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"Level Up" Nail's $.o2 SVMM vs. WC Mogul Tech

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
It's time for mogul skiers to "level up" from the typical  "ground & pound" down the rut line exhibited by WC mogul skiers. 

For any skiers looking to improve their mogul skiing or all mountain skiing experience, I suggest looking into the SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) which uses quick technical carved turns to control speed by skiing over the "tops" and backsides of the moguls as opposed to slamming/skidding  down the scraped rut line as almost all skiers do today.

Why is it that when good skiers leave the groomed runs and drop down a mogul field, they stop making carved turns and resort to deflecting and pounding compression to control their speed and allow the terrain to dictate the line they ski?  This makes no sense and results in a physical beating.  Why do skiers look down a scraped rut line and choose to ski it when the top of the mogul right next to it is usually covered with soft snow that is begging to be turned on?

By linking quick carved turns (QCT), a skier can navigate any terrain with control and confidence.  SVMM does not require the skier to learn a new technique to comfortably ski moguls, it "levels up" the basic carved turn technique that is taught worldwide by professional instructors.

Leave the rut behind and start turning on the tops of the moguls for a better, more confident skiing experience.

Here's a link that to a thread I started that reviews the comparison of SVMM and WC tech in more detail.

http://www.weekendwarriorsguide.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=216&p=489#p489

Mogul skiing is "stuck in a rut", it's time to "level up".
post #2 of 20
Thread Starter 
Nolo, I got your PM.
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Test, 3rd post to allow PM privs.
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Since there are no comments to my statement, I guess we're all in agreement that it is time to "level up" the conventional mogul skiing technique.  Since the ability to make QCT's on groomed runs is the foundation of SVMM, I've got a simple challenge for skiers, which is great practice btw, looking to improve their black diamond technique.  In the video below, I was able to make 36 Quick Carved Turns (QCT's) in 23 seconds on an intermediate groomed run called Squirrel at Sun Valley.  Try to beat my mark if you can and post the video, we'll critique the techniques used.  Remember, these are "carved turns", not "wiggles".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPUnIIiy0M8
post #5 of 20
 first SVMM fits into to WC tech so I dont know what the debate is here?

second is best to learn all ways to do anything. Including skiing bumps.
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
Woot!  Shane Cordeau takes 1st in yesterday's US Mogul Selections at Winter Park with a HUGE score of 25.08.

http://urtur.com/

Shane uses SVMM technique down the rut line, how long is it going to take the rest of the field to "level up" and start controlling their speed with carved turns as opposed to the "ground & pound" of MST into the sides of the moguls.
post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
BushwakerinPA wrote:

 first SVMM fits into to WC tech so I dont know what the debate is here?

The only similarities SVMM and WC tech have are they both go downhill with ski's.  Your comment is TOTALLY hollow and unsubstantiated.  Exactly "how" does SVMM fit into the WC tech?  WC tech cannot be used to ski over the tops of the moguls as the skier must control their speed with technical carved turns, there is nothing to deflect and slam off of.  SVMM can be used to ski over the tops or down the rut line.  They are 2 completely different techniques, with SVMM being the far more technical, efficient, and versatile. Can you ski over the tops and carry speed? WC tech is a "stand alone" scheme used by intermediate skiers to navigate the rut line. 

Compare Pat Deneen and Shane Cordeau.  It is obvious Shane is carving round turns, while Pat is pivoting his tails back and forth and slamming the side of the mogul, his tips never seem to cross the fall line and go straight down.  This is not a carved turn. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKGtrKxTnCE

nuff said.
Edited by Nailbender - 12/17/09 at 5:38pm
post #8 of 20
Missed this thread. Yes, SVMM rules in the bumps. In a few years time you will all be skiing over the tops . Same revolution ahead of us as with carving skis. Just dont use the word carving , dont take away the only thing we have left to call our own....
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

It's time for mogul skiers to "level up" from the typical  "ground & pound" down the rut line exhibited by WC mogul skiers. 

And about time too!

For any skiers looking to improve their mogul skiing or all mountain skiing experience, I suggest looking into the SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) which uses quick technical carved turns to control speed by skiing over the "tops" and backsides of the moguls as opposed to slamming/skidding  down the scraped rut line as almost all skiers do today.

Why is it that when good skiers leave the groomed runs and drop down a mogul field, they stop making carved turns and resort to deflecting and pounding compression to control their speed and allow the terrain to dictate the line they ski?  This makes no sense and results in a physical beating.  Why do skiers look down a scraped rut line and choose to ski it when the top of the mogul right next to it is usually covered with soft snow that is begging to be turned on?

Because they turn by pivoting, not carving, and they can't pivot their skis as easily when they are not on top of hard-packed snow or ice.


By linking quick carved turns (QCT), a skier can navigate any terrain with control and confidence.  SVMM does not require the skier to learn a new technique to comfortably ski moguls, it "levels up" the basic carved turn technique that is taught worldwide by professional instructors.

Leave the rut behind and start turning on the tops of the moguls for a better, more confident skiing experience.

Here's a link that to a thread I started that reviews the comparison of SVMM and WC tech in more detail.

http://www.weekendwarriorsguide.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=216&p=489#p489

Mogul skiing is "stuck in a rut", it's time to "level up".
 
