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Bumps and line selection, ski bumps like a pro - Page 9

post #241 of 654
Carl R, I give you credit for digging in your mogul lines.  It is done at almost all competitive venues these days, not only WC.  I'd say hand dug moguls are a whole lot better than no moguls.

There is a diagram, I think FIS, that shows and specifies the layout of a competitive mogul course. google it.  If you can get a groomer involved, you may as well make the real thing.  Your area could promote it as the only WC mogul course in Sweden.   Skiing the rut line is a lot better than skiing no moguls at all.  
post #242 of 654
Yes' i've seen that one. That's where I read about doing it with the groomer. There's more to it than the bumps thou,vertical drop, width 'n stuff.
http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Development_of_A_Moguls_Course

http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Mogul_Course_Specification
post #243 of 654
I had no idea mogul fields were groomed these days (other than covering up rocks, etc.).  I did suspect "something" funny was going on when every run in every event nearly looks the same.  Boring!!  Give me the old days of guys flying off random (natural) bumps any day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

There is a diagram, I think FIS, that shows and specifies the layout of a competitive mogul course. google it.  If you can get a groomer involved, you may as well make the real thing.  Your area could promote it as the only WC mogul course in Sweden.   Skiing the rut line is a lot better than skiing no moguls at all.  
post #244 of 654
Quote:
JL wrote:

I had no idea mogul fields were groomed these days (other than covering up rocks, etc.).  I did suspect "something" funny was going on when every run in every event nearly looks the same.  Boring!!  Give me the old days of guys flying off random (natural) bumps any day.

I agree, Boring.  I was asked this question on another board.

Quote:
SkiDork wrote:

I agree that most runs look similar. But riddle me this: Alpine racing runs are also cookie cutter. Why isn't that sport also dying?

Quote:
Nailbender wrote:

I'd have to say that alpine racing is just that, a race. The clock is the judge but the mountain and the gate setter determine the coarse which changes from event to event and I believe in slalom, it changes each run. "Change" is the key word and designed to be difficult to carry speed. Mogul skiing venues don't change very much from event to event and the rut skiing technique down the intermediate line that man made courses are designed to support is just as repetitive and way to easy at the WC level. Event after event with the skiers making basically the same turn in exactly the same location run after run after run, well, it's copy & paste and is BORING and repetitive and it's dying. This isn't Freestyle, this is boring.

The sport of mogul skiing doesn't even support it's most difficult aspect, the technical line over the tops of the moguls. When skiing over the tops there is no room for error, nothing to slam into to dump speed, the only thing the skier has is their technical skiing ability. This is another black mark on the sport, it doesn't have the respect of it's alpine racing sibling because the skier's are not using technically sound turns to control speed, they are slamming. There are basically 3 ways to ski over the tops. You know how to do it and do it, you know how to do it and lose control, or you can't do it because the skier lacks the skills. There is no faking it over the tops while carrying speed.

The riddle is not very difficult to solve, the change that is required for the sport to evolve and advance is not what most want to hear, but is the reality imo.
It's exactly the same thing I've been saying since I got here, the sport of mogul skiing needs to "Level Up", and so do it's skiers.

I'm actually thinking it would be better to get rid of the judges completely and lose the airs which are basically all the same.  There's already Aerials, which is very specialized, and the airs coming out of the half pipe are much better and more exciting.  I'm thinking fall line racing over the tops against the clock with flush gate, where you actually watch skiers making turns down natural mogul fields instead of just slamming their way down.  Retro-gates, racing the way it used to be before groomers.

post #245 of 654
I got to spend my birthday on the mtn. today.  The skiing conditions are fantastic, here's a look at some Sun Valley mogul skiing on Upper River Run and Holiday.

post #246 of 654
Hey happy birthday Nail. SV looks nice. got to go there some day.

Looks like you've got good stamina. Good shape is a must huh?

