New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ankle Tipping - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Mojoman,

Quote:
 
The sequence usually progresses like this.

-- I start to flatten skis smoothly
-- Once flat, I slowly tip the new inside ski to little-toe edge
-- Ski either twists or slides sideways down fall line.
-- I catch little-toe edge
-- High-side fall.
-- I go back to skiing using the use of angulation to tip and turn.
 

 

You are doing this on a relatively flat hill and therefore going pretty slow you said. I too find it very hard to tip the soon to be inside ski onto it’s outside edge at turn beginning if I am making slow relaxed basic parallel turns. This is because I am standing directly over my skis. I don’t have to “lean”/incline my body to resist centrifugal forces. What tends to happen is exactly what you said, the inside ski twists outward (and therefore into the turn) but not enough to get it onto it’s outside edge. That’s great! That is exactly what I would want to have happen. It’s called inside leg steering and it tends to pull you right into the turn with almost no effort. At these speeds it is minimal tipping and more twisting. If you tip too much ….. well you already know what happens. And BTW, if you twist too much too fast, guess what….well never mind, just don’t do it.
I put this active inside leg into all my skiing. The slower you go and/or the more skidded the turns, the more this will be a twisting of the inside ankle versus a tipping.
 
The corollary is the more carved and/or faster the turns, the more it will be tipping than twisting.
 
Now, lets ramp it up a bit. Railroad track turns on very very gentle slopes (this means a slope you feel utterly comfortable going straight down with your eyes closed). No skidding please! So I start off in a pretty steep traverse to the right on the edges of both skis. Now I slowly, ever so slowly, begin to tip the inside ski using my ankle (left one) from its inside edge to its outside one. Easy now, real slow, be patient and it turns. Remember, no skidding! Long before I want to turn back the other way, I need to start the right ankle tipping the other way. 
In effect, I am angulating at the ankles.

Now as I bump up the speed I find that I now need more angulation to offset the increasing centrifugal forces I develop. So the knees get into the angulation action. Bump up more and then the hips have to get into it.
 
But in all cases, it all started in the ankles!

 


Edited by Snowhawk - 12/19/09 at 4:47pm
post #32 of 50
Thanks snow..

For me, the movements of ankle, knees, and hips have always felt simultaneous. I pretty much was self-taught and never took instruction real serious until the past few seasons when I felt I got stuck in this terminal phase where I just can't get moguls dialed in like I would want to. I have been taking private lessons here and there the past few seasons and really have got a lot of feedback about things I am doing that could be done better. One of the main complaints handed out by instructors is that sometimes I don't finish turns and rush initiation on steeps and I use too much angulation when I don't need it. I 'raised' myself as a skier on angulation as it felt natural. Through trial and error I figured out that raising the left and right hip is very effective for me in getting the skis on edge. The knees and ankles seem to angulate at the same time, as opposed to doing something with ankle tipping that then leads to any angulation needed.

I definately will try to get some video of me skiing this year to post in a thread for some hardcore Movement Analysis. Give people here something to dissect. I am probably a good case study.   Instructor's assesment is I am pretty much, "Solid level 7. Not a bad skier, there are just things I can do better. I need to be more dynamic and pro-active and get away from the tendency to park and ride."

Thanks for the info. The threads here in the technique forum are interesting. 
post #33 of 50
OOPS  Sorry Mojoman the above post is off target.  If you were doing White-Pass turns then that is a whole different ball game.  White-Pass turns are an exersize ONLY.  For balance maybe or commitment to the insdie or some skill development ....   They are definately NOT a technique for normal skiing!  Yeah they are hard and really really hard going slow!  But putting major weight on the inside ski - for me means the outside takes off somewhere and I'm into some flailing recovery technique!

