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In Extension Deo - Page 3

post #61 of 76
Originally posted by Roto:
thus the long leg/short leg thing happens through varying muscle tension, or different rates of extension, or different rates of flexion rather than a push one/pull the other.


Just out of curiousity, isn't flexion and extension accomplished by varying muscle tension? Isn't that how the push/pull or push/relax is acomplished? I'm not clear as to the basis for disagreement
What is the "opposite movement" that disappears? Isn't the movement pattern developed by the "long leg/short leg" thing the way all the top racers ski today? What are the better alternatives?

[ December 09, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: sieur des monts ]
post #62 of 76
I guess I don't see neutral as having a whole lot to do with it. That's just a place we pass through, right? If I think of when the movement pattern starts I focus on the start of the release of the old turn, if I wanted to break it down. This would be Nolo's falline to falline I guess. If I wanted to take it from neutral I still see one leg getting longer and one getting shorter from a neutral flexed (more or less) position. You're post confused me a little too. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #63 of 76
Originally posted by arcadie:

flex one leg and extend the other. Your body WILL move to one side and, ski boots and bindings having been designed the way they are, the angle of your skis to the snow will change. This is called EDGING! This is largely how we change EDGE ANGLE.
a. Extension is not causing the change in this case. It's extension & flexion.

b. You need to change one sentence above to the following:

This is largely how I change EDGE ANGLE.

ATTN: not saying your description is impossible or incorrect, in relation to technique. It's just not the only, or even best primary option.

[ December 09, 2003, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #64 of 76
nolo, i believe i know what extention-pressure is, i just dont know why anyone would want to master it. unless i misunderstand,(entirely possible)it seems so old school.
post #65 of 76
...the horror.....the horror.....
post #66 of 76
I spent last saturday clinicing with Chris Fellows. A clinic centered around, as he summed it up, "basic sking fundamentals". He jokingly said "I'm a fraud, I didn't say anything you folks didn't already know". True enough, though he did present some of it in a fresh but reasuring way. Timeless fundamentals, not new school, old school. No current psia hype. In fact he went out of his way to get across to us focusing on the current hype can be detrimental to the pursuit of good instruction/coaching and skiing if we neglect the other remaining fundamentals.

I'm as suseptable to the new hype as easy as the next person. Maybe it's that we just want to have a way to separate ourselves from the pack. I don't know? We want to be part of what's happening now, we want to have that new word or meaning, the "real inside skiiny", but that really doesn't change the movements that make skiing efficient and funtional. It's timeless and wordless from a physical viewpoint, but full of emotion and meaning. Each of us can very easily put our emotion and meaning out there in front, offered up for all as "the" definition to good skiing. I know I get caught in that trap. It's not bad to offer it up for inspection by others, but to offer it as "the way" can easily halt dialogue.

The horror as I see it, lies down the road where dialoge and discution become become controled by one individual, group and/or viewpoint. What is right or wrong is less important than the ongoing discution of what we feel and mean by our words typed here on these pages. A difference of oppinion is not bad, in fact it's healthy isn't it? How will I ever know if my meanings attached to skiing fit in in the big picture of skiing if I don't throw them out there and weigh them against others meanings? But that doesn't need to mean abandonment either. In the end it needs to make sense, to relate to physics and physiology, to elicit a change of meaning me. I sure as hell don't want this process to stop for me. It's not changing the physics and physiology of skiing, but the evolving of the meanings attached to skiing for better communication for me.

In the end the mountain is my real teacher, and I get schooled all the time, no matter the "refinment" strides I've made lately. And the easier the meanings I attach to these "schoolings" are relatable to others, the more effective a teacher I become. What better way is there to explore this than with discutions with my peers? If you want to diminish the value of dialogue, fine. I for one won't loose any sleep over it. In the end I would say if you turn away from dialogue you only cheat yourself. Or it could be that the topic just doen't interest you, and that's fine too. But if that were true, the topic would simply be ignored.

I can be as cynical as the next person, maybe worse. We all have our internal battles. But I love skiing, I love turning people on to skiing , and helping them improve, and I like talking about something that I've done passionately for 29 years. No appologies here. Peace, Ric.
post #67 of 76
Originally posted by Ric B:

The horror as I see it, lies down the road where dialoge and discution become become controled by one individual, group and/or viewpoint.
the horror as I see it is peoples' adherence to the known to the degree that resistance to anything that even looks a little bit unlike the known is the instinctive response.

And as always, people can and will always ski just how they want to and that is fine. It always has been and always will be. More power and fun to everyone.
post #68 of 76
Roto, I'm with you here. Whether dumping the old just for the sake of something new, or clinging to the old because it's familiar, it's just opposite sides of the same coin.

You're a carpenter so you can probably relate to this. I spent my life embracing new ways and technologies. Pushing the boundaries, because it made practical sense because it was economical, efficient, and was good conservation of resources all the way across the table. Yet towards the end I found myself actually having to defend some old ways, because people had forgotten that you could still build without metal fastners and tico nails amoung other things. Engineered hardware and specialization had diminished the knowledge base to the point that many an individuals understanding was short changed and suffered. I see this to some degree in skiing too.

