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Carving on the inside ski - Page 5

post #121 of 131
Master, I have no problem with not agreeing. I have a problem with the idea of suggesting what we collectively should or should not teach based on your conclusions, or E's conclusions about how no turns are possible without ILE, and OLR. Something we all agree is an erroneous conclusion. All I suggested is that we would be using the time tested and widely accepted method of isolating movement to a specific joint and develop awareness of it's effect and limitations on the whole balancing process. Here's just a few widely used drills that use exactly this type of guided discovery method and an isolated use of a joint without changing the length of either leg.
  • Plantar / dorsi flexion fore/ aft balance drills (like the Mahre brother used to do in their clinics)
  • Inversion / eversion of the feet (think sideslips)
  • Rotating the leg without changing the leg length. (bowties in the snow with the ski boots drill)

Exploring the RoM in the hips and pelvis falls into this same catagory. It's teaches a skier how moving the hips and pelvis can affect their balance. It also introduces the idea of projecting the hips and the core into the new turn in a disciplined, deliberate and directionally relevent way. Said another way,  it teaches them how to commit the pelvis to the new turn in a way that has a positive affect on their balance and facilitates balancing better through the next turn.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/15/09 at 7:30am
post #122 of 131

I have made no suggestions that you or any other instructor or coach should or should not isolate movements nor should you or should you not allow flexion in these drills. I have been discussing the merits of using or not using flexion during drills since post 103.

More specifically, the drill you mentioned of raising one side of the pelvis while keeping both feet on the ground is difficult. I will not use it. Even knowing the desired outcome, while I was trying to lift one side of my pelvis, keeping both feet on the ground, the leg on the other side was blocking the movement of the hip to the side. I was placing more weight on the other leg. It didn't work for me without conciously moving my hip to the side, which was not part of the instructions.

I do have athletes experiment and work with their pelvis. A drill I like is to stand on a gentle slope with the skis perpedicular to the fall line and move the hips into the hill. Without any knowledge of the desired outcome, hips move, a little counter develops, legs flex and femurs rotate. All desireable and effective outcomes. When I introduce one movement and I get four, I'm happy, at least in this example, because the athlete has learned what can happen naturally when he moves his hips into the hill.

Please let me state my own conclusions. They are that skiing with flexion and/or extension isgood; skiing without flexion and extension is not good. Drills can be done without it. I like to do drills that allow it.
post #123 of 131
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

Some can and will scoff at the following and are welcome to ignore while it may be of use for others.

As a long time alpine and nordic enthusiast, I like both for their differences as well as their similarities to each other. I consider nordic skiing an excellent cross trainer and improves my alpine skiing due to a much narrower margin of error, leg strength and conditioning, more time on skis/snow, sensitizes foot pressure and feeling center of mass and balance in general.. Aspects of a casual skimming of this thread are very similar to telemark, skating and touring.

Yesterday while working on telemark carving, this thread came to mind due to the necessity of equal pressuring of the trailing, inside ski to carve ((+/-) 50/50 is optimal to carve). The images reminded me of a drill as part of a progression I used to do when teaching tele classes and clinics when we had just started moving from leather boots and skinny skis to plastic, stiffer boots and wider boards. (The demo probably evolved from the many instructor clinics under Tony Forrest, a former Nordic Demo Team coach and very creative individual.) I was usually given those trying to convert to tele due to my alpine background. The major stumbling block was getting alpine skiers to get off of their outside ski, inside edge and applying way more pressure to the inside ski, outside edge. This was (and still is) counterintuitive to a lot of skiers, especially old school.

One thing that helps me and has helped others is to emphasis pressuring the little toe in tele mode or the outside of the foot in alpine mode. The demo and drill was to make alpine turns (free heels) very similar to the images above with 50/50 weighting and gradually add a progressive lead change so the turns evolve into a tele turn. True telemark is about pressuring both skis and not about dropping a knee. The best skiers keep their center of mass between their feet and do not necessarily get very low. To make turns at speed on skinny, no edge, touring and skate skis you have to be on both and your COM has to be dead on or you're screwed.

I'd be curious if other AC/DC skiers see the same thing and see potential benefits for carvers to get in touch with their hidden nordic side every once in a while, especially early season when there may be enough snow to skate or tour ski and not alpine ski. Or when getting to the area isn't convenient or higher skiing frequency is desired.....or simply to mix it up. Try the drill with free heels on ice.