Look, you could do much for your bump skiing if you worked more on your hand position and pole use. your line is fine, but you are getting backseat for reasons i stated before. You're letting your hands and poles get behind your center of mass and it's pulling you backseat as we can see here. The mini bailouts even though you change lines and continue when it happens, it's a good recovery but in bigger steeper bumps, could mean bailouts or falls.

You could be much better if you worked on this believe me. That said, it's not bad Nail, not bad.

we'd have fun together.
post #247 of 654
Happy Birthday! 
A bunch of friends were in SV over the weekend & said it was going off!
JF
post #248 of 654
Quote:
Lars wrote: 

Look, you could do much for your bump skiing if you worked more on your hand position and pole use. your line is fine, but you are getting backseat for reasons i stated before. You're letting your hands and poles get behind your center of mass and it's pulling you backseat as we can see here. The mini bailouts even though you change lines and continue when it happens, it's a good recovery but in bigger steeper bumps, could mean bailouts or falls.

I will agree this is not my best skiing, but it is not bad like you say.  My biggest problem is that I'm not in good enough physical shape and I re-injured/pulled my right hamstring a couple days ago during the powder fiesta, SV is going off, by doing things I shouldn't have been doing like skiing way faster than my conditioning supports, but it was fun.  I skied yesterday making light left turns, not fully loading my right leg as it would have sent me home early in pain.  Most of my bobbles resulted from a hanging right turn because I wasn't able to "stick" a left turn when needed.  I promised some video on our steeper terrain and this is what I got, all of it was posted, unedited to remove the bobbles. 
The hand position and technique are sound.  I am able to recover because of my technique, I lose control because I'm pushing my envelope.  I could ski much slower and in much more control, but hey, it's was my Bday and the skiing was on fire.

That last section was skiing down the nose of Holiday, this is one of the steepest sections of moguls on Baldy as you can see when I disappear from the camera and emerge in control on the run below, I made the last 6 turns in control and didn't shoot,straight run out into the groomed.  Like I've said before, the SVMM technique works better as the terrain gets steeper.  I get into real trouble just as it starts to roll over, weak left deflecting turn, but I'm able to hold it together because of my reaching/stabbing pole plant.  Skiing over the tops looks deceptively slow, because it is smooth and in control.  I skiing pretty fast in these moguls, not WC speed, but certainly not slow and I'm chewing up some sizable chunks of vertical.

One thing that can be seen in all the videos is how I am initiating my turns with shovel edge pressure, identical to my QCT's.  This is in sharp contrast to the pivoting/edge checking turns displayed at the WC level.  I'm consistently control my speed with turn technique and not relying on slamming my skis sideways into the moguls.  Here's slowmo of the really steep Holiday Nose clip section.


You are right Lars, you should make it to SV.  I'd consider skipping the Washington trip and re-schedule. 

Had to edit:  Just got this months Ski mag in the mail.  Nice SV article, take a look, I really like what the writer's kid had to say, "We''re not skiing trails, we're really skiing the mountain".
Edited by Nailbender - 1/28/10 at 11:05am
post #249 of 654
Quote:
4ster wrote:

Happy Birthday! 
A bunch of friends were in SV over the weekend & said it was going off!

Thanks, I really like that description and yes it was/is.  The cycles when the skiing just keeps getting better and better each day with more terrain opening up are really special, their timing was perfect!
post #250 of 654
Check out your turn at the 18 second mark............
post #251 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Check out your turn at the 18 second mark............

In sweden we have a saying "One swallow doesn't make it summer". :)
post #252 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Check out your turn at the 18 second mark............

Because he had a balanced stance for most of the run and knew that he wanted to be forward, he made it. Nice recovery NB. and Happy Birthday.
post #253 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Check out your turn at the 18 second mark............


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post




In sweden we have a saying "One swallow doesn't make it summer". :)


If you hang around the beehive... you will get stung.

What happened from mark 17 to 18 is the result of skiing in the back seat.
post #254 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Check out your turn at the 18 second mark............


Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post




Because he had a balanced stance for most of the run and knew that he wanted to be forward, he made it.
 

If you call that a balance stance (for most of the run) then there are philosophical differences that can be resolved. 

It's been interesting.
 
post #255 of 654
Quote:
Joemammoth wrote:

Check out your turn at the 18 second mark...........

I'd call that fully committed and projecting down the fall line as the terrain starts to drop away and roll off towards a much steeper pitch, I'd also call it "Big Trouble".  I do not suggest attempting the "thrill ride", but there is something to be gleaned from the next 3 turns, tips down, driving shovel carves into the mogul faces, I didn't pivot and skid my skis sideways to slam/dump speed.  If I hadn't stopped my right hand at my hip, I would have been what I call, "handing out beers to the backseat" and a hard bailout/traverse would have likely followed. 

At 11 sec.mark I change lines as Holiday is a slight dog leg, you can ski straight over the nose for the better/longer/steeper line, but it is rocky and to thin still.  The next 3 turns up to the 18 sec.mark, I'm trying to pick up/optimize my speed again and I'd say I over did it, this left turn was timid and got me in trouble (my right thigh is not right).

Thanks for the thumbs up recovery MR and CarlR, I thought it was a pretty seamless recovery considering the run is already getting pretty steep in this section.  In previous posts, I said that when skiing over the tops and trouble happens, it happens quick and there is nothing to slam off of to regain speed control, only technique and confidence in those QCT's when you really need them and I really needed them here.  I'd say they proved sufficient to bring me back into control.

I put up the slowmo of the clip because there really is a lot see in this section, some good and some bad.  After all it's mogul skiing and stuff happens and as the video shows, it's important to be able to put the pieces back together again once they've come apart.  I'd say this section in it's entirety is representative of SVMM skiing, overall I think the skiing is smooth and fluid and takes advantage of the best snow in the line.  I do know one thing for certain, it sure was FUN!
post #256 of 654
I'd say there were about three turns that were really dicey starting around 0:17, the rest were turns with his body over his feet, both laterally and fore/aft as well as a very nice recovery.

NB isn't purporting to be perfect. He is working on his technique as many of us do. I haven't been following this thread closely so I don't know much about your philosophy. Would you like to elucidate on the philosophical differences between 'balance stance' and what you infer NB is doing?

FWIW, NB posted the video as a demonstration to illustrate what he is working on. He also concedes that it is not perfection, as well as adds that due to the application of what he is learning, he succeeded in completing the run, seemingly to his satisfaction:

Quote:
That last section was skiing down the nose of Holiday, this is one of the steepest sections of moguls on Baldy as you can see when I disappear from the camera and emerge in control on the run below, I made the last 6 turns in control and didn't shoot,straight run out into the groomed.  Like I've said before, the SVMM technique works better as the terrain gets steeper.  I get into real trouble just as it starts to roll over, weak left deflecting turn, but I'm able to hold it together because of my reaching/stabbing pole plant.  Skiing over the tops looks deceptively slow, because it is smooth and in control.  I skiing pretty fast in these moguls, not WC speed, but certainly not slow and I'm chewing up some sizable chunks of vertical.

One thing that can be seen in all the videos is how I am initiating my turns with shovel edge pressure, identical to my QCT's.  This is in sharp contrast to the pivoting/edge checking turns displayed at the WC level.  I'm consistently control my speed with turn technique and not relying on slamming my skis sideways into the moguls.  Here's slowmo of the really steep Holiday Nose clip section.

My comments also reflect my method of coaching: identify problems, while also praising success.
post #257 of 654
The dicey/sketchy turns (that you get away with) are the ones where the most learning and advancement occur.  Unfortunately, they are also the ones with the most potential for causing injury
post #258 of 654

+1

post #259 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

.... I haven't been following this thread closely so I don't know much about your philosophy. Would you like to elucidate on the philosophical differences between 'balance stance' and what you infer NB is doing?

