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ROCKERED SKIS have different camber shapes

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
I was hanging around the ski wall, getting hands on all the popular new skis, and looking at sidecut and camber.

Some of the rockered skis had a really uneven camber and rocker curve. Rossi and Volkl had a nicely contoured shape to the camber. Some of the smaller companies did not. Looked like bent skis, with abrubt changes in the curve line. Looked a little hokey.

This is probably not noticeable in powder, could be wierd on hard snow sections, what's up?
post #2 of 13
A pure reverse camber, reverse sidecut ski, like the Volant Spatula, is great on powder and crud but worthless on hard snow. To help rockered ski perform at resorts, manufacturers are adding some camber and sidecut underfoot. The idea is to retain the float and easy-to-pivot quality of the pure reverse camber, reverse sidecut ski while improving the tracking and traversing ability of the ski on hard snow.





I've put my Spatula next to a Praxis Protest and slid an envelope under the ski until it became pinched between the ski and the floor. This gives an indication of how much of the ski will be in contact with the snow while skiing on hardpack.

The Spatula is more like standing on a saucer, the Protest provides a much longer section underfoot that improves stability and will provide some edgegrip.

Michael
Edited by WILDCAT - 11/30/09 at 8:54am
post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 
Ok, I'm following. And, I have a question. I take the ski and put the tail on the floor and sight down the edge. The curves I see are the camber and rocker. Looking down the edge of these skis, you see a lot of different shapes, between models, and some of the shapes look herky-jerk, uneven, abrubt. Some, S7 for example, had an absolutely continuous varying camber and rocker curves of several radius's, radii.
 
Why are some smooth and some uneven and choppy in shape? and does it matter for anything? 

Volkl's shallow continuous reverse camber curve is radically different from S7 or Praxis's compound curves.

Thanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDCAT View Post



A pure reverse camber, reverse sidecut ski, like the Volant Spatula, is great on powder and crud but worthless on hard snow. To help rockered ski perform at resorts, manufacturers are adding some camber and sidecut underfoot. The idea is to retain the float and easy-to-pivot quality of the pure reverse camber, reverse sidecut ski while improving the tracking and traversing ability of the ski on hard snow.





I've put my Spatula next to a Praxis Protest and slid an envelope under the ski until it became pinched between the ski and the floor. This gives an indication of how much of the ski will be in contact with the snow while skiing on hardpack.

The Spatula is more like standing on a saucer, the Protest provides a much longer section underfoot that improves stability and will provide some edgegrip.

Michael
post #4 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Ok, I'm following. And, I have a question. I take the ski and put the tail on the floor and sight down the edge. The curves I see are the camber and rocker. Looking down the edge of these skis, you see a lot of different shapes, between models, and some of the shapes look herky-jerk, uneven, abrubt. Some, S7 for example, had an absolutely continuous varying camber and rocker curves of several radius's, radii.
 
Why are some smooth and some uneven and choppy in shape? and does it matter for anything? 

Volkl's shallow continuous reverse camber curve is radically different from S7 or Praxis's compound curves.

Thanks.
 


 

The manufacturer can engineer any amount of camber. A pure soft snow ski might start with negative camber and usage in soft snow will increase the amount of negative camber. These skis will float easily and are very easy to turn in soft snow. The curve of the negative camber helps to produce a tight turn radius with some sacrifice in stability.

A compound camber ski, with normal camber underfoot and rocked tips and tails, will also float more easily than a non-rockered ski, but will require more technique to turn while being more stable at speed.

I tend to think of continuous negative camber skis as slalom skis for powder, quick but not as stable as other designs. I tend to think of rockered skis with some traditional camber as giant slalom skis for powder, stable but requiring more effort to turn.

Michael
post #5 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDCAT View Post

I tend to think of continuous negative camber skis as slalom skis for powder, quick but not as stable as other designs. I tend to think of rockered skis with some traditional camber as giant slalom skis for powder, stable but requiring more effort to turn.

