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Bumps and line selection, ski bumps like a pro

post #1 of 654
Thread Starter 
Bump skiing is all about flexing and extending, lighting fast legs, short poles and big balls. And wrecked knees, right! Well, that maybe true to some extent but one of the most difficult things to do as a novice and for someone new to bumps is how to pick the right line through the mogul field. I can tell you from experiance that even great bump skiers do not ski down a mogul field without carfully planning ahead and picking their line down the moguls. The next thing that will be of a big consern is speed. Here are the good news, line selection and speed go together hand in hand. So learn how to navigate through the moguls and you will learn how to controll your speed. The moguls serve two missions. They tell us where to turn and they help us turn. They do most of the work. Bear with me for a second. Here is a mogul field. I think we are facing uphill but lets imagin its downhill. I dont think it matters much but it should mimic our view of the mogul run.

Under the chair lift


Looking at it plain like this might be confusing and selecting a line might not be that easy since the bumps are not evenly spaced. Here is the trick. When you ski bumps you do not turn according to a even beat. You do not call the shots. Its the mogul field that calls the shots. Or actually you do it but you do it in harmony with the bumps. Sounds nice doesent it. So lets look closer at what we have in front of us.... here we have the obvious line:

Obvious line

As you see the obvious line snakes through the mogul field nicely. Turning arround the bumps. Not a bad line. Stays close to the fall line and avoids the dredded bumps. Should be easy.... but hey, staying close to the fall line and avoiding the bumps smells like too much speed doesent it. Did I not just mention that the bumps are our firends not our enemy and we need them for speed controll. Thats right. Look at close to where my line ends how straight it becomes! This is something we want to avoid, at least in the beginning. Let me show you something:

Ice and piles of snow

In the photo above I have marked the parts of the moguls with read that I think should be avoided. Or at least the spots where I think turning might be difficult. Its a fearly steep part and its usually icy and hard ending with a check (zipper line [Holmer Simson voice]). Thats where most people turn and causes the moguls to wear in just that place. With violet I have marked the spots where all the snow ends up that the other skiers scrubb off the back side of the moguls and the ruts. And its also not steep. If the back side of the mogul is a black diamond then the front side (do I have the terms front and back in right order?) is like a bunny hill. Let me mark the obvious line here with blue:

Obvious line turning on bad areas

Notice how the blue obvious line deflects off the fall line in the exact same spots marked red. Obviously offcourse. Problem is that our line will be looking like this:



To avoid this horror scenario we need to change our line. One way of doing it would be to make the turns more round but the check at the end of the red area is still going to cause problems for us in the beginning. In true zipper line skiing this is the line to pick but that takes lots of skill and good fittness.

My solution to this is to ski the moguls the other way arround. Perpendicular to the obvious line. This is not always possible but there is different degrees of doing it. My technique builds on burrying my ski tips in the violet area at a 90deg angle to the rut check marked with the blue line. Its a fantastic feeling when you slam into the bumps and the snow explodes. As you explode into the bump and your skis are heavily bent upwards and ready to launch you off into space you flex with your legs. As low as you need. If you get airborn dont be affraid because your speed will be very slow. Turn on the top of the mogul. There your ski tips and tails will be out of the snow and your ski will contact under your boot. Perfect for turning. Next you slip down the back side that is icy but you will have your edges engaged and ski in a fearly straight line. Let me try to draw it out in green for you:

The line to pick in bumps tdk6 style 

Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. Any input very wellcome. Hopefully guys like BB and Pierre will join into the discussion. Here is the obvious line one more time in blue and my suggested line in red.


Bump line opitions 1

Here are a few other lines:

Bump line options 2

Here is the zipper line:



Here is what it might look like in real action. Powder on bumps is my favorite terrain. Hope you enjoyed the reading.



tdk6
post #2 of 654
Good post. I differ from many in that I do not believe in picking a line. I do think you need to be able to read a bump field as TDk shows so you may practice turning on top of the bump, on the shoulder of the bump and it the trough. The key to bump skiing is to have a great short turn, relaxed legs, strong core, active poles and ability to just have fun.