 


As mentioned in the other post and by others, NB is in the back seat. From what I see, from mark 17 to 18, the skis shot forward from underneath because he was in the backseat. His recovery was good but why get in this position to begin with?

The philosophical difference that I speak of is his backseat position or the placement of his hip. Either you believe its proper or not proper, I do not believe this is a good position and most bumpers who like skiing a direct line down a bump field would probably say the same. 

No offense, but I grow tired of arguing this especially with the SVMM folks.  BTW, there's more differences I can mention from the vid but this would cause endless banter. 
post #260 of 654
Quote:
Jack97 wrote:

What happened from mark 17 to 18 is the result of skiing in the back seat.

If you call that a balance stance (for most of the run) then there are philosophical differences that can be resolved. 

Jack, throughout the 4 clips I am consistantly forward, just look at how far down the hill I'm reaching/striking my pole plants (most bump skiers support planting near the boot).  I am initiating my turns (not pivot/skids like most bump skiers) with my tips and stuffing my tips into the mogul faces (something most bump skiers never do).  Tip/shovel pressure/initiation and striking pole plants downhill, near and beyond the ski tips are NOT representative of backseat skiing.  A skier can't make round turns over/through the tops of moguls while skiing in the backseat, but a balanced skier can make a fall line recovery resulting from a backseat bobble.

Backseat mogul skiers are usually the ones making windshield wiper pivot turns and slamming into the sides of moguls for speed control because they haven't developed the technical skills necessary to make tip initiated deflecting turns down the rut line or making tips/shovel initiated round turns down the technical line over the tops.

Philosophical differences may be resolved, but improper interpretations of physical realities may require professional counseling.
post #261 of 654
I thought I noticed some minor favoring of one side, but overall some nice skiing there.  I particularly liked the very fluid segments starting at about 3:15 and 4:50.

Beautiful day and not very crowded - you're a lucky guy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Most of my bobbles resulted from a hanging right turn because I wasn't able to "stick" a left turn when needed.
post #262 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Philosophical differences may be resolved, but improper interpretations of physical realities may require professional counseling.
 
Not so, even our interpretations of physical realities are subject to debate. I came from a background where even scientific journals need a group of referees to scrutinize the conclusion. lol....

I have no time to carry on this endless banter, I have more work and skiing to do. Speaking of which, we just got a nasty thaw which made it rain, now the tops on those bumps are bullet proof but the throughs are great from a windy snow storm. Last week I had a blast in the glades they were bumped up nicely.... but I couldn't ski the tops, damn trees were in the way.

later.
Edited by jack97 - 1/29/10 at 5:38pm
post #263 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post




As mentioned in the other post and by others, NB is in the back seat. From what I see, from mark 17 to 18, the skis shot forward from underneath because he was in the backseat. His recovery was good but why get in this position to begin with?

The philosophical difference that I speak of is his backseat position or the placement of his hip. Either you believe its proper or not proper, I do not believe this is a good position and most bumpers who like skiing a direct line down a bump field would probably say the same. 

No offense, but I grow tired of arguing this especially with the SVMM folks.  BTW, there's more differences I can mention from the vid but this would cause endless banter. 
 

Jack, 

I am not dogmatic. Definitely not an SVMM apostle.

I look at skiing and say what I see. I know what is needed for good skiing. Moguls coaching is something I don't do and the 25 seconds of NB's last video in particular aren't enough for me to critique him, which I haven't done for those two reasons. He looks, to me, like he has decent balance for most of the video and I'll stand by that. He is making an effort and I applaud that.

Now back to the experts.

MR
post #264 of 654
Quote:
Jack wrote:

No offense, but I grow tired of arguing this especially with the SVMM folks.  BTW, there's more differences I can mention from the vid but this would cause endless banter. 