Take us out of this cyber world and into the real world and we probably have more in common than not. :
post #69 of 76
I don't see "dumping the old" as a necessity. I rather prefer building on top of it; as long as the foundation is sound. No matter what kind of pinnacle we reach in ability and knowledge there is MORE. It's great to enjoy those pinnacles, but it's just as great to set off on another climb.

Heh, I certainly do see the need to keep and use the "old" knowledge. It is the fundamentals after all. In fact I sort of contest that there is "nothing new under the sun."

The foundations and fundamentals are what help give me the opportunity to keep learning every season, every week and every day.

One of the reasons I keep contributing in the vein I have been doing so in this thread is because I see many things I used to believe being expressed as "what is." Due to the expertise and experience of others I now believe other things. Not that anything from the past is obsolete or "bad" in any way. Simply that there are other options. Better options.

And I know there are more options to technique and understandsing that I have not yet learned. So I do not intend to appear closed minded or as any kind of zealot. But I am passionate about how much there is to learn.

[ December 11, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #70 of 76
And I like a good passionate discution, and I thank you for that. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #71 of 76

I enjoyed seeing the old posts including SCSA and Snokarver.
I think golf is a sport that has cycled back to an earlier era. In the seventies a variety of great golfers had a very minimal pivot, tremendous lateral leg drive, and a subsequent reverce "C" position at the finish. It was tough on backs. Golfers today look more like golfers of a former era with more "turn" in their movements.

I see a lot of kids skiing today who have very little in the way of rotary movements, however, great tipping skills.

I see this a analagous to the time when steel shafts (with torsional rigidity) replaced wooden shafts (tremendous torsion requiring rotary movements to squre the clubface).

Ten years ago skis had to de redirected/turned and then edged. Deb Armstrong wrote a great article in TPS outlining how her rotary skills wained while racing. Now the emphasis is on the edge and the resulting respose of the shaped ski.
post #72 of 76
Yeah I found it very interesting reading that old thread myself. So what name does SCSA post under now? (think he's posing as a maggot?)

Wow. You seem to know a lot about golf...
post #73 of 76
Thread Starter 
cool whip, imagine traversing across a wide bump run. What would you call what your lower body does to keep the skis in contact with the snow in the low spots and in the high spots? Where do you feel the greatest pressure--high or low on the bump?

Stand facing bare wall so that you can lay one palm against it with your arm bent at about 120 degrees (keep your feet under your shoulders). Press your palm against the wall with increasing pressure and try not to change the angle of your arm. Do you find that to continue to increase pressure without contorting your back that your arm needs to straighten? Let your arm straighten and let your feet move to stay balanced, while still trying to find the most pressure you can exert. What's the angle of your arm when you feel you are pressing the hardest? Do you feel pressure ease off when you go straighter from that point? What happens to that angle when you release some (or all) of the pressure? In either case, does the arm flex? Do this a few times, but instead of trying to force the pressure, just press firmly and let the arm straighten to the maximum point and then reverse, letting the arm relax to release pressure, trying go from the max to the minimum pressure very gradually and consistently and notice how your arm is extending and flexing to do so. You are now controlling the pressure of your palm against the wall as you would the pressure of your skis against the snow in a series of turns, increasing pressure with extension and releasing pressure with flexion.

EDIT: I think pressure control is a very big deal in modern skiing. Equipment advances have enabled us to clean up the noise produced by balky skis, ill-fitting and -performing boots, and misalignment of the body to the skis (relatively speaking, of course--we'll look back on today's technology with historical amusement someday, I am sure). Boiling down to the nitty-gritty, the work of skiing is uneven/variable load-bearing. The body extends to handle the greatest loads. As you probably found with the wall demonstration, you have to make flexion/extension adjustments according to the feedback from the wall to do the task--to be gradual and consistent (continuous). With repetition you develop a feel for "the right response from the wall" in your tendons, muscles, and joints.

[ December 15, 2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #74 of 76
hi nolo, thanks for the response. this is fun for me. to talk about things with people with different views and thoughts makes me more intelligent about skiing. to answer your question about traversing bumps, i guess i'd call it pressure management. and in an ideal world(not mine) the pressure would remain constant by the action of the legs.
i tried your experiment with my palm on the wall. think i get it. tell me what you think of this. do your same experiment but pressure your palm by pulling up on the balls of your feet. lift up on your balls so only your heels are on the ground.(try not to laugh to hard, its a dumb name for your feet) can you feel pressure on your palm. again, i understand your point and agree, pressure is a big deal in modern skiing. this just made me think of a bit of a tangent thought. what do you think?
happy face shots
post #75 of 76
WOW. What a thread! I just ski and enjoy my surroundings and friends. Focusing on all that minutiae just distracts me from what I enjoy.
post #76 of 76
Originally posted by Nightingale:
WOW. What a thread! I just ski and enjoy my surroundings and friends. Focusing on all that minutiae just distracts me from what I enjoy.
I'm finding that improving my technique is helping me enjoy skiing more. And, being the analytic I am, thinking about it actually helps me improve my technique. So, this discussion helps me enjoy skiing more.

Besides, when I'm sitting in front of a computer, I can't be skiing, so at least I can be thinking about it! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
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