Bumps can be skied mellow and slow or fast and straight. I think bump skiing is some of the most fun you can have on the hill and always presents a challenge. My issue with picking a line is that most bumps runs have some many different skiers and boarders go down that to find a rythum or flow is difficult and often a skier will get out of sorts trying to stick to a line. I like to work with skiers to learn how to turn on all parts of a bump and build the confidence to dictate the line vs being sucked into a line you can not ski. Take TDk pictures and go out and try to ski them all.

keep pushing the tips down and as you allow the legs to flex and extend will give you a nice smooth flow down the hill. Enjoy
post #3 of 654
Thread Starter 
Thanks Todo for great feedback . Indeed, take one bump at a time if you like. And there are no absolute rules for bump skiing so anything that works is ok. My mantra is to turn where the snow is and let the bump do most of the work.
post #4 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Bump skiing is all about flexing and extending, lighting fast legs, short poles and big balls. And wrecked knees, right! Well, that maybe true to some extent but one of the most difficult things to do as a novice and for someone new to bumps is how to pick the right line through the mogul field. I can tell you from experiance that even great bump skiers do not ski down a mogul field without carfully planning ahead and picking their line down the moguls. The next thing that will be of a big consern is speed. Here are the good news, line selection and speed go together hand in hand. So learn how to navigate through the moguls and you will learn how to controll your speed. The moguls serve two missions. They tell us where to turn and they help us turn. They do most of the work. Bear with me for a second. Here is a mogul field. I think we are facing uphill but lets imagin its downhill. I dont think it matters much but it should mimic our view of the mogul run.

Under the chair lift


Looking at it plain like this might be confusing and selecting a line might not be that easy since the bumps are not evenly spaced. Here is the trick. When you ski bumps you do not turn according to a even beat. You do not call the shots. Its the mogul field that calls the shots. Or actually you do it but you do it in harmony with the bumps. Sounds nice doesent it. So lets look closer at what we have in front of us.... here we have the obvious line:

Obvious line

As you see the obvious line snakes through the mogul field nicely. Turning arround the bumps. Not a bad line. Stays close to the fall line and avoids the dredded bumps. Should be easy.... but hey, staying close to the fall line and avoiding the bumps smells like too much speed doesent it. Did I not just mention that the bumps are our firends not our enemy and we need them for speed controll. Thats right. Look at close to where my line ends how straight it becomes! This is something we want to avoid, at least in the beginning. Let me show you something:

Ice and piles of snow

In the photo above I have marked the parts of the moguls with read that I think should be avoided. Or at least the spots where I think turning might be difficult. Its a fearly steep part and its usually icy and hard ending with a check (zipper line [Holmer Simson voice]). Thats where most people turn and causes the moguls to wear in just that place. With violet I have marked the spots where all the snow ends up that the other skiers scrubb off the back side of the moguls and the ruts. And its also not steep. If the back side of the mogul is a black diamond then the front side (do I have the terms front and back in right order?) is like a bunny hill. Let me mark the obvious line here with blue:

Obvious line turning on bad areas

Notice how the blue obvious line deflects off the fall line in the exact same spots marked red. Obviously offcourse. Problem is that our line will be looking like this:



To avoid this horror scenario we need to change our line. One way of doing it would be to make the turns more round but the check at the end of the red area is still going to cause problems for us in the beginning. In true zipper line skiing this is the line to pick but that takes lots of skill and good fittness.

My solution to this is to ski the moguls the other way arround. Perpendicular to the obvious line. This is not always possible but there is different degrees of doing it. My technique builds on burrying my ski tips in the violet area at a 90deg angle to the rut check marked with the blue line. Its a fantastic feeling when you slam into the bumps and the snow explodes. As you explode into the bump and your skis are heavily bent upwards and ready to launch you off into space you flex with your legs. As low as you need. If you get airborn dont be affraid because your speed will be very slow. Turn on the top of the mogul. There your ski tips and tails will be out of the snow and your ski will contact under your boot. Perfect for turning. Next you slip down the back side that is icy but you will have your edges engaged and ski in a fearly straight line. Let me try to draw it out in green for you:

The line to pick in bumps tdk6 style 

Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. Any input very wellcome. Hopefully guys like BB and Pierre will join into the discussion. Here is the obvious line one more time in blue and my suggested line in red.


