styles using the smilys available here. Here we go. The zipper line rutt is to the left while the over the tops is to the right:

First a little debate of who's style is better:
 (watch this for at least a minute for the right effect)

Then off we go:
 
Here comes the bumps... float impact float impact etc.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

End of run:
 

Then some more fighting over which style is better:



Notice how the zipper line guy throws bigger snowballs at the SVMM guy
1 No style is better but if the skier has more versatility it must be better. IMO

Please answer if anyone does use banking as a line choice?
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