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Will skiing bumps make you better at skiing powder?

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by young unnamed bear 




  I'm saying that skiing bumps will NOT make me better at shredding pow.  


. Id say being a good bump skier will make you better at skiing powder, what do other coaches think?
 
post #2 of 29
I'm no coach...but skiing bumps will make you a better powder skier...and a better tree skier...and a better groomer skier....and a better crud skier....and a better breakable crust skier...
post #3 of 29
Definitely!
Skiing powder is very similar to skiing bumps in many ways... only in powder you are compressing the snow to create your own bumps.
Both require a big range of movement in the lower body.
post #4 of 29
With modern skis there's less specific carryover.  Basically people just need to learn to ski.  In terms of managing terrain mtbing's a good supplement though -- e.g. areas like Snowbasin with lots of fun gullies are pretty similar to mtbing wiht lots of g-outs.
post #5 of 29
Absolutely. Bumps and powder are far closer together in terms of skills than either is to skiing groomers.
post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

With modern skis there's less specific carryover.  Basically people just need to learn to ski.  In terms of managing terrain mtbing's a good supplement though -- e.g. areas like Snowbasin with lots of fun gullies are pretty similar to mtbing wiht lots of g-outs.

 

I agree(about less carry over) unless we are talking about tighter turns than I still think a good bump skier will be better all around.
post #7 of 29
Good bump skiers are good all-around skiers, for sure.  And there are some things like good hand discipline that definitely come to the fore in 3d snow that you can get away with more on groomers.  It's also true that up-unweighting in soft snow or bumps is generally no good, and as most can't ski without it, either are very good reality checks. 
post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Good bump skiers are good all-around skiers, for sure.  And there are some things like good hand discipline that definitely come to the fore in 3d snow that you can get away with more on groomers.  It's also true that up-unweighting in soft snow or bumps is generally no good, and as most can't ski without it, either are very good reality checks. 

+2 why is down unweighting such a mystery? maybe a topic for another thread...
post #9 of 29
Just from a student perspective here...  ever since I started skiing bumps with regularity (two or three seasons ago now) my overall skiing -- spring glop, powder (yes, we get it in New England), ice, packed powder -- has gone way up.

I subscribe to the belief that a good turn will work just about anywhere, but you need bumps to expose whatever flaws you have.
post #10 of 29
 Kevin

What was it that one of the ESA Coaches said?  When you ski bumps it reveals skill issues that you have everywhere but are masked on groomers.(paraphrased)
post #11 of 29
Offcourse bump skiing will improve your overall skiing skills if you do it correctly. The problem I have seen with bump skiers is that they become very dependent on a very thight line and feed every turn on previous turn. Not one turn without annother. On gromers it morphs into fast line slow skiing. Not allways offcourse but there is a tendency.

Yes, people that cannot ski bumps have issues with basic technique. Just as in powder. Or when carving rr-trax. Or even wedging. 

In the old days of submerged powder skiing bumps and powder skiing were more similair than now when powder can be skied on top of and bumps are hard to find to almost non existent. As for up-unweighting vs down-unweighing I see very little difference. Its basicly just a timing question. In submerged powder you up-unweight but insted of pushing against a hard pist lifting your body up at transition you are pushing your legs down into fluffy bottomless snow in the belly of the turn and your upper body remains in the same plane just as your skis remain in the same plane on a groomer. If you ski submerged powder you really have to work with your legs. Pumping up-down-up-down constantly. Your turns are so called retraction turns. Some call this down-unweighting but I dont like to use that term because up-unweighing and down-unweighing are not interchangable. You cannot swap up for down. You need something to push you up before you can unweight down. Bump, virtual bump, rebound to name a few. My favoreite terrain has allways been powder on bumps. My worst ever terrain is powder on icy bumps. Closely related but far away. With floating modern phat skis however even that kind of terrain can be great.
post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

 Kevin

What was it that one of the ESA Coaches said?  When you ski bumps it reveals skill issues that you have everywhere but are masked on groomers.(paraphrased)

Didn't hear that one at ESA.  I like Bob Barnes' "if you want to ski bumps, you've gotta eat a few along the way". 

The other learn-to-ski-bumps comment I've often heard is the "it's not that you can't ski bumps, it's that you can't ski, and bumps prove it".  But that's pretty harsh (with a certain element of truth to it), so i don't think you'll ever hear an ESA coach say that.
post #13 of 29
Skiing bumps will make you better at skiing powder than skiing groomed runs will, but not as good as skiing powder will, imho of course.
post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Offcourse bump skiing will improve your overall skiing skills if you do it correctly. The problem I have seen with bump skiers is that they become very dependent on a very thight line and feed every turn on previous turn. Not one turn without annother. On gromers it morphs into fast line slow skiing. Not allways offcourse but there is a tendency.