Bump line opitions 1

Here are a few other lines:

Bump line options 2

Here is the zipper line:



Here is what it might look like in real action. Powder on bumps is my favorite terrain. Hope you enjoyed the reading.


tdk6

That skier in the video has too much rotation and banks towards the inside, skiing like that would certainly not provide you with enough quickness in the moguls. Otherwise good post about the moguls and finding the line amongst them
post #5 of 654
TDK, a great post!  Love the visuals of various lines.


Quote:
From Todo:

The key to bump skiing is to have a great short turn, relaxed legs, strong core, active poles and ability to just have fun.

 

I'd like to add that IMhO, on top of the above, the most important skills of great bump skiing are the ability to flex and extend to maintain ski-snow contact and the ability to initiate those short turns in a flexed position.
Maybe I'm just fleshing out what relaxed legs means.

Most of the crashers I see are extending at the top of the bump and from there, it is all downhill.
post #6 of 654
Great thread tdk6. I think this will open up options to skiers who look at a bump field and see only one set of options for places to turn. Good work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

TDK, a great post!  Love the visuals of various lines.

 

I'd like to add that IMhO, on top of the above, the most important skills of great bump skiing are the ability to flex and extend to maintain ski-snow contact and the ability to initiate those short turns in a flexed position.
Maybe I'm just fleshing out what relaxed legs means.

Most of the crashers I see are extending at the top of the bump and from there, it is all downhill.

Right-on Snowhawk. The timing of the flexing and extending in bumps has to be more disciplined than what would be "allowed" on a groomer. Extending over the tops like many skiers do in their SR turns (not that we would mention any names) will quickly leave an inexperienced skier slamming into the front sides of bumps and gaining speed. I think Bob Barnes has some good visuals of bumps that would show this timing well.

Again, nice work tdk6.
post #7 of 654
Great post, very nice bumps too.  I liked your video, it does not get too much sweeter than powder on bumps.  Agree with Todo on reaction vs planned out line; choosing the type of line is another story, that is done in the first couple of turns.

For many people speed control becomes a big issue, as speed becomes uncomfortable bad things often begin to happen: back seat, hill hugging, stiff lower leg, straight ankles, just to name a few. 

Two points to contribute ho help control this situation:
avoid traversing.  Traversing takes the skier over all the surfaces slick soft icy and tend to reduce many skiers control, they become reactive instead of active.  Keep turning, begin the turn at the completion of a turn.  Use the traverse to access the area you wish to ski, don't insert between turns in the bumps.  Traversing in the bumps is a great drill, not a good way to ski the bumps.

complete your turns.  The surest way to keep your speed down is to turn across the hill.  The completed turn also helps to create a stable platform  to initiate the next turn from.  As a skiers comfort level with the speed increases they can start to straighten out the line and go faster, but to have this trick in the bag gives the skier a form of power brakes to back things down when necessary and keep going.

Thank you again for a very interesting post.  Good topic.
post #8 of 654
Maybe it is just me but I found that as I get the hang of flexing and extending, it too gives me more speed control or maybe just less speed and more control???  Either way, a good thing!

Then again, maybe because I was relaxed enough to flex and extend I was able to avoid the stiff legs and ankles!

It even helped a bunch in the pivit/slip/thwack zipper line.  (Besides it taking the thwack out of it.)

On the other hand, a quick turn edge set on the back/top controls my speed but they are tough to do in a flexed position - at least for me.  The set also tends to make me stiffen up.

Pick your line or pick them as they come and pick the turn as appropriate.

tdk, I have never thought of trying to take the direct opposite of the zipper line so I am going to have to try that.  We rarely get bumps here since they push everything flat every day and when we do, a nice zipper line is about 4 moguls long before the wall/trench.  For the most part, I have to pick em as they come.
OK, you showed us the zipper and the direct opposite - tops.  Any other lines (other than the pivit on the top and sideslip down the back beginner line)?  What about skiing the shoulders?
Edited by Snowhawk - 12/26/09 at 12:53pm
post #9 of 654
Great topic. I love bump topics. Here's my take.