Cheers!
post #34 of 50
 ankle tipping awareness, stand in your bare or socked feet hip width apart bent knees but otherwise standing straight up and down, look down at an ankle....roll...it...in... nothing else should move, depending on your foot your arch may collapse a bit (none or totally).... don't move anything else just roll the ankle.... left foot right foot left foot  right foot  and so on only rolling to the inside of each foot. < depending on the structure of your foot a good bootfitter should make you an insole that allows "some" movement but thats a whole other story> now on the hill, moderate groomed slope making medium gs turns... once you are into the turn with pressure on the inside edge of the downhill ski... roll your ankle and nothing else like you did at home... if your knee or hips angulate go back home for more dryland practice... again in the turn on slope... roll your ankle.... if done properly your body position will not change but YOU will feel the ski bite harder and turn tighter...   you can also do the dryland in your boots and should feel your arch/ankle pushing on the inside of the boot... if you feel your leg pushing the boot top just remember only the ankle. After a while the rotation of the ankle will become an integral part of a smooth effortless turn. Also at some point you can work on rolling towards the outside which would be the uphill edge of the inside ski.
post #35 of 50
The thing about White Pass turns is that if you know how to do the movements you should be doing, the drill gives you great feedback if you're doing them or not. If you're doing the movements, the drill is easy. If you're not doing the movements, the drill feels awkward. If you don't know how to do the movements, the drill is very uncomfortable and pretty much useless. Those in the last category need to use other drills to learn the movements. (e.g. side slips to do ankle tipping) and then put them back together in White Pass turns.

"Park and Ride" and "not finishing your turns" could be the same observation, If one doesn't keep the various body parts moving through the finishing phase of a turn, one won't build up upper/lower body separation and the next turn will need to be forced instead of getting assisted by momentum. For example, if the skis are already going flat through the end of the turn, the momentum of that movement will help them to go onto their new edge. If the skis are increasing edge angle through the finish of the turn, it's much harder to get them to reverse direction and get onto the new edge quickly. To avoid Park and Ride and "finish" turns, one needs to be smoothly and continuously adjusting edge angle and rotational separation of the upper and lower body through the finish of the turn so that max edge angle is achieved near the fall line and max separation is achieved near "across the fal line". Park and Ride skiers don't build separation through the end of the turn. This makes it harder to get on the new edges early. That delay usually causes the max edge angle to occur well after the fall line. At that point it's much easier to stay with the skis instead of letting separation build. Which brings us back to where we started.
post #36 of 50
Rusty - guess I got to keep working on the movements cause White Pass still feels really awquard. With some practice, maybe I can more up to just awkward.

Really nice write up of park n ride and not finishing.
Gonna file that one away!
post #37 of 50
Hawk,

Don't feel bad. It took me years to get the WP turn down. When you do get it, you'll hear Homer (D'oh!). What helped me break through was 99-1 skiing (1 foot skiing with the other ski just barely touching the ground). One of the tricks for good WP turns is that the lifted leg still needs to be flexing/extending. As stupid as this drill is, it helped my skiing a lot.
post #38 of 50
To do a White Pass transition just add a touch of knee angulation (extra edge angle) at the end of the turn, without moving your CM laterally.  The ski will cut under your body as you become momentarily out of balance and tip into the new turn.  Very simple, very easy.  
post #39 of 50
I modified my boots a bit and this has helped my fore/aft issues tremendously.

I have been skiing in the raptor 120 on the soft flex. I love the boots but they have been pinching my calves something fierce. I have pretty large calves and even when lightly buckled, my calves mash the back of the cuff when extending the leg. I did some surgery on the liners--opened up the top with some scissors and slowly took out small layers of foam material from the upper section supporting the calves until I stopped getting pinched when standing and extending in the boots. Sewed the opening back up and they are as good as new, but with a better fit.

This really has helped me with some fore-aft balance issues I have been having. Skiing yesterday, transitions were easier and edging was easier as well. With the tight fit on the calves, the tails tended to catch a bit on the snow when transitioning. It also wasn't easy to roll the ankles with the calves being so restricted against the cuff.  



 
post #40 of 50
For me, trying to successfully complete the White Pass drill was extremely challenging. It is a very counter-intuitive and unnatural feel to have your weight supported on the outside edge of one foot, even when you are simply standing in street shoes, even more so when on one ski and moving accross a slippery surface. Akward is the best word I would use to describe it.
post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

To do a White Pass transition just add a touch of knee angulation (extra edge angle) at the end of the turn, without moving your CM laterally.  The ski will cut under your body as you become momentarily out of balance and tip into the new turn.  Very simple, very easy.  




Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

Hawk,

Don't feel bad. It took me years to get the WP turn down. When you do get it, you'll hear Homer (D'oh!). What helped me break through was 99-1 skiing (1 foot skiing with the other ski just barely touching the ground). One of the tricks for good WP turns is that the lifted leg still needs to be flexing/extending. As stupid as this drill is, it helped my skiing a lot.

Thanks guys, I'll try those.  rusty - the 99-1 and moving the lifted foot is what I have been using to get my one legged skiing down better.  Just hadn't tried it on the WP turns.  Shows you what focussing on a drill does to me.
Rick, suspect your suggestion will help both WP and one legged. so I'll give it a try.  I hate one legged skiing but I guess I'll just have to get out there and do some.  Now if I can just get a hydraulic hinge to keep my ankles flexed.....
Yeah, it is with great reluctance that I admit these kinds of drills have improved my skiing but....aqward!
post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post








Rick, suspect your suggestion will help both WP and one legged. so I'll give it a try.  

Yep, absolutely.  It's a key to the one foot skiing transition.  Works whether an inside or outside foot transition.  
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

rusty - the 99-1 and moving the lifted foot is what I have been using to get my one legged skiing down better.  Just hadn't tried it on the WP turns. 
99-1 is just like a White Pass turn, but only every other turn. It also takes the cornfusing lifting the foot off the snow thing out of the picture. So do the 99-1 and then tell yourself that's what a WP turn is supposed to be. Then it will be easier to do WP.
post #44 of 50
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the replys and tips. Hopefully it will help.
post #45 of 50
Tried the WP turn today and just couldn't get it but Rusty, did not try your tracer turn(1-99) to it.  Suspect your right, the lifting a foot and switching it just threw me off in the WP.  Felt like I was doing one turn at a time with no flow.  Am I correct in that in the WP you switch feet at transition to the new inside ski going into the turn?  Or do you switch at the fall line?
Did the one footed for the first time this year and that worked and am trying to work in the knee angulation to make it work better Rick. Gotta work on it more cause I can't carve them yet nor vary their size very well.  I think the one leg stuff was easier because there is flow of turns.

Thanks guys!  Have a great holiday!
post #46 of 50
In the WP turn, you can switch feet above, at or after the fall line. The only criteria is that the edge change happens on the new inside ski (i.e. the downhill ski). I found it easiest to switch after the fall line, but eventually made the best turns changing at the fall line
post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

Tried the WP turn today and just couldn't get it but Rusty, did not try your tracer turn(1-99) to it.  Suspect your right, the lifting a foot and switching it just threw me off in the WP.  Felt like I was doing one turn at a time with no flow.  Am I correct in that in the WP you switch feet at transition to the new inside ski going into the turn?  Or do you switch at the fall line?
Did the one footed for the first time this year and that worked and am trying to work in the knee angulation to make it work better Rick. Gotta work on it more cause I can't carve them yet nor vary their size very well.  I think the one leg stuff was easier because there is flow of turns.

Thanks guys!  Have a great holiday!

Don't think of it as lifting and don't think of it as dropping the foot back to the snow. Think of the ski coming off of the snow as a result of the timing of your flexion/extension.  Feel the ski meet the ground again as a result of flexing the new inside leg as the turn develops. See how subtly you can place the ski back on the snow and let the pressure build in that foot until you are 99% on the outside ski. I think the ski should return to the snow before the fallline and if it doesn't, you are probably reinforcing things that you don't want in your basic skiing.
post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




Don't think of it as lifting and don't think of it as dropping the foot back to the snow. Think of the ski coming off of the snow as a result of the timing of your flexion/extension.  Feel the ski meet the ground again as a result of flexing the new inside leg as the turn develops. See how subtly you can place the ski back on the snow and let the pressure build in that foot until you are 99% on the outside ski. I think the ski should return to the snow before the fallline and if it doesn't, you are probably reinforcing things that you don't want in your basic skiing.


