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divergent inside ske tip

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
Can anyone suggest a likely cause of a divergent inside ski? ie: the inside ski turns more then the outside ski, resulting in non parallel skis, (tips farther apart then tails). I have 3 friends, all level 3 instructors, that do this.
It's easy to explain that the inside leg is rotating. What I'm trying to understand is why. Is there insuffecient pressure or edge angle? Or is it an indication that they are not properly balanced?(Hipps to far back?)
Any ideas?
post #2 of 13
Not enough weight or pressure on the inside foot and/or...insufficient steering with the inside foot.
post #3 of 13
Perhaps they all stand on the outside edges of their skis? So, the inner ski will have more bite, and turn more....
post #4 of 13
Gosh level III instructors. Why should I even comment. Anyway, here's what causes diverence why I'm skiing inefficiently--

1: Hips rotating in direction of turn instead of developing a slight counter. If the hips rotate into the turn, the inside ski will come along and oversteer. A related movement is have your outside come through the turn first rather than inside. Solution, work on strong inside half; make sure your inside half drives through the turn first.

2: Inactivity of the inside ski. Failure to edge, and steer the inside ski; just being lazy with it. Solution, one-footed skiing (or 99%/1% skiing), skiing on the inside ski only, e.g., white-pass turns.


Hey, I'm just a level I so all you gold pins feel free to add to or correct my suggestions. One of these years I hope to try for a silver pin.
post #5 of 13
Seems to me that another possibility is overtipping the inside ski. With the focus on inside leg steering, it is possible to tip the inside ski more than the outside one in a carved turn, decreasing the turning radius of the inside ski when compared to the outside ski.
post #6 of 13
KAZOOSKI: It's easy to explain that the inside leg is rotating. What I'm trying to understand is why. Is there insufficient pressure or edge angle? Or is it an indication that they are not properly balanced?(Hips to far back?)

Why? Basically because the inside ski (in particular the tip of the ski) is not engaged. Period. Many skiers take the "lead with a strong inside half" expression too literally. The tend to lift the tip of the inside ski and point to the new turn. Actually it is too much steering with the inside foot!
post #7 of 13
I am thinking that diverging turns are used when one wishes to change direction quickley? As long as we are on the subject what are scissor-step turn with pole plant? More importantly what are they used for? Really hoping for a reply on this one.
post #8 of 13
There is a couple of causes or diverging tips and many level III instructors diverge their tips.

At the lower levels of skiing divergence can be caused by scissoring the inside ski forward along with some banking and upper body rotation. That is not likely the cause in level III instructors.

The most likely cause is not keeping up with the skis as the forces of the turn move progressively behind the skier. The divergence starts with moving the hips laterally instead of tipping the feet and progresses to dropping the inside hip back and inside. The skier is no longer in a powerful position and the inside ankle opens up, the inside shoulder drops and there is a slight rotation out of counter. Its easily visible in good skiers in a high speed carve. The skiers inside femur appears to be almost level, the upper body is excessively countered in relation to the hips and the tips are diverging.

The cure is to start all movements from the feet by tipping the feet from the ankles. This allows active forward movement to close the inside ankle and open up the inside knee. The hips move forward and into the power position throughout the turn. Active ankles is something that is progressive and constantly changing to match the changes in the direction of the resutant forces in the turn.
post #9 of 13
I agree with TomB. There might be other causes, but this is a real big one.

ritski: I don't think these turns are used for anything. They used to be used for finishing the turn when the outside ski couldn't hold anymore pressure and a movement to the inside to finish up was helpful. In the 70's it was called cramponnage, and there was another version called scissor. Henri Duvillard used it very well on the Pro Tour. Later, I talked to a guy named Andre Arnold who preferred a stem step. He said he loved to race against the guys who did scissor steps. They were focussed on exiting the turn, and he was focussed on entering. He said, "I always could beat them." With the advent of the new skis, there are occasional stepping movements to compensate for weird situations, but with both skis carving, it's a little out of time.
post #10 of 13
I'm going to throw my lot in with Ken K.
I agree that a square a hip position relative to the tips will very likely result in a tip divergence. This is quite common among skiers who have/use a slight amount of hip/mid/upper body rotation to make their turns. And since most people naturally stand with their toes pointed apart, it's a natural body position.
And I agree with his second point that an inactive inside leg will contribute to this result, especially if an "A-frame" exists.
post #11 of 13
A common cause of this is a mis-guided intent of what to do with the inside ski. An intent to "turn it" engages large muscles in upper leg, over-twisting with out appropriate edging, resulting in the divergance.

The solution here is to have a similar intent for both skis(feet). I'd suggest an intent of rolling/tipping the insisde foot so that ski engages its edge first, and then as the rest of the leg responds, resulting rotary will blend with the edging for a more effective result.

Keeping that inside foot pulled back so its tip stays engaged will enhance the whole process.
post #12 of 13
Oh my. I have been working on active inside and now I am at times divergent :

If any one wants to host a pic I have the perfect one of me for a MA\Critique of the divergent ski "problem".
post #13 of 13
Originally posted by ritski:
.. what are scissor-step turn with pole plant? More importantly what are they used for?
Not really a definitive answer but...

Pamporova Bulgaria early Jan 1984. Intermediate (we were stemmers/basic parallelers) lessons (fur hours a day for a week) with ex Bulgarian youth slalom team member. No snow since november and the slopes were a pretty blue colour, right down through the base, actual ice.

The rental skis were Omesofts and stayed in touch with the snow/ice, oooh, about the length of the boot.

Comment from instructor (23, degree in sports science and FLUENT in four languages) 'I wouldn't normally teach this but it's the only way we are going to be able to make a turn and not slip over all way down the hill'. (Actually, we did some other fancy turns but it's too long ago to remember)

He got us to step the uphill up at the beginning of the turn, diverging the tips at the same time when starting turns, before engaging the little bit of edge we had. Them skis were things like 180s for a 110 lbs person!

He called them scissor turns and said they only used them in slalom racing.

Even he fell over twice on the ice, but our group was the only one to get a full complement of people down the ski school slalom course and we beat the pants off the rest on time, too!
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