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Duck stanced mounted ski bindings

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 
Somewhere ove the internet I've found an olde thread, now revived, an
interesitng discussion about mounting bindings on fat ski positioned so
to "force" in the skier a duck stance (toe out, heel in), both with
telemark bindings and on alpine ones (only on fat skis, narrow, racelike
skis aren't really cut for such a thing but the various SOMMA and other
boots with "offset" from the centerline looks like have been thought with
a similar end)
This discussion picked my interest because it was not addressing a particular
orthopaedic problem or similar instead, people was discussing the positive
effect that mounting bindings in a "duck stance" could have for the
average Joe.

Epic has quite a number (279 searching with "duck stance ski") of threads
addressing the duck stance mounting or SOMA (and alikes) boots from a "corrective"
point of view.
In an old Epicski thread
(http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/74790/duck-feet#post_988412 )
I've read that (post number 8 from jdistefa)
[Quote]To add to Michael's comment about the bindings, Marker makes a plate
that allows drilling for a toe-out stance. So, you can buy a 2-3 degree
toe-out (abducted) boot and add another 1-3 degrees
(depending on bootsole length) by using the Marker system.[/Quote]

Now, I am asking myself if from a technical point of view, is there any
benefit for "normal" skiers, I.e. increased performances, decreased
fatigue etc...the only thread I read which was touching that
is this :
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/47902/duckstance-skiing

and hendrix skis site is mentioned. Agreed, that thread of ours is from
'06, but I went to the hendrix site and found a thesis on duck stanced
skiing discussing it, unfortunately it's only is swedish...
http://www.hendryxskis.se/images/stories/exarb_pontus-luttkens.pdf
 
0)Has this been discussed already? Yes, plenty of threads around
1)Let's say that "\/" this is the duck stance, how'd you call this :"/\"" ?
  What the effects of these mounting on our skiing?
2)Is that Marker plate still existing, where can info be found about it
  (link, images, etc)?
3)Has ever been thought of an adjustable plate which allows one to mount
  ski bindings on it and "play" with warious degrees of "duckiness" (sort
  of like the snowboard bindings which allows to adjust the orientation
  by rotating it)
3)On fat skis, has anyone experimented with placing the bindings in that
  stance? Or in a different mounting than aligned straight with the ski?
4)Has had any detectable positive result?
5)Where (off piste in powder, or on hardpack, on moguls, fast speed,
  slow speed)?
6)Has the technique spread around in these years or has disappeared?
  Judging from the info available around, it has either disappeared or,
  it's a bit of "hush hush"...
 
BTW, for me this is a bit "academic" since when I assume my "natural"
standing stance, my toes are so straight as to almost point inward
toward each other and when I walk, the lifted foot turns on the inside...
 
post #2 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post

1)Let's say that "\/" this is the duck stance, how'd you call this :"/\"" ?
  What the effects of these mounting on our skiing?
 
BTW, for me this is a bit "academic" since when I assume my "natural"
standing stance, my toes are so straight as to almost point inward
toward each other and when I walk, the lifted foot turns on the inside...

 
"/\" is called pigeon toed.
If your natural stance is pigeon toed, a duck stance might counteract that. This is the first I've heard of this concept for alpine skis.The traditional method of dealing with this is canting. One benefit of duck for snowboarders with normal stances is that the stance position facilitates flexion and extension of the legs.
post #3 of 8
 I hear that there is an Atomic binding coming out that will allow various degrees of duckiness.

I've been skiing in "duck" boots for a few years now. It just feels normal to me. It may provide more inside edge at the expense of outside edge. May also strengthen steering of the outside foot, weaken steering of the inside foot.
post #4 of 8
Mounting bindings in a duck footed position has been done for a long time though not often. One obvious problem is it creates a definite right and left ski. It is easily accomplished by placing a spacer between the ski and the mounting jig when placed on the ski on opposite sides front and back which misaligns the jig on the ski prior to drilling.
 
The abducted (duck footed) stance whether in ski boots or created by  binding mounting is a method of accommodating or compensating for uncorrected over pronation . Pronation is a tri-planer movement consisting of dorsiflexion (sagittal plane) eversion (frontal plane) and abduction (transverse plane).  The abducted stance is a transverse plane accommodation for the over pronation.
 
It is apparent that the need for, use of, as well as the timing of pronation, in the ski turn, is not well understood and based on most technical discussions of the sport misapplied.


Unitam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
post #5 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post



"/\" is called pigeon toed.
If your natural stance is pigeon toed, a duck stance might counteract that. This is the first I've heard of this concept for alpine skis.The traditional method of dealing with this is canting. One benefit of duck for snowboarders with normal stances is that the stance position facilitates flexion and extension of the legs.
 
Wrong, if your toes naturally point in, the tendency will be for your skis to assume a convergent position. Now picture your feet in their natural pigeon-toed position, in duck stance mounted bindings. The ski are now in a more convergent position, not less.
post #6 of 8

OIC - thank you

post #7 of 8
This is an interesting discussion that as a bootfitter has come up in discussions more recently in stores I've worked in due to Fischer's SOMA boot build.  I've only had two customers in the past 12 to 15 years who due to structural anomalies had to have a ski/binding mount that necessitated turning out at least one of the bindings.  Even with a footbed that lended structural support bringing the foot "back" several degrees (see Ray above), the correcton there was not nearly enough and if mounted normally the right ski, if dangling, would have been pointing to 2 o'clock.  We found the widest ski available that would suit this blue skier (over 10 years ago now so not as many available then as today) and we had our tech turn that binding (right leg) clockwise as much as possible to make a go of it.
It "worked" to where the customer was happy.  Probably not thrilled but able to get on the slopes and manage his turns. 
EJL
post #8 of 8

DuckStance revisited:

 

The guys at Hendryx Skis have updated their duckstance analysis (in English)....what do you think?

 

http://www.hendryxskis.se/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=57

 

Aside from the dedication of left-and-right skis, how does the theory and analysis hold up...based on your experience (if any)?

 

Thanks.

 

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