Michael
 

I think that Reverse / reverse skis are like SL skis in pow in that they are manoeuvrable. They are like GS skis in that they are not twitchy  and are very stable and predictable when in their environment. They are capable of any turn shape in deep snow as far as I can tell.
post #6 of 13
Thread Starter 
that's interesting. what skis have you ridden? I'm going to photo the camber designs along the edge today. then we can disect each design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post




I think that Reverse / reverse skis are like SL skis in pow in that they are manoeuvrable. They are like GS skis in that they are not twitchy  and are very stable and predictable when in their environment. They are capable of any turn shape in deep snow as far as I can tell.
 
post #7 of 13
I have skied the 185 praxis powder. 

If you look at praxisskis.com and read the descriptions for the Parxis powder and the Protest you can see what Keith says about both of these skis. 
post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 
IMAGES OF CAMBER AND ROCKER,
S7, Moment, Kuro, Rossignol Pro, ?






here are some shots of the camber of several powder specific, new shape skis:
Edited by davluri - 12/2/09 at 7:59am
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
With a series of storms arriving in the Sierra, these rocker and  early rise designs should be more exciting to contemplate
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

IMAGES OF CAMBER AND ROCKER,
S7, Moment, Kuro, Rossignol Pro, ?






here are some shots of the camber of several powder specific, new shape skis:
post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 
the second and the fifth picture clearly show a lumpy uneven and abrubt sort of camber line. what's that all about? The S7 and the (4th) Rossi Pro are not that way, they are a continuous varying smooth curve. It has to be the shape of the press so why make an uneven shape in the press. they look bent or tweaked. they are from the smaller companies

the early rise, elongated, enlarged tip must be to create lift, to cause a ski to plane up. How does that affect skiing? first hand insights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

IMAGES OF CAMBER AND ROCKER,
S7, Moment, Kuro, Rossignol Pro, ?






here are some shots of the camber of several powder specific, new shape skis:
post #11 of 13
If you really want some insight as to the quality of some of these skis and especially one of the ones pictured.......take a true bar along with you........

SJ
post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

If you really want some insight as to the quality of some of these skis and especially one of the ones pictured.......take a true bar along with you........

SJ

I think many of us might find it beneficial if you were clear on which skis you are referring to. Otherwise you kind of taint the whole lot of them in many people's eyes.

Although this does raise an interesting question. At what point does overall design trump the "details"? I know that for soft snow, I'd rather have a Praxis or Kuro or EP Pro (all well made skis from my POV) that's had a hammer taken to its edges than any (literally) conventional ski. And I might even be OK with some other company's manufacturing  "sloppiness" if it got me the best design & handling. If needed, I could just get the local shop to clean it up a bit.

I know we disagree on this - but the best of the newer designs so rule over old school cambered skis that I'd rather spend my money on a ski that's better in terms of doing its job & simply replace it sooner if I needed to.  That said, I challenge you to find a ski materially better made than - or that'll take a beating like  - a Praxis...

(and yes. I confess I was fuzzy on "best" because I'm not sure the line has been clearly drawn yet. For the moment I remain skeptical of skis blending rocker with any meaningful camber - except for some very specific purposes - maybe...) 
post #13 of 13
Spin:

I think it is safe to say that figuring out which ski is poorly made is not all that hard. We have seen a fair number of skis that are basically untunable b/c the shaping out of the mold is so poor. If that doesn't matter to someone, cool by me. However, the final quality of a ski does matter to most folks and a suggestion to pack a true bar is not out of whack. Pointing out which model/brand sucks from a q/c standpoint would be unnecessary as the ones that one might want to by wary of are pretty obvious to the eye.

FWIW.....we think extremely highly of the quality of Praxis skis. Keith seems to value quality finish work as well and in fact we have done the finish work for most of the skis Keith has sold this year. We are also stocking some of their skis (which is something that we would not consider with some other brands)

Obviously, quality and the value of same is squarely in the eye of the beholder.

SJ
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