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PSIA vs. Racers? - Page 2

post #31 of 47
In PMTS, there is a movement called two-footed release. I find it to be a pivot sideslip. HH may disagree with my descrption, but I calls them as I see 'em!

I have Arcmeister's Pathways to Parallel. The micro wedge is an outstanding movement that starts in a very narrow wedge and ends in parallel. It is accomplished by starting a very narrow wedge and tipping the inside ski to its little toe edge. There is a little drag of the edge and the ouside ski cathes up with the inside ski and they are parallel.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 06, 2001 09:20 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Rick H ]</font>
post #32 of 47
HH in his first video has a progression from wedge to parallel, so it received some PMTS mention in the past.
post #33 of 47
I am dissapointed that you would make a comment like kids are cross blocking incorrectly because they are not taught proper technique. In some cases yes, but in many cases the kids are being taught correctly, just not doing it right. And ya know why? Because they're kids. They almost always get better as they get older. Racing tends to inprove with young racers as their mind improves. Another thing, flat ski when cross blocking then skiding around the gate? Don't get it. How about, the unweighting of the down hill ski do to up hill rotation of the upper body, this unweighting of the down hill ski causes skiding.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 07, 2001 10:26 AM: Message edited 1 time, by CERA F ]</font>
post #34 of 47
Join Us at

Why are all the good racers European?

We would love to hear your enlightened comments.
post #35 of 47
I agree, as you point out, that there other issues that show up, I just mention the most obvious one I see so much of.

As to how they are taught, I do not allow my kids to cross-block until they are technically skilled (and big/strong) enough to carve a solid turn on the right line, that will stand up to the disruptive potential of the cross-block/gate impact. My kids (especially the lightweights) prove race after race that a carved turn around the pole (benifiting from the extra angles an inside clear creates) is much faster than sloppy skidded turns with a cross-block. It should be obvious that I'm talking about coaches that don't understand that a racer's line and turn quality create a cross-block (or an inside clear) usage, and that the cross-block does not create the line, and can only disrupt a turn with shakey mechanics and cost time.

Maybe in your neck of the woods there is a higher level of knowledgable and experienced coaches, but I see too little of that in club/HS programs around here (except my own former racers who have grown up to become coaches). The few of us who have been devote's of sound skiing skills -vs- volume gate bashing have turned out some pretty great little skiers who are not only fast but love to, and can, rip it up in any snow on any terrain.

Racing is simply an adaptive application of sound fundamental skiing skills, it is not a mystic art. Look at the US Team and you see a super talented guy like Bode Miller who dwells below his potential because years ago some coach didn't dicipline him to learn the value of a balanced stance. He lives or dies on his recovery ability to save it from the back seat. Fast or crash. Potential unfufilled. I hope he gets lucky in Salt Lake, but if he does I hope too many kids don't copy his skiing style, they may not have his talent to get away with it.
post #36 of 47
A coach when I lived in Germany made an excellent observation once about why racers end up being such powerful and well-rounded skiers. He pointed out that if you watch ice-hockey players skate . . . they are quite amazing skaters, but they DON'T think much about their skating. Their attention is focused on the puck, other players, strategy. The things they do on their skates is largely unconcious. Ski racers are focused primarily on their line and overall tactics - the movements they use to accomplish this become largely unconcious.

Sure ski racers are not necessarily at pulling triple tricks in the moguls, or inverted arials - just as hockey players are not great at pulling Ballet-Skating moves, or as fast as Speed Skaters are. But regardless of such specialties that exist on the sides you can be sure that National level hockey players are better skaters than WE are, just as World Cup level skiers . . . .
post #37 of 47
Wow! That is fascinating! I never thought of that. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Ski Into the Future'. The "future" being the goal of just getting the heck down faster than anyone else. Then it becomes a whole form follows function kind of thing. Really interesting. thanks!
post #38 of 47
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lisamarie:
Wow! That is fascinating! I never thought of that. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Ski Into the Future'. The "future" being the goal of just getting the heck down faster than anyone else. Then it becomes a whole form follows function kind of thing. Really interesting. thanks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
post #39 of 47
Always make sure to bow towards any deities in the room - lest they feel slighted by everything you say!
post #40 of 47
Oh Zeus, Zeus. I'm sorry I turned you down in this thread: http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...&f=11&t=000056

I tried to be polite about it, but I guess I really hurt your feelings!
post #41 of 47
I agree with Zues,
post #42 of 47
C'mon Go. Everybody knows that you and zeus are the same user, so stop making a fool of yourself.

Back on topic: Just like PSIA and PMTS, racing technique, and what you are calling PSIA, {which, BTW is a misnomer, PSIA is an organization, not a technique perhaps need to re-examine their teaching techniques and come to some conclusion as to what is efficient skiing. Then you can differentiate between what is efficient for racers, and what works for recreational skiers.
post #43 of 47
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lisamarie:
Wow! That is fascinating! I never thought of that. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Ski Into the Future'. The "future" being the goal of just getting the heck down faster than anyone else. Then it becomes a whole form follows function kind of thing. Really interesting. thanks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was origianlly a PSIA quote. The thought was to flow freely from one turn into the other, to keep the CM moving downhill, to always be moving and not static.