Everyone who stands at the top of a bump run sees a different line. It's not dictated by what the bumps look like. It's dictated by the abilities of that person standing there, looking down the falline. and everyone is different. Everyone has different abilities which only they themselves comprehend, and realize. Therefore, everyone sees a different line and attacks it as their abilities allow.

It's what you understand, not what someone else tells you. Your theory is fine, your lines and colors are fine but it's all different because we are all different. We all don't ski alike. There are no perfect lines. There is only the way you ski it.You can in theory ski bumps many different ways. Only you know your abilities.

To me, know matter what anyone says, the straighter down the bumps. the quicker your feet and hands are, the more efficient at bumps you become and the better it looks.

I will disagree with one thing also, you don't let the bumps dictate when you turn. A big mistake people make is allowing that. Point, if you wait for the bump to turn and the bumps aren't evenly spaced you will lose rythem. There are times when you must improvise and throw in a turn or two even when there isn't a bump. this helps with speed control also.
post #10 of 654
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the great feedback. Is it tiring to ski bumps the way I do? Yes. The constant flexing and extending wears me out. The way I ski over the bumps I have to flex and compress much more in comparisson to someone skiing in the rut or between the moguls. However, the impact when digging my ski tips into soft snow on a mogul vs hitting the side of the hard icy rut with my ski bases is much more easy on my body. Much less abusive. And much easier on my toes and underside of foot. Here is a demo I made once of how to ski over a bump and how that compresses me. How Im extended before and after. You need to be very careful here since you can easily damage your knees this way. Always try to avoid full flexion. Always try to protect your ligaments with your muscles.

post #11 of 654
Sheesh, those pow bumps are, well, delicious and well skied.   

I really like your "line" presentation and agree it would have tied in and not hijacked the other thread.. 

I think we ski similar lines.  I jump to the conclusion, because I think we both choose to ski the line with the best snow to turn on regardless of the terrain beneath it.

Towards the bottom, the pic with the lines designated in red and black displays what I think is the most user friendly line where turns are the most effective speed control.



The left red line is the one I try to hold and prefer.  The left red line starts at  the release of a hanging left turn with a line shift, it should start at the bottom of the page at the center of the bump to be more representative.   Don't get me wrong tdk6, I doubt you are a prof. graphic artist and even if you are,  the only reason I am pointing it out, is that the rest of your graphic traces the preferred line over the tops very well.  IMO, this is a fantastic graphic  The 2 black lines represent heavily scraped continuous rut lines.  The right red line is very similar to the green line in the top pic, although skiable at very low speed it would not induce rhythm or fluidity with speed.  It would however be a good escape route out, be the route of a high speed bailout when skiing the tops, or possibly an introductory line for beginners.

A last note on the left red line, look how good the snow looks over the tops and how round and fluid even your hand drawing is.  I like it.

Here's another similar line over the tops. The blue hashes would be edge sets.


Edited by Nailbender - 12/26/09 at 11:36pm
post #12 of 654
Quote:
tkd6 wrote:

However, the impact when digging my ski tips into soft snow on a mogul vs hitting the side of the hard icy rut with my ski bases is much more easy on my body. Much less abusive. And much easier on my toes and underside of foot.

Agree 100%.  For those don't look to stuff their tips into those loose piles, try it.  It's literally a blast and you can gain a lot of speed control for bonus.
post #13 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

TDK, a great post!  Love the visuals of various lines.


 


I'd like to add that IMhO, on top of the above, the most important skills of great bump skiing are the ability to flex and extend to maintain ski-snow contact and the ability to initiate those short turns in a flexed position.
Maybe I'm just fleshing out what relaxed legs means.

Most of the crashers I see are extending at the top of the bump and from there, it is all downhill.

People that have that up-extention at turn intitiation ingrained cannot ski over the tops because they will indeed extend on top of the bump.
post #14 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post




That skier in the video has too much rotation and banks towards the inside, skiing like that would certainly not provide you with enough quickness in the moguls. Otherwise good post about the moguls and finding the line amongst them
 

Yeah, the clip is not showing typical bump skiing since its powder on bumps. I should have included a regular clip but dont have any handy.
post #15 of 654
Great post!  As I was reading I saw your first line and was thinking that I'd pick the line differently - and low and behold you picked exactly the line I was thinking.  Life if the bumps did indeed get easier once I learned to not get sucked into the zipper line.  Although I still go there on occasion for fun. :) 

Also great points about flex/extend.  In addition to the problem of extending at the top of the bump, I also find a lot of people just keep flexing without extending and when they get bounced off when they run out of flexion.

I also fully agree with ToDo and Lars - picking a line isn't always practical, so best to learn how to pick as you go. I ski in the east where you are rarely alone on a bump run. I often need to change my line because someone cuts in. The downside of picking lines on the fly is that you sometimes end up with nasty lines where you pick up loads of speed, but then it's always a fun challenge to regain control and find a new line on the fly. 

Finally I think the absolute most important thing about moguls is that they are the most fun spot on the mountain and everyone should spend as much time in them as they can. :)  

Elsbeth
post #16 of 654
nice post.  powder bumps = hero bumps.

i know you are NOT aiming to ski the zipperline, but it still strikes me that your initial pole plant is too much to the side, ie i would suggest it be closer to your ski tips.  that might keep your flow more down the hill and avoid having your hands getting back / behind your hips.

wish my hill had moguls like that :)
post #17 of 654
Thread Starter 
docbrad66, no Im not aiming in that video for the zipper line. The snow is also very heavy and Im no my trusted short narrow waised SL skis. Not a great combination. You might be right about the pole plant. Im using very long poles, that might be a reason Im also planting more to the side. Thanks for the tip.
post #18 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Sheesh, those pow bumps are, well, delicious and well skied.   

I really like your "line" presentation and agree it would have tied in and not hijacked the other thread.. 

I think we ski similar lines.  I jump to the conclusion, because I think we both choose to ski the line with the best snow to turn on regardless of the terrain beneath it.

Towards the bottom, the pic with the lines designated in red and black displays what I think is the most user friendly line where turns are the most effective speed control.



The left red line is the one I try to hold and prefer.  The left red line starts at  the release of a hanging left turn with a line shift, it should start at the bottom of the page at the center of the bump to be more representative.   Don't get me wrong tdk6, I doubt you are a prof. graphic artist and even if you are,  the only reason I am pointing it out, is that the rest of your graphic traces the preferred line over the tops very well.  IMO, this is a fantastic graphic  The 2 black lines represent heavily scraped continuous rut lines.  The right red line is very similar to the green line in the top pic, although skiable at very low speed it would not induce rhythm or fluidity with speed.  It would however be a good escape route out, be the route of a high speed bailout when skiing the tops, or possibly an introductory line for beginners.

A last note on the left red line, look how good the snow looks over the tops and how round and fluid even your hand drawing is.  I like it.

Here's another similar line over the tops. The blue hashes would be edge sets.



 

Nailbender, very nice line. Only goes to show how many lines there are in bumps. One big difference between your skiing and mine is the focus. You think like a mogul skier I think like a regular skier. Im going to try to move my thinking more in the way you think and ski for a more direct line. Our line selection is a bit different but I see now how to change it without sacrifying the comfort. Your line is by far the most fluent and natural. Thanks for the input here.
post #19 of 654
Thread Starter 

The discussion here is on which line to ski but I would like to mention one other thing that I think is important and can maybe help others in the bumps the way it has been a great resource for me over the years. There is a big difference between turning and linking turns. The reason every correct bump skiing lesson starts with teaching a short turn down the fall line on a groomer is because this way the skier learns how to use the rebound from previous turn to initiate the next turn. If you stop turning all of a sudden you will not be able to start turning the same way without initiating the first turn in the upcomming sequence of turns without some kind of extra movement. Typically an up-unweight. For this reason I was thaught a long time ago a technique that was called a "pre-turn". The pre turn is a short jabb in the opposite direction, away from the direction of turning. Also called "counter steering" to mimic turning with a motorcyle. Its a way of offsetting the CoM and create tipping. When you link turns the short jab in the opposite direction is the previous turns edge set so once you start linking short turns you will not be thinking of "counter steering" or even pre turning. Its all part of the sequence.

