teaching young kids to ski

My son was taught the "pizza" his first season. He "lost" it well before the end of the second season. He was 7 1/2 years old at the start. Before he was 11, he made the state championships.

OK, I must have been wrong by allowing that instructor to teach the wedge ..... now what can I do to go back and start over?

How can I "correct" this kid who is now faster and "better" than 97% of our instructors?

The bottom line is that if you need a basic tool that gets a kid slipping along happy as a clam ....... and the kid begs you to take him back for more and more ..... translation .... the kid is building many miles on the snow ....... the gliding wedge/pizza etc., will work fine.

OK, drag the kid between two adults or truss him up in some wacky device! Do it your way.

You are right on the "BS" numbers in the case you cite. Some key questions ..... Did you call and book for a "quiet" period? Many schools have the kid program and it's instructors booked far in advance. Often, you can get a private with a good instructor before the kids program starts if you can be ready by eight. I will confess to taking a few days .... well, despite his mothers objections, I took him out of school and we played hookey together .. : .. and his lessons came during low pressure periods. With the weekend crowds, lines and confusion very little gets taught even with the best instructors.

"I gotta go to the bathroom" ...... another issue .... :

My son was no prodigy. He got a single lesson and then spent a lot of time tagging along. In essence, they will follow and imitate every single thing you do. I remember riding up the lift; I tapped my skis to get rid of some snow ..... a moment later he did the same. Little pup peeing on the same fire plug as the old dog. His second lesson came when he was well matched. It was on the use of poles and timing.

Then he started hanging with some of the older kids on the race team. They were great with him, he was like a mascot. Now I can't keep up.

The key here is the "miles on snow", AND who you follow. You are the best example a kid has.

We see all types, some parents have an agenda that is insane. This weeks was "I have to learn to ski here so we can go to Aspen and Jackson Hole on vacation this year"! This seven year old had never done a thing except eat and jockey a (computer) mouse. She had NO strength and was a bit overweight, nothing worked with her but I bet her parents dragged her off to another hill this week for a private ...... hoping beyond hope, so they could be off to fulfill their dreams.

Pay a bit of attention to the equipment. My son started on a pair of Rossi Vipers .... lots of shape and I think that helped a lot.

Each child is different and will respond (or not), go lightly and with fun in mind and you will have a ski buddy for life. Don't enter with high hopes ..... things may not work out the first time. Heck, play hookey during the week and make it a "special thing" ....

I know that both resorts I ski at make a BIG effort to maintain the same instructor each day - or if a child needs to change groups to introduce them to the next days instructor before hand...

I find it very strange that a ski school would change instructors for a childs group every day - even more so for a private...

Even with me they go to quite an effort to give me consistency in instruction... At the resort I ski 30 days straight(& so have 30 lessons in a row) they tell me to have 2 instructors - but make every effort to alternate weeks for me rather than a day here or there...

My other resort strove to give me the instructor that could teach the MOST days I would need in a season - they had a choice of 2 from my previous instructor when he went to head the race dept. I have a 'back up' that teaches when he is off taking courses or exams. Again - always the same person who know me well.

Alex: You will probably find an instructor that "clicks" with your children and when you do stick with him/her. We are all different and some just work better with kids. I usually turn down even private lessons if the younger instructors are available since some of them have "the magic". I like to work with the 10 year olds but the little ones scare me.

Tom/PM: You are right on the numbers. I have constantly have kept him at arms length and explain why he should NOT do some things like dad. We do very little free skiing together (since his first year). His time in the race development program and later on the team took up a full eight hours and that was not by accident. Since I have some old school stuff that I didn't want him to pick up I kept a wide berth. He now coaches me on getting low and "getting angles" ..... and is sad/disappointed that these 55 year old hips win't allow it.

I'm afraid I don't understand why you guys are so opposed to teaching your children the wedge. I really don't see it as the dead end that you guys do. I've been teaching it all season, and have had the pleasure of seeing my kids progress beyond it.

Let me give just one example. On Sunday, I had a 3 hour lesson in the rain with a 7 y.o. boy who had never skiied in his life. During that lesson we went from straight runs on the magic carpet (french fries) to a braking wedge on the magic carpet. When he coulkd stop, we went to the tow lift where we did gliding wedge j-turns to stop knowing that he could also stop in a wedge. Then up the double lift. We got about 4 runs in before that lesson ended. He made it down the "headwall" without falling and was using turn shape to control his speed. To my suprise, he was in my level 3 all day class on Monday. We did some warm up runs on our easiest lift served terrain, then moved to some easy blues which we wedged down, again practicing using turn shape to control our speed.Before lunch time I had him and 4 others back on the easy trail tipping their skis to turn and doing their best imitation of a patience turn. After lunch we went back to the blue trail and were skiing it mostly parallel and under control. We also practiced side-slips and worked on hockey stops. They will all be level 4 today despite being taught in a wedge.

I think you need to realize that at some ski areas the terrain does not allow teaching direct to parrallel and also that wedge is not a dead-end. Most of us were taught in a wedge, and I don't think we all revert to it when the going gets tough, do we?

As for the really young kids, I'm not so sure that parallel on steeper terrain is possible for them. See thread on alignment and stance for that.

Here are some ideas which I'm sure there are many who will say I'm full of it. [img]smile.gif[/img] So here goes:

Never ski with the kid between your legs. it doesn't work. The kid is just along for the ride... Daddy does all the work, all the time. I am sure we all have seen this. skiing aids are nice but in most cases may be unnecessary. Skiing along side does not work.

Want to build a stronger house? Build a better base. Basically the center line idea. What if the student exhibits a marked progress? Go with it. Don't hold him back.

This is what we did this year. We set up stations A, B, & C. At station A we taught getting in and out of the ski, side step up and down, and 'duck walk' over to the tow. Station B there is an instructor at the top, waiting. Here they learn the wedge. We take their tips in our hand, bending over and skiing backwards. [Some here at Epic really screamed about this. My response was - it worked; incredible, fast success on the part of the student - skiing by himself by the 3rd trip down the hill but most of the time by the 1st or 2nd time.] No complaints from students, parents, staff, or management.

Then they practice on their own for awhile- discovery period. They can go in and get warm, eat, come back out and join up with us again... all day. We watch, giving tips now and then, not trying to correct everything. Show, don't tell. Use few words.

We watch for stability and balance. When we see the student naturally trying and succeding in turning toward the tow we take them to staion C where they learn to turn.

I've omitted many details in interest of brevity, here. There were varying degrees of progress attributed to atheltic ability, age, maturity but all and I mean all students learned to ski! Most of these never saw skis before in their lives. Some had never seen snow!

We've had as many as 16 students in one day learn to ski before 2:30 PM rolled around. We close at 6. No complaints from anyone. All smiles, one parent thought I was God! [img]smile.gif[/img] of course I quickly praised her son for his atheletic ability and quick learning.

Such a high level of success, no complaints about stress on certain muscles or bones. No owies. No one gave up. Customer service and satisfaction at its highest. My true paycheck was seeing their success. Downside? Not much chance for tips because at least 3 or 4 of us are always involved with the class. Awwwww! Too bad! Tips would be nice, but as I said, their success is the real paycheck! Bob

Too bad about the tips...one of the downsides of station teaching. Depending on the age a good instructor can clear the yard in an hour and a half....no edgy wedgies, hoops, smoke or mirrors.
Don't teach wedges, christies, hockey stops or parallel...teach skills...teach skiing. Why do we insist on getting in the way with kids! Time they taught us something.

Smiling and sliding! I don't mean to be flipant, but all groups have varying motivations and issues. Once a group of children find the unifying motivation (fun) through an instructor who actually will get down and go eyeball to eyeball with them and truly HONORS them as children (don't get all bollocked up with too much CAP model, multiple intellegencies and background noise) they will follow you anywhere. Condescend to them in a big bear suit with lot's of colorful distractions and adult-made nonsense and you go to the bathroom and for hot chocolate....a lot! Kids today are over stimulated and under-imaginationed....have fun, be creative....and watch them all ski! Six out of a group of eight will learn by default, from mimicking and appropriate skill transfer...maybe from roller blading etc. They would do this whether you were there or not! The instructors job is quickly getting the other two up to speed....Adults should be so easy!

I have to agree with epic on this one. I don't understand the big deal at all. Would you rather have your kid "ski" parallel with a leash or a pole or by themselves with a wedge? I think the joy in controlling one's own speed far outweighs the "downside" which I'm not sure what it is.

I also agree with Robin- let them have some fun. Obsessing on how a child is skiing at 3 1/2 years old is ridiculous. Just let them slide on snow for a while. If you're trying to train the next killy or maier or miller forcing them to do things a certain way probably won't work. If a child doesn't enjoy it, they're not going to want to do it. If they don't ski they won't get any better.

I've rarely seen anyone ski with a wedge for five years unless they hardly ski at all each year.

Yuki:> "... He got a single lesson and then spent a lot of time tagging along. In essence, they will follow and imitate every single thing you do. I remember riding up the lift; I tapped my skis to get rid of some snow ..... a moment later he did the same ... The key here is the "miles on snow", AND who you follow. You are the best example a kid has...".

Your comments could not be more precisely on the mark. I have had exactly the same type of experiences with my daughter (now 10 y.o.). My daughter even vents the steam from her goggles the same way as I do, shakes her skis after clicking in (to make sure they are on securely), etc.

I would only add one thing to your comments: You can also be the worst example your kid has.

Last weekend, my daughter and I were at our local hill waiting for the big mid-Atlantic dump to hit, when out of the blue, she announces that she wants to take a lesson. This is pretty unusual for her, since she has probably averaged only about one pro lesson a year since she started at age 3. I sign her up, and after some discussion and a mini-ski-off (which she didn't like having to do), she gets placed in a level 7-8 class with adults (the highest they had going). She absolutely *hates* being the only kid in a class of adults, so I objected and she wound up with a private.

A half-hour later, from the lift, I spot her and her instructor on lumpy snow on the steepest trail on the mtn doing exercises. I don't usually get to see her from such a distance in somewhat difficult conditions, so I find myself being more clinical than usual.

In her skiing, I recognize some of my good points, but much to my chagrin, clear as day, I can also see every one of my weaknesses. This hits me like a brick.

Kids are the ultimate immitators and completely pattern themselves after the people they ski with, so do your kid a favor, and make sure they have good skiing role models from day one.

Tom / PM

Can I ask why you took 3 different instrcutors for 3 privates in a row???

I had a great 3 year old program that had great results once. "Reasonable Expectations" (actually a chart, by number of days and age) were delineated for all kids.....Unfortunately, the program was too successful and became huge and labour intensive (30-40 3 year olds a day)!
We started a hybrid program, cut off at twelve 3 year olds. It was an all day, which included one group formatted lesson and a lift serviced private during the course of the day. It also had a side benefit. Parents would come in and say, "I want to enroll my 3 year old", we would either say, "great" or "I am sorry we are full" to which they would inevitably say, "then can I put him in the 4 year old program"? "I'M SORRY, BUT HE IS 3"!!
The reason many resorts don't have a 3 year old program, is that they are all ready getting 3 year olds enrolled! If they had a 3 year old program, parents would dump their 2 year olds.....same with snowboarding.
I have a sign posted, "Parents, you do yourself, your child, other parents, other children and their coaches a disservice by misrepresenting your child's age or ability. We are a skill based, not terrain based school and will not necessarily take your child on the slopes you feel "challenging", but will return them with enhanced skills. If your child has been "skiing" with you on a tether or tip clamp please inform the supervisor."
Cheeky, but effective.

Umm ski schools here take them from 3 - as long as they are toilet trained...

God bless you!

If it is so unnatural why do they take to it so well? Why do they revert back to it on harder terrain when they can ski parallel on easy terrain? Could it be that at their age it is more natural to ski in a wedge? I think if parallel were so natural, I'd have no problem breaking my Saturday Sunday of their wedge down the hill until you are sitting on the snow technique. I think most 4 and 5 y.o.s are not developed enough to use turn shape to control speed. When I look at my group of 4, 4 1/2, 5 and 5 1/2 year olds there is a nearly direct correlation between their age and their ability to do that.

typing from memory - I know 1 ski school I ski at takes 3 year olds in their groups - it is part of how they form the groups(I have worked there as a kiddy dresser/feeder [img]redface.gif[/img] )
Am pretty sure the other one does....
As 2 of the 3 remaining are in competition with those 2 for skiers I assume they take them too (Ant will know for 1) & the 3rd is run by the same bunch as my second ski school so should take them too...

These are KID lessons - designed for 3 year olds - as is the teaching environment...

Like Robin says we would always get some who would say they were 3 while holding up 2 fingers ...Some parents don't teach their kids to fib very well

If the kid can turn and stop with fries, I can't imagine why you would insist on the pizza.

Our feet, kid's feet point straight forward. Our brains say we want to go this way, so our feet point in that direction. in general this is a basic skill kids come to the hill with. Teach them to side step uphill and what genrally happens? They start pointing their toes uphill... a natural reaction, bless their little hearts.

Why do they naturally go straight downhill with skis parallel? Because of the above. They don't know how to turn. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good. Sometimes this is so, sometimes not. When a student losses balance he naturally bends over at the waist and the butt goes backwards. This is a natural reaction. is it good? One should be eclectic in their choice of natural moves. Some are wanted and necessary. Some are not.

Teaching skills? This is what we are doing when we teach the wedge or christie or parallel. I also teach the side slip. wow! This is not a natural move! Maybe I shouldn't teach it. However, when I take my 'ready' students up on the 'big people' hill [img]smile.gif[/img] and I remind them that we learned the side slip, they are so thankfull for learning it! I tell them I will think no less of them if they wish to side slip the first part of the hill until they get down to the easier part, then start practicing their turns. Some do, most don't. I don't push them. It's their dime, their time.

If you (whoever) wish to start with parrallel first, more power to ya. If it works for you and your students, kudos!

I think it's mostly older kids who are of the roller blader persuasion that will insist on the french fries ...... er freedom fries mode.

If it works for them I pretty much let it go, but many are putting all kinds of wierd shoulder and arm twisting to make it work. On that gentle begginner hill they get away with quite a bit however a bit of speed and they crash and burn. They try to articulate one ankle/edge at a severe angle.

I'd say as long as they're eating they'll be o.k..

Seriously though, if they're frying it up just fine it makes no sense to "force" them to do pizza.

Still, this thread may force me to find my post "The Wedge: Root of All Evil"