I agree! carving is the way to go in bumps, carving as opposed to pivoting, but not necessarily edge-locked carving, that is.   Then again, I suck at bumps, so who's going to listen to me.
post #10 of 20
 When the ruts get deep enough, going perpendicular is not really an option, since you will jam your tips into the far side of the rut.
Admittedly, that is not too common, but I can think of a few places where that happens routinely. Even for rounder bumps, if you do it wrong you will jam your tips, lose your ski, and take a header.  Doing it wrong on the rut line may be ugly, but won't usually make you fall.
post #11 of 20
Sometimes avoiding the top of the mogul is done because the way down is six feet of 90 degree vertical ice and ends in a narrow rut that has zero slope.
post #12 of 20
You can't teach an old dog new tricks and in this case the old dog is fine skiing bumps the way I do now. Why would I want to change?

It's not that I don't understand your method because I respect it, I just don't see the need to change a method that has worked for me over the years and even at my  age, 59, I don't beat myself up skiing moguls.

And is Shane Cordeau the Son of Joey Cordeau? Joey used to ski the pro circuit long ago and we all used to hang around the mogul hills back in the day. Joey was really good.
post #13 of 20
PLEASE... NO More acronyms in ski instruction! svmm and qct???  Makes me want to drive my LTE where the sun don't shine (or 'SDS' for all you ski camp shills)!
post #14 of 20
Nail I've seen your clip and you  are able to ski a nice easy blue run and put in a number of turns in a short period of time. I really do not know if i can replicate this or better it but i can ski close to that number of turns on a blue run. Unfortunately i do not have a clip of myself doing this but i have no reason to lie about it. The guy who taught me how to move from an intermediate to the skier i am today used a drill similar to the one you demonstrate in your clip. He basically would tell me to put in at least 50 turns before the we get to a specific land mark on the hill. The challenge helped me push my limits and improve dramatically. I like the the drill in your clip and think it is useful and enjoyable.

My point is linking turns that quickly on a blue is really not that difficult (in my opinion). Linking similar turns on a mogul field or on an extremely steep pitch would be a challenge I would have a tough time with.

My question to you is can you link turns this quickly on a mogul field or an extreme pitch and if so do you have a clip of you doing this.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

 When the ruts get deep enough, going perpendicular is not really an option, since you will jam your tips into the far side of the rut.
 

True!
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Sometimes avoiding the top of the mogul is done because the way down is six feet of 90 degree vertical ice and ends in a narrow rut that has zero slope.
 

Yes!
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
MDF wrote:

When the ruts get deep enough, going perpendicular is not really an option, since you will jam your tips into the far side of the rut.
Admittedly, that is not too common, but I can think of a few places where that happens routinely. Even for rounder bumps, if you do it wrong you will jam your tips, lose your ski, and take a header.  Doing it wrong on the rut line may be ugly, but won't usually make you fall.

I agree, the rut is the lowest line to the ground and probably the safest and that's why most skiers take it, but it comes at the price of a steady pounding.  I will also agree that when skiing bumps, no matter how you do it, you are going to hit a few ruts now and then.
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
ADayToRemember wrote:

I like the the drill in your clip and think it is useful and enjoyable.

I agree, I think it is a very underutilized and under rated drill and it's a great warm up that really gets both balance focus and body movements working.

Quote:
ADayToRemember wrote:

My question to you is can you link turns this quickly on a mogul field or an extreme pitch and if so do you have a clip of you doing this.

I don't have any good video.  I've got this shot from early in the season with sketchy snow, lot's of shale and hollow dry snowpack.  I stuffed my tips twice into the small bumps and it made me nervous.

I can still and do make turns this quick in moguls over the tops and they are often a lot quicker.  It's usually easier to do in terrain as  gravity and slope angle enter the equation and I use it  to my advantage.


Here's a good look at how SVMM is done and what it looks like when done really well, between 10-30 sec. mark.  I posted this clip in the QCT thread.

post #19 of 20
Thanks for posting the SVMM material.

Any video of skiing icy moguls?  Usually by the time the moguls are worth mentioning here, they are well pollished hardpack on the uphill side and very well polished ice on the down hill side.
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Ghost wrote:

Any video of skiing icy moguls?

I don't have any video of firm/icy SVMM mogul skiing.  We don't really get icy moguls here in SV, but they do get very firm.  I'll get more video, which I'm badly needing here.  I thought by now I could get some chairlift video of my QCT's on the groomed or in the bumps, but I'm having a hard time getting it done.  Limited terrain here still, although it is snowing a little and starting to add up.  Add to that I'm having a difficult time coordinating the effort with my 9 yr. old ski partner.  Hopefully I'll get some more video soon.

As for SVMM and firm/icy moguls, the technique and line stay the same, although speed slows way down.  I'd say it would slow down relative to those skiing the rut though.  There is an instance when skiing over the tops is impossible.  It is when you get slush conditions that freeze overnight and don't thaw the next day or days.  The frozen chunks on the tops make is impassable, although in conditions like these the rut is very nasty also and not getting skied either.
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