In bumps this is a great way of making effortless turns especially if the bumps are very small. The line is still the same as I have suggested earlier, into the snow and over the bump but start out more mildly with just a bit into the snow and over the shoulder. Just like somebody suggested here earlier. The most important thing to take notise of is that its not the bump that will give you rebound and momentum like people commonly think. Its the valley between the bumps. People always wondered why I could jump so high off seemingly flat water or very small waves with my windsurfing board. The reason was that I jumped off the bottom of the wave not the top. Do this in bumps also, get that momentum going from the bottom and then crash into the soft snow. There should be a small explostion. It should look spectacular. That small expolotion is part of the pre turn Im talking about. Directly after the jabb in the opposite direction your skis edges will easily be relesed eather two footed or one footed and your skis will be swinging arround effortlessly. Especially if you are on top of a bump and only have snow contact under your ski boots. Check out the quick demo I made a few years ago:



At the very end i jump ove a bump. Just to show how much energy is stored in bumps. Its all a question of timing and how quickly your muscles react.

post #20 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Great topic. I love bump topics. Here's my take.

Everyone who stands at the top of a bump run sees a different line. It's not dictated by what the bumps look like. It's dictated by the abilities of that person standing there, looking down the falline. and everyone is different. Everyone has different abilities which only they themselves comprehend, and realize. Therefore, everyone sees a different line and attacks it as their abilities allow.

It's what you understand, not what someone else tells you. Your theory is fine, your lines and colors are fine but it's all different because we are all different. We all don't ski alike. There are no perfect lines. There is only the way you ski it.You can in theory ski bumps many different ways. Only you know your abilities.

To me, know matter what anyone says, the straighter down the bumps. the quicker your feet and hands are, the more efficient at bumps you become and the better it looks.

I will disagree with one thing also, you don't let the bumps dictate when you turn. A big mistake people make is allowing that. Point, if you wait for the bump to turn and the bumps aren't evenly spaced you will lose rythem. There are times when you must improvise and throw in a turn or two even when there isn't a bump. this helps with speed control also.

You are perfectly right. Everyone is different. But this thread is about helping people that find it hard to see the options they have or expand such peoples options that alredy can ski bumps well. Its just a suggestion. I have my line, Nailbender has his and you have yours.
Its also correct that you should be able to put in a turn or two where there is no bump. Sure. But thats all part of adapting to the terrain and the bumps. Just like you need to make ghost turns in race courses sometimes. Same in bumps. No dissagreement. People that are new to bumps I always have scout arround for a bump to turn on. Then stop. After a while they can start linking two or three bumps. My mantra is to stop turning once you get out of rhythm or options. Stop and gather yourself. Then start all over. Bump skiing really need encouragement so cheer leeding and shouting from the chair lift is allowded. Actually it should be mandatory .
post #21 of 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Thanks for all the great feedback. Is it tiring to ski bumps the way I do? Yes. The constant flexing and extending wears me out. The way I ski over the bumps I have to flex and compress much more in comparisson to someone skiing in the rut or between the moguls. However, the impact when digging my ski tips into soft snow on a mogul vs hitting the side of the hard icy rut with my ski bases is much more easy on my body. Much less abusive. And much easier on my toes and underside of foot. Here is a demo I made once of how to ski over a bump and how that compresses me. How Im extended before and after. You need to be very careful here since you can easily damage your knees this way. Always try to avoid full flexion. Always try to protect your ligaments with your muscles.


you shouldnt be tired from skiing any bumps if the flexing(retraction) is happening while the skis are not weighted that much its much less stress on your muscle than when you skis are weighted and your practically squating your body weight each time you flex. If the other forces of skiing (rebound and COM movement down the hill combined) are allowed to let our bodies flex and transition while there is no or next to no weight on the skis, the act of flex and extentsion becomes alot less tiring. 