Interesting thread. I need to study it better when there's more time and work on this stuff throughout the season. Thanks.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I started to telemark in the late 80's at the suggestion of pin-head friends and did it exclusively for 15 years. I had become a complacent alpine skier. Telemark opened up a new world to me. The fore/aft and lateral balance you develop is challenging, rewarding, and beneficial to your alpine skiing. All sorts of talk is given to alpine skiing being one-footed however it is really a progression from a two-footed 50/50 stance as a beginner/very slow skier to a one-footed (100/0) stance for a racer/fast skier. Telemark requires a bit more weight on the inside ski in many cases as the ski really needs to be engagned for balance; you have to commit to it to be able to balance with it. Use of all of the full range of weight distribution can mark the difference between a good skier and a great skier. Or making it down the slope safely or not.

In the context of the OP, however, I generally attack steep ice with a fairly one-footed stance while keeping the inside ski engaged and ready to contribute if the outside ski should chatter or break loose.
post #124 of 131
Thread Starter 
^ I like it,thanks.
In the context of the OP, however, I generally attack steep ice with a fairly one-footed stance while keeping the inside ski engaged and ready to contribute if the outside ski should chatter or break loose.
post #125 of 131
MR,Thank you for trying that drill. You hit the nail on the head with the comment that you felt you could not do the drill without consciously allowing the pelvis to move laterally. The inside leg getting in the way is another very important "discovery". We're both using guided discovery to explore new movement patterns without always sharing all the details.
The fact that I use a more conscious focus might simply be that unlike racing, my students don't have the need to focus so much on staying on a pre-determined line. Nor are they skiing at race speeds. Your use of unconscious movements make more sense in those circumstances and demonstrates how different objectives demand different teaching methods.
I'm stuck down in Denver most of this week and driving down to the city Sunday night is never fun. It was even more fun in that storm. I hope you had a chance to enjoy the new snow Monday. I'll be around later this week, maybe we could share some turns then.
post #126 of 131
I worked yesterday in the office, but got some turns on Sunday. Loveland seemed to have received the most snow. I'm around and but probably skiing only a couple hours one day. I have 5 days at Ski Cooper, if we get more snow, starting Saturday. 2 days Masters speed camp, 3 days Juniors speed camp.

I look forward to meeting you on the snow someday.

post #127 of 131

After Reading quite a few of these threads whilts doing some research i thought i'd clear a few things up..

 1. White Pass Turns are a way of practicing Inclining the 1st half of the turn (Been stacked and strong), Then seperating (angulating) at the fall line, this way you get your maximum edge angle at the fall line where it should be, also starts moving your upperbody into the new turn resulting in a smooth cross over.

 2. Weight on Outside ski V's Both Skis... I can see your point that if your on both edges applying pressure you will FEEL like your getting more grip... however it depends what your trying to do... The idea of havin all your pressure on the outside ski is to bend the ski, resulting in a tighter radius... If you create a strong platform (Pressure on Outside ski right at the top of the turn before rolling on to the egde) you should be able to grip on the outside ski even on ice. If you are feeling pressure on the inside ski, its normally a fault in technique and by trying to ski this way delibratly its just a way of glossing over the issue.

 3. 'Chattering' skis is a result of poor pressure managment... normal from trying to apply too much pressure too quickly once you are already on the edges... either apply pressure before rolling onto the new outside skis edge, or apply the pressure slowly.

  Hope this helps

post #128 of 131

so what am i doing wrong the whole time i have been carving on my inside ski or at least locking it in, at least i think i do, how do i get out of the habit and change to putting the power on the outside ski?

post #129 of 131
Originally Posted by miguelf88 View Post

so what am i doing wrong the whole time i have been carving on my inside ski or at least locking it in, at least i think i do, how do i get out of the habit and change to putting the power on the outside ski?

I also do not think you carve on your inside ski. You are probably just keeping your weight on it. Its easy to see if you are carving. Look back at your tracks. If they look like this then you are carving:




A ski that is carving is leaving a sharp track in the snow. In the above photo both skis are carving. In order to carve on the outside ski you need to bring your hips into the turn and lean towards the outside with your upper body. This will put the weight over your outside ski. Check out my video called bad rotation if you need a quick tutorial. Search the forum for it.

post #130 of 131

Having read this entire thread, I noticed that early in the thread the discussion bounced between the instructor view and the racer's view.  I have to admit that I got lost in some of the instructor acronyms.  My daughter is a J3 racer, and her coach last year was big on them dropping a ski and doing runs alternating between left and right.  Later he would put brushes on a small mogul field and have them run that on 1 ski.  It looked as if it was a lesson that would lead to turning on two edges as you road on the uphill edge.  Did I read this wrong?

post #131 of 131

handhdad, your conclusion is correct.

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