In any thread we have, whatever words we use, the message is only as good as what is interpreted and fed back. The delay of feedback makes the threads interesting. The need for instructors/facilitators!!

Hearing "Ski into the future" can be interpreted different ways by the different styles of skiing.

For both racing and recreational skiing, planning ahead is important. How far down the hill do you look while skiing?

As racers, the more gates ahead you can read the better.

As patrollers, the more eyes in your head to look towards the woods and far downhill for needy skiers as you're skiing the better.

As a recreational skier, ....? The comfort zone of not looking at your skiis is training in balance, trusting your body movements, and hopefully you are looking ahead 2-3 turns.

So, where do you look while skiing?

Keep in mind if you follow what looks good, you might not.....
post #44 of 47
Fortunately, I learned pretty early that the only way to avoid motion sickness is to avoid looking down at your skis. This also applies when teaching aerobics.

Awhile back, I worried about doing gates at one of the Ski Epirits at Whistler. Not only am I not very competitve, I am lousy at short radius turns.
Someone referenced another thread where I had spoken about having a great run, simply because I focused on choosing a line. I think it was JohnH. who said that running gates is the same idea; Think about choosing your line.
This is why the thing Todd said made so much sense to me. Instead of focusing on "how do I make this short radius turn?", the idea should be "what is the best line I can pick to get down this hill safely and swiftly?"
post #45 of 47
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Actually would it not involve reaching "out" to clear the gate to the inside, i.e. not crossblocking?

Right you are, Norefjell! My comment that clearing the gate involves reaching "in" comes from the thought that reaching your arm in front of your body is "reaching in" and reaching out to the side is "reaching out." But you are correct that it is the inside arm of the turn reaching toward the outside of the turn, when it reaches across in front of the body to clear the gate. Thanks for the correction!

LH--I'll get back to you via e-mail. I've been away at Winter Park for a couple days, so I've gotten a little behind here at EpicSki--as well as everything else! Talk to you soon.

Arcmeister--great post about the cause-effect chain that can result from inappropriate cross-blocking (12/6 9:07 am). For what it's worth, I agree with you that many kids unfortunately receive less-than-adequate coaching. I've seen more than a few coaches out there giving extremely questionable technical advice. But even if they are giving sound technical advice, they should work on developing the fundamentals of good turns with discipline, before they allow the kids to cross-block and cause such problems in their technique.

Good discussion, everyone.

I will add that this time--at Winter Park--I DID have the privilege of having Deb Armstrong join my group. Besides being an extraordinary athlete (obviously), Deb remains a passionate student of the sport, and now of the art of teaching it. It was a great pleasure to ski with her. She is a credit to the sport, and to the profession of ski instruction. And her enthusiastic participation is a strong endorsement of the validity of what we are doing.

I mentioned this discussion at EpicSki, and she was intrigued that such a difference would be perceived. She did say that when she was growing up and focusing on her racing, she sometimes played around with the exercises and drills that her parents (both ski instructors) did. She said she wasn't always clear, at that time, about the relevance of those drills. But now she recognizes the importance of the fundamental skills in skiing--skills she probably once developed and employed quite unconsciously.

Deb also expressed shock at the relative inability of many of today's young racers to perform such fundamental drills as "pivot slips"--drills that don't appear to resemble "ski racing," but that develop--and showcase--some extremely important skiing skills.

More snow in the Colorado Rockies! The skiing is finally becoming excellent. Mary Jane at Winter Park has mid-winter-like snow, and some extremely good bumps on "Gandy Dancer" and some of the other other great trails. If anyone has had doubts about the conditions, let me assure you--it's time to wax your skis and start playing!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 07, 2001 09:27 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #46 of 47

Right you are about Debbie being a student of the sport. Earlier this fall I had a good discussion with her relative to how much fun she has had in adapting to the new techniques of the shorter skis and large sidecuts. She told me how hard she works to break the old habits and how rewarded she felt about the fun she now has. As we all know, old habits can be hard to change. One comment she made was as to how surprised she was about so many ski team alumni being so reluctant to try the new skis.
post #47 of 47
Yes, Norfjell--I got that same enthusiasm from her. She is excited about skiing and learning still, in a way I've rarely seen in ex-racers of Deb Armstrong's caliber. Phil and Steve Mahre, for all their dedication to teaching and helping others through the Mahre Training Center, were very reluctant to try the new skis, and even moreso to adapt their techniques to them, for many years. To their credit, their teaching philosophy is highly skills-based, so all the exercises and focuses of the Mahre Training Center are applicable to all skiing. It wasn't until three years ago that I detected any real curiosity about learning in the Mahres. Until then, for the 12 or so years that I worked with them, I never once heard them ask any of the MTC coaches for advice, suggestions, or feedback on their own skiing. It was fun to see, though, when they finally did come around to a "beginner's mindset" again.

But Deb Armstrong is a passionate student of skiing and teaching. Her enthusiasm for both is infectious. She is fun not only to watch, but to ski with, and to ride the lift with. I would think that her ski camps and women's clinics at Taos would be well worthwhile! She's a great ambassador for the sport.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
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