In your bumps video while fine skiing it lacks the dynamics to let the skis be unweighted at the transition. The only time you should be supporting you weight while the skis are in the fallline and you can do it with your skeleton. while you are flex you really shouldnt be supporting your weight. This is all in all ideal circumstances but why would you want to support your weight from a flexed position? 

TDK6 ever wonder why some people can ski bumps all day long and not get tired? I am sure some of it has to do with conditioning, but I think more of it is that fall bumpers while view as 'bad' skiing from your point of view are using much less energy as they are not weighting their skis as much as you while they are flexed.

I know your not going to agree with this 'line selection" as its fall line bouncing off the bumps skiing but watch as their skis are flex closest toward their bodies they have next to no weight on their skis. the only time they are 100 percent on their skis is when they are extended and using their skeleton to support their weight.



FYI zipperline isnt bad skiing IMO at all the only people that I ever see make that claim are people that have this preconcieved notion that they cant skis that way because its too jarring and or just too fast. both are very not true.
post #22 of 654
Hey, this is great. That video was shot on the chute at Holiday Valley. One of the best runs in the country. They look somewhat icy as usual, but when the snow is good, it's as good as it gets at any resort.

There's days when it's the only run I ski.

BW, good information.
post #23 of 654
Quote:
tdk6 wrote:

Our line selection is a bit different but I see now how to change it without sacrifying the comfort.

You are right, the yellow line is slightly more direct and a little quicker, but is very smooth and rhythmic. You can stick the line with very little adjustment as you are already comfortable and looking to stuff your tips.  You may want to think about trying to engage your shovels quicker after you punch through the front of the bump.  If you pull your feet back under your body quicker and concentrate on getting your tips back on the snow, it will help engage your shovel edges sooner in that loose snow on the top/backside of the mogul.  As another poster above mentioned, your pole plant may be slowing you down slightly.  Try getting those poles a little further forward and instead of stabbing the pole plant, try to cock your wrist/pole forward downhill and snap the pole plant with mostly wrist action, This will keep your hands from dropping slightly.  Remember tdk6, I'm suggesting this by reviewing only a short video and a couple of pics and could be completely wrong, but in order to hold the "yellow line" the turn on the top has to be engaged quickly or the skier will sail weightlessly past the opportunity.
Edited by Nailbender - 12/28/09 at 11:02am
post #24 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
you shouldnt be tired from skiing any bumps if the flexing(retraction) is happening while the skis are not weighted that much its much less stress on your muscle than when you skis are weighted and your practically squating your body weight each time you flex. If the other forces of skiing (rebound and COM movement down the hill combined) are allowed to let our bodies flex and transition while there is no or next to no weight on the skis, the act of flex and extentsion becomes alot less tiring. 
 

You sound very theoretical here. Out on the hill things IMHO does not ad up as neatly as in your presentation. If what you write is true then you would never see any WC skier exhausted after a SL run. The real reason why people get "overly" tired when skiing is because they cramp up because of fear or disscomfort. Or because thats how they do any kind of physical exersise. You need to losen up. Thats why mastering the basic short turn on a flat gromer first is very important. Gives you confidence. Confidence so that you can be relaxed. When this is dield in then line selection becomes the next step in mastering the bumps. All the time you should be relaxed and stop before your muscles cramp up. There is nothing wrong with getting tired while you ski bumps. Id say that the opposite would be more conserning.
post #25 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
In your bumps video while fine skiing it lacks the dynamics to let the skis be unweighted at the transition. The only time you should be supporting you weight while the skis are in the fallline and you can do it with your skeleton. while you are flex you really shouldnt be supporting your weight. This is all in all ideal circumstances but why would you want to support your weight from a flexed position? 
 

I dont know, you tell me:

post #26 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
TDK6 ever wonder why some people can ski bumps all day long and not get tired? I am sure some of it has to do with conditioning, but I think more of it is that fall bumpers while view as 'bad' skiing from your point of view are using much less energy as they are not weighting their skis as much as you while they are flexed.
 