Yes, people that cannot ski bumps have issues with basic technique. Just as in powder. Or when carving rr-trax. Or even wedging. 

In the old days of submerged powder skiing bumps and powder skiing were more similair than now when powder can be skied on top of and bumps are hard to find to almost non existent. As for up-unweighting vs down-unweighing I see very little difference. Its basicly just a timing question. In submerged powder you up-unweight but insted of pushing against a hard pist lifting your body up at transition you are pushing your legs down into fluffy bottomless snow in the belly of the turn and your upper body remains in the same plane just as your skis remain in the same plane on a groomer. If you ski submerged powder you really have to work with your legs. Pumping up-down-up-down constantly. Your turns are so called retraction turns. Some call this down-unweighting but I dont like to use that term because up-unweighing and down-unweighing are not interchangable. You cannot swap up for down. You need something to push you up before you can unweight down. Bump, virtual bump, rebound to name a few. My favoreite terrain has allways been powder on bumps. My worst ever terrain is powder on icy bumps. Closely related but far away. With floating modern phat skis however even that kind of terrain can be great.

so you cant force a down unweight? at all?
post #15 of 29

INMHO to answer the thread question, Yes, skiing bumps will in fact improve your powder skiing. My basis for believing these two types of skiing allow for skill stet carryover from one to another is that a high percentage of accomplished bump skiers and powder skiers ski with their feet close together , creating a narrow platform with their feet that allow for quick turns and god forbid I'm going to use the word pivoting. Weighting might be different in each type of terrain , but in my observations I have seen very few people ski bums and powder well in a wide stance. . So I associate a carryover from one to another for no other reason than stance simalarity.

In bumps I think you want to be able to ski up and over the bump maintaining ski to snow contact , if your feet are closer toegther you are more able to turn your skis in the narrow corridor of the trough. With powder , I still think you need to get  your skis (fat skis and rockers etc have changed this) up and out of the snow allowing you to change direction and start another turn and a narrower stance in my opinion better facilitates this.

Maybe my opinions are completely flawed and consider the source but that's the connection I make when associating powder skiing with bump skiing and how one lends itself to the other. I think on a weighted basis the simalarity in stance with the two are the connection.

post #16 of 29
Yes, skiing bumps will improve your powder skiing & vice versa.  For me the movement pattern is very similar.  There are different styles of bump skiing though.  I have known many great bump skiers over the years who were not necessarily versatile all around skiers, same with some racers.  To be really comfortable with all conditions, one must get mileage in all conditions.
JF
post #17 of 29
I approve of this assumption.

Skill sets in skiing overlap much like they do in golf.  You have a great short game, and that helps you when you don't have to try to hit the ball further, or take more chances when approaching the green.

I still believe though that you can be a good powder skier and not ski bumps. And a person that doesn't ski bumps may be better in powder than someone that is very good in the bumps.

But, in all I think that skiing bumps will improve skills that are used in the powder.
post #18 of 29

Skiing bumps can't but help, I'd think.


Incidentally, I've never, never, never seen a REALLY good skier who sucks in bumps. Just saying.

post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




so you cant force a down unweight? at all?

 

An up-unweight gives you much more time. If you stand on the floor with extended feet and suddenly flex them and drop towards the ground you will feel the pressure under your feet momentarily lighten. That is DUW. Notice how fast you have to be to beat gravity for any kind of drastical sensation of unweighting. Not much time for any kind of movement turning the skis. But when you ski you can for example use a bump to push you up and then after sufficient upward motion is achieved you flex your legs to absorb the bump and pull off a nice transition. IMO a DUW always requires an upward force be it a  bump, powder rebound, turn rebound, virtual bump, pre turn etc. Here is an example from my video archives if you allow:



Your question if you can force an down-unweight is probably where the secret lies. In the word "force".
post #20 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




An up-unweight gives you much more time. If you stand on the floor with extended feet and suddenly flex them and drop towards the ground you will feel the pressure under your feet momentarily lighten. That is DUW. Notice how fast you have to be to beat gravity for any kind of drastical sensation of unweighting. Not much time for any kind of movement turning the skis. But when you ski you can for example use a bump to push you up and then after sufficient upward motion is achieved you flex your legs to absorb the bump and pull off a nice transition. IMO a DUW always requires an upward force be it a  bump, powder rebound, turn rebound, virtual bump, pre turn etc. Here is an example from my video archives if you allow:



Your question if you can force an down-unweight is probably where the secret lies. In the word "force".




Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

Yes, skiing bumps will improve your powder skiing & vice versa.  For me the movement pattern is very similar.  There are different styles of bump skiing though.  I have known many great bump skiers over the years who were not necessarily versatile all around skiers, same with some racers.  To be really comfortable with all conditions, one must get mileage in all conditions.
JF

I agree with your thoughts some bump skier who know nothing else well know nothing else. My OP was talking about people who are already 'good' in their mind in other areas but cant ski bumps. for these people learning to ski bump will open a whole new turn shape to them that they didnt have before.
post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post








I agree with your thoughts some bump skier who know nothing else well know nothing else. My OP was talking about people who are already 'good' in their mind in other areas but cant ski bumps. for these people learning to ski bump will open a whole new turn shape to them that they didnt have before.

There are several reasons people cannot ski in bumps. One of them is that they up-unweight all their turns. This does not work in bumps. My photo montage shows it clearly. You need to be able to flex at the exact moment normal skiers extend. Another reason is that skiers have a problem adapting their line and movements to the terrain.
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post IMO a DUW always requires an upward force be it a  bump, powder rebound, turn rebound, virtual bump, pre turn etc.

You are at direct odds with LeMaster here. From page 99 in Ultimate Skiing: "In this book's terminology, up-unweighting always starts with the skier's center of gravity being pushed and accelerated upward, away from the snow. This happens is the skier pushes the body upward by extending, [...]. It can also happen if a bump, real or virtual, pushes the skier upward, even if the skier reduces the that push by flexing at the same time."

What LeMaster calls down un-weighting, you call retraction turns.

I predict you will get a lot of push back on your theories as long as there are different definitions for the same terms.
post #23 of 29
I agree skiing bumps will make you better everywhere, but learning to ski bumps slow, with good technique and in control will make you even better. Speed can mask issues as well. Nothing like showing your flaws in slow mo.
post #24 of 29
Can you be a 'good skier' and not ski bumps well? 

Have you met any skiers who could ski different lines, and turn types, in the bumps well that couldn't adapt those skills fairly rapidly to pretty much anything else on the mountain (straight lining a big chute or dropping big cliffs don't count)? 

Yes, being a good bump skier makes you a better powder skier.
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by retroEric View Post




You are at direct odds with LeMaster here. From page 99 in Ultimate Skiing: "In this book's terminology, up-unweighting always starts with the skier's center of gravity being pushed and accelerated upward, away from the snow. This happens is the skier pushes the body upward by extending,

 
Yes, up-unweighting always starts with the skier's center of gravity being pushed and accelerated upwards but as you do that, accelerate upwards and push your mass up you actually increase pressure under feet and skis. The exact opposite of the word "unweighting". The unweighting part in a up-unweighting takes place as your extention stops. Until then pressure increased. So if you extend at transition and push your mass up and then you retract your legs or if you extend in the belly of the turn and as you are pushed up by the rebound of your skis and then retract or if you run over a bump and let it push you up and then you retract I see little difference between up/down-unweighting.
post #26 of 29
Retraction and down-unweighting are very different in my terminology.  In most (97.5%) turns your center of mass will rise in the transition (up-un-weighting). For slow speed turns you may require an extension movement followed by a sudden decrease in extension to un-weight (or up- un-weight) the skis (making them easy to turn). At higher speed, with bigger terrain features or steeper terrain you will require a retraction movement (flexing of the joints) to deal with the pressure between turns... Center of mass still moves up so still up so still I call it "up-unweighting".
post #27 of 29
There are at least two ways of defining up/down-unweighting. The traditional way is to couple it to body movements for initiating a turn. If you extend your legs lifting the CoM up in ref. to the snow then its up and if you flex your legs and drop your CoM down then its down. The other way it is defined is like you describe abowe, if CoM rices or drops in ref to the snow you ski on. IMO its better to couple unweighing to movements done by the skier since in todays skiing you dont need any unweighting to turn but your CoM will be going up and down anyway. Makes no sence to me.
post #28 of 29
I've decided I like tdk6's definition more than LeMaster's. 

regarding LeMaster: What's the point of having a "down un-weighting" that is almost impossible to do and almost never happens? You end up with two situations (legs extending, legs contracting) with the same name, i.e. up un-weighting. If you use the term in this way you'll have a loss of information unless you specify which kind of up un-weighting you're talking about.

Thanks for making me think about this.

Bumps and powder require down un-weighting, but not retraction.
post #29 of 29
Why don't we just rid our selves of the term "un-weighting" and call it like it is... "flexing" or "extending"?
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