All I can say is a skier better be pretty confident in their technique to reel in a bobble heading straight into a pitch like that without getting their ski's sideways.  That section/face I'm entering is getting REAL steep, real quick and I don't straightrun  the last several turns you don't even see as I casually ski onto the groomed below.  This is what I've been talking about and finally been able to visually support, speed control through turning technique and line choice independent of previous skiers established rut lines.  If you and a lot of other bumpers don't or can't emulate the technique because it is "different", doesn't invalidate the techniques overall effectiveness to navigate expert terrain, it only means you are "stuck in a rut", unwilling or unable to experiment with techniques that are not widely practiced or understood.
post #265 of 654
NB, your turns are fine, they get you down the hill and you are having fun-that is all that matters in the end.

Some of your assertations of how other schools of bump skiing, teach and coach are WAY off base.

I used the turn at the 18 second mark to point out the fact that you have no flex in the ankle, keeping your feet under you.  You consistently reach for the your turns and the bumps with your feet, which leads to you tipping into the hill and getting your weight back.

This is why your shoulders are hunched and you get rocked by alot of bumps. Your are not in a completely balanced position which would allow you to flow over the terrain more efficiently and use your skis more efficiently.

My way of looking at skiing and bump skiing comes from years of skiing and coaching that sport, I agree with you to an extent on judging and some aspects of competition, however, your dismissal of high level bumpskiiing and derision for it, to me, diminishes my ability to take your methodolgy seriously.
post #266 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

I am not dogmatic.
 


Never said that about you. And as a casual lurker you don't seem to be. 
post #267 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

  If you and a lot of other bumpers don't or can't emulate the technique because it is "different", doesn't invalidate the techniques overall effectiveness to navigate expert terrain, it only means you are "stuck in a rut", unwilling or unable to experiment with techniques that are not widely practiced or understood.

 

I said that skiing tops is something I do; sometimes to bail or when the troughs are boilerplate or to switchover to another line. Never mentioned it here but I had a blast skiiing with another bumper, he was skiing Killington back in the days, he like going on the top and I spent the time in the troughs seems like we balance the line in a way :)

I really have to get some work done....

later.
post #268 of 654
Quote:
Joemammoth wrote:

Some of your assertations of how other schools of bump skiing, teach and coach are WAY off base.

An example would be great.  My #1 is the elimination of the technical line in competitive bump skiing.  #2 would be the promotion of pivot turns resulting in high scores with basically the complete absence of tip initiation and everything that follows it including angulation.

Quote:
JM wrote:

I used the turn at the 18 second mark to point out the fact that you have no flex in the ankle, keeping your feet under you.  You consistently reach for the your turns and the bumps with your feet, which leads to you tipping into the hill and getting your weight back.

This is why your shoulders are hunched and you get rocked by alot of bumps. Your are not in a completely balanced position which would allow you to flow over the terrain more efficiently and use your skis more efficiently.

I'm glad you drew attention to the bobble at 18, I was in trouble for sure.  I don't agree with your description of of me "reaching" for the bump with my feet consistently.  I am not pivoting my feet/skis in the rut like most competitive bump skiers, I am "driving" my tips/shovels into the mogul face to finish my carved turn.  Turns like this, being executed at this location are seen no where in competitive bump skiing.  I am finishing a round turn and dumping speed, not deflecting to change direction.  My shoulders get hunched when I reach down the hill and heavily load my shovels at the bottom of the turn.  I know this is position is not supported by competitive mogul skiing and is considered a "broken waist" and is not supported by the "stacked position",  but it is indicative of someone pressuring/loading their shovels while making a demanding carved turn and should not be a deduction imo.  Look at Raich when makes demanding turns, he's got his arms wide/ forward and his shoulders are hunched to maximize tip pressure/control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_y-pfNhx4U

  In competitive bump skiing, the "turns" score is really a "form" score and should be a secondary critique to the skiers turning technique and how their skis are actually utilized.  I am not saying I don't have room to straighten up,  tighten my entire package, or improve my timing.  The line I'm skiing and the technique used is difficult to perform with perfect "looks", but is very effective at controlling speed and holding line.

There's one part of my skiing in the 4 clips that you didn't mention and I'm not sure you comprehend.  During the majority of the clips, since I'm not skiing the rut line, the snow is forgiving enough that I'm able to omit my backside turn.  I'm skiing from mogul face to mogul face and I have a lot of speed/energy to control with each turn.  I'm making 1 turn for every 2 turns a rut skier next to me would be making.

Quote:
Jm wrote:

My way of looking at skiing and bump skiing comes from years of skiing and coaching that sport, I agree with you to an extent on judging and some aspects of competition, however, your dismissal of high level bumpskiiing and derision for it, to me, diminishes my ability to take your methodolgy seriously.

I can understand you don't like pointed criticism of the entrenched methodology surrounding the sport of mogul skiing.  Most don't.  At least I have backed up my opinion with detailed arguments and visual/video alternatives.  An unsubstantiated/hollow derision is one thing, but I feel my arguments have merit and should be considered a legitimate alternative.  If toes get stepped on during the discussion, that's not the intention, all I know is mine are throbbing. 
post #269 of 654


NB,  I think we are miscommunicating.
1. Your assertations of bump skiing  Mogul programs do not teach "proper" ski technique
 .  I have started and been the head coach of three.  I know what I taught all of my athletes.  Learn to use the ski as a tool. Turns start with the foot, then the ankle then the knees.  All turns no matter where you are on the mountain, or where you CHOSE to ski the bumps. 

 

2. Your body position.

  Your shoulders are hunched because you are not on top of your skis. A skier does not hunch their shoulders to increase weight onto the fronts, they drive their entire body mass forward. Skiers who are not on top of their skis"break at the waist" no matter where they are on the mountain. Your mass, for the most part, is on the arch to the back of foot.



3. You consistently reach with your feet.
  Watch your videos closely, a majority of your turns you reach with your feet.  Its on the film, no need to explain.

4. Your line choice.
  The technical line, as you call it.  I fully comprehend where you are turning, it is fun to ski that line, however, it is a tactical decision, not a technique.

I can understand your frustration with WC judging, however, if you think that those high level bump skiers can only make that one turn, you are sadly mistaken. 
  They have chosen a sport and excel in it.  In order to compete and win an athlete ,unfortunately, sometimes has to conform to succeed. All the athletes I have had the oppurtunity to coach are well rounded skiers. They could go to any part of a mountain and tear it up.  I know this first hand from skiing all over North America with them. Seeing them ski steeps, trees, crud,powder you name it-sometimes on skiiny bump skis in between runs or after training. Trust me they are not sliding and pivoting  by any stretch of the imagination.
   In my opinion you have backed up opinions with flawed logic.
 

post #270 of 654
Just curious, I gather you are coaching the feet-first technique for bump skiing, right?  Even back in the day (Vail), several of my friends that were extremely pretty bump skiers used a "foot swivel" technique.  Of course, the ankles and knees follow (if the size of the turn dictates), but the sight of those tips quickly jumping from side to side with minimal body movement was a sight to see (I'm not a big fan of the hip wiggle I sometimes see).  They stood very upright (zero bend at the waist and hands up and out) and talked of holding an imaginary pencil between their butt cheeks.  Skied right over the tops - not the trough line.

While they were not particularly good running gates as they couldn't really hold an edge well enough (not enough knees), they were outstanding everywhere else on the mountain.


Also curious about the "skinny bump skis" - what exactly are they using these days?  You can ski bumps on 150s in a way that is not possible on 180s and up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post


Turns start with the foot, then the ankle then the knees.  All turns no matter where you are on the mountain, or where you CHOSE to ski the bumps. 

 



Seeing them ski steeps, trees, crud,powder you name it-sometimes on skiiny bump skis in between runs or after training.
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