No I have never really wondered about it. To me its quite obious, assuming the technique is top notch and overlooking individuality then its mostly conditioning. Personally I find skiing the zipperline to be the most exhausting kind of bump skiing. Because of the stored energy in 100kg of human + equipment accelerating towards center of earth in close to free fall. Thats why I reccomend some skiers to consider a more comfortable and forgiving line. At Sun Valley they seem to have been able to adapt the alternet line to direct fall line skiing even though its not in the "zipper line" (the rut). For competitions these guys have to ski the zipper line rut but insted of slamming into the rut they try to reach out further with their legs early in the turn and hook their skis into some soft snow. Dont know how well it works in a competition but I wellcome this sort of trend.

Why do you feel I weight my skis so much when flexed? IMO I weight my skis when legs are extended and then I absorb the impact by flexing. This way the snow and the bump and my compression all add to loosing the stored enery. Slamming into the glossy icy rut with extended lets provides me with very little speed controll. And its a beating.
post #27 of 654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I know your not going to agree with this 'line selection" as its fall line bouncing off the bumps skiing but watch as their skis are flex closest toward their bodies they have next to no weight on their skis. the only time they are 100 percent on their skis is when they are extended and using their skeleton to support their weight.



FYI zipperline isnt bad skiing IMO at all the only people that I ever see make that claim are people that have this preconcieved notion that they cant skis that way because its too jarring and or just too fast. both are very not true.
 

I dont know where you got the impression that I think zipper line skiing is bad skiing? I think that zipper line skiing is mogul skiing at a very high level. Not all are fit enough or skilled enough to do it. Or crazy enough. Thats why I suggest an optional line. Note that you can never bee good enough to completely dismiss options. Sooner or later you are going to get injured, lazy, unconditioned and if you are fortunate enough old. Efficiency is not needed the same way when you are young strong and fit.

If I

Here is the SVMM clinic Nailbender provided us in the other thread. I think that if you watch it over a couple of times and compare it to the video you have posted you will see some very obvious differences. There are similarities offcourse like the stance and the pole work but check out how skiing in the zipper line forces you to turn in the rut and from far it looks like they are slamming their skis sideways and not loosing much speed. Actually gaining speed. At the end they are allways out of controll. I think the guy at the beginning of this the SVMM video is totally awsome. Whatever that guy has to say about bump skiing I think we all should listen to.
post #28 of 654
Choosing a line is a great concept, but things do not always go as planned.  It is like Mike Tyson's statement when he was asked about his opponent's plan for their upcoming fight, "Everybody's got a plan, until they get hit."  It is good to plan as many turns ahead as possible, but it also helps to be checking out alternative lines, in case you voluntarily or unintentionally bail from your intended line.  I tend to always be shopping for alternatives, both as a matter of survival, and because it is fun to sometimes take the line less skied.

The smoothest and least physically demanding line is generally not the zipper line, and I don't like being repeatedly forced into turning in a specific spot for very long anyway, so skiing across the fall line and looking for the flattest route through the bumps has always appealed to me.

"Beware of well traveled paths, they lead to ruts."   Henry David Thoreau
Edited by mudfoot - 12/29/09 at 9:16am
post #29 of 654
Thread Starter 

Shopping for alternative lines is just what this thread is all about. Great input, thanks.

post #30 of 654
Quote:
tdk6 wrote:

At Sun Valley they seem to have been able to adapt the alternet line to direct fall line skiing even though its not in the "zipper line" (the rut). For competitions these guys have to ski the zipper line rut but insted of slamming into the rut they try to reach out further with their legs early in the turn and hook their skis into some soft snow. Dont know how well it works in a competition but I wellcome this sort of trend.

Here's good look at how Shane has adapted SVMM and his QCT to the WC rut line.  This is from the an event a couple weeks ago and was the best scoring run that day and was also the fastest by almost 1 sec.  These are the best turns down a WC rut line I have ever seen.  Compare his run with Cota's, as I believe Cota's tech is overall representative of the current WC tech.  Shane leads with his tips and Cota basically pivots his tails while heel slamming to control speed.  Take a look at the videos and tell me what you see.



Here's Jeremy Cota's run...

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