Wow!  This is a whole new way for me to think of these!
 

Help me walk through this.
 

Lets go apex to apex (fall line to fall line) starting in a right hand turn.
 

Normally
Pressure is on the inside edge of the outside ski.  Left leg is "max" extended and right is "max" flexed.
Without getting into OLE and ILR (unless of course it makes a difference in these turns),
I begin to flex the left outside leg and extend the right inside leg. 
Pressure has begun to move from the outside left ski inside edge to the inside right ski outside edge.
Both legs are evenly flexed at neutral with equal pressure on them. 
I continue to flex the new inside left until the fall line and to extend the new outside right leg
 and let the pressure build up on it's inside edge.
Throughout, I am thinking of tipping/twisting the inside ankle into the turn.
 

OK, now the White Pass ala EPIC's post.
Pressure is on the inside edge of the outside ski.  Left leg is "max" extended and right is "max" flexed.
Without getting into OLE and ILR (unless of course it makes a difference in these turns),
I begin to flex the left outside leg and delay the extending the right inside leg so that it comes off the snow. 
Pressure moves across the bottom of the left ski inside edge to it's outside edge.
At neutral left leg is slightly more extended that the right to keep the right off the snow. 
I continue to flex the new inside left until the fall line and to extend the new outside right leg
 until it touches the snow and let the pressure build up on it's inside edge.
Throughout, I am thinking of tipping/twisting the inside ankle into the turn.
 

So normally, I would begin to extend my inside leg in bottom of turn. 
In WP, I would delay that extension until the top of the next turn?
It feels like the outside soon to be inside leg doesn't change it's flex/extend timing, just it's pressure timing.
The pressure is reduced in the second half of the turn instead of the first half.

Is this about right?
Took me awhile to think through it to write it, so I can't imagine how much effort it will take to think through it to do it on the slopes.  So maybe the focus might be tipping the inside ski into the turn while progessively flexing with full weight on it until the outside ski touches at about the fall line?
I'll certainly be trying this in the tracer mode for awhile!
 

post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

OK, now the White Pass ala EPIC's post.

Pressure is on the inside edge of the outside ski.  Left leg is "max" extended and right is "max" flexed.
Without getting into OLE and ILR (unless of course it makes a difference in these turns),
I begin to flex the left outside leg and delay the extending the right inside leg so that it comes off the snow. 
Pressure moves across the bottom of the left ski inside edge to it's outside edge.
At neutral left leg is slightly more extended that the right to keep the right off the snow. 
I continue to flex the new inside left until the fall line and to extend the new outside right leg
 until it touches the snow and let the pressure build up on it's inside edge.
Throughout, I am thinking of tipping/twisting the inside ankle into the turn.
 

So normally, I would begin to extend my inside leg in bottom of turn. 
In WP, I would delay that extension until the top of the next turn?
It feels like the outside soon to be inside leg doesn't change it's flex/extend timing, just it's pressure timing.
The pressure is reduced in the second half of the turn instead of the first half.

Is this about right?
Took me awhile to think through it to write it, so I can't imagine how much effort it will take to think through it to do it on the slopes.  So maybe the focus might be tipping the inside ski into the turn while progessively flexing with full weight on it until the outside ski touches at about the fall line?
I'll certainly be trying this in the tracer mode for awhile!
 


That's pretty much it. My advise, go ski it, IMHO it'll be easier if you think of being taller at the transition see if you can delay the flexing of the new inside leg. Do be flexing taht inside ankle though - think inside leg pullback if that works for you. Also, you said "I am thinking of tipping/twisting the inside ankle" - stick with just tipping.

Go ski it.
post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

I begin to flex the left outside leg and delay the extending the right inside leg so that it comes off the snow. 



You've got it about right, but make sure the edge change happens with old inside leg (what you call the right inside leg above) off the snow before the start of the edge change. Trying in tracer mode first is ok.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching