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# Balance, a spin off of the Great Quiz thread. - Page 2

Pierre,

Its a matter of intent. When I activly begin to flatten my ride ski in the last third or so of the turn it ceases to be a ride ski and therefore must be a guide ski at that point. Since efficent top level skiing requires the stability of a ride ski combined with the precise directional control of a guide ski at the moment that I start to use the new guide ski I must intend to make the old guide ski my new ride ski and I start the process of balancing over that ski/foot. I do this well before that foot recieves any pressure and will therefore be ready for the pressure when it hits.

The guide ski is the one that you are using to actively shape the turn. The other one is the ride ski be prepared to ride it.

Hope that this further confuses things as that is what it takes to learn.

Yd
I'm COMPLETELY with Nolobolono (finally got all them "o's" in place) on this ride except that that yin and yang thing throws me. Anyway, you can't have sequential flow.
Si, lifting and tipping certainly does produce a different movement pattern than moving to both new edges. That's the point. Lifting and tipping is an interruption of the move into the turn.
Hey Si
Using the pole plant to END a turn "tricks" the Athlete/student into: Moving CM down the hill across edged skis which "tips" the skis off the old edges and onto the new.

I think this is a cue that produces an effect at the "base" of the kinetic chain. Concentrate on ENDING the turn with pole plant. This is different than the starting a turn with a pole plant.
Call them XX and XY if you want.

I find that people remember the sexy cues better than the nonsexy cues.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kneale Brownson:
Si, lifting and tipping certainly does produce a different movement pattern than moving to both new edges. That's the point. Lifting and tipping is an interruption of the move into the turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kneale, can't say I agree with you on this. Perhaps when I use the term lift and tip you are thinking of an exaggerated lifting movement so I will revise it to lighten and tip. Suggesting to a not-too-advanced skier to move to both new edges is not as all as effective as lighten (or lift) and tip in order to get the basic efficient movement pattern which I think most here could agree is a primary goal. For the advanced skier (those who already know the sensations and movement pattern well) I think it may be a bit more a matter of what they've trained with although I still think that some cues work better than others. Of course the cue can also vary with the situation. In softer snow, where I use much more equal weighting, I don't think about lighten and tip because there is much less need for the weight shift associated with "lighten."
Well, Si, how often are you teaching this to the "not-too-advanced skier"? Are you teaching this to the not-too-advanced skier who's been skiing that way for some time or to someone relatively new to not being too advanced? I encounter both these circumstances routinely several times a week.

I agree that someone who's been skiing for some time (at a plateau) without using the inside ski much at turn initiation can have difficulty initially adapting to a 2-edge change. But where outside ski dominance at initiation has not become totally ingrained, I find folks can learn to go for two new edges relatively easily.
I got here late but there seems to be a some confusion as to which activities are learning processes and which are outcomes (flour, sugar and eggs compared to cake?), which shouldn't invite a comparisome.

I see lifting & tipping as a learning process. I see those more simowhatsumus movments as an outcome. Any skier who origionally learned big-toe-to-big-toe needs to change their "order of movement" if they wish to ever closely approach the mythical simo movements. Otherwise the knees close when direction of movement change is triggered by going for the opposite big toe first and it doesn't even look close to simo. (fyi: reaserchers have wired people up and simo can't be done because of opposite muscle groups used to move lower extremities in the same direction (L or R). A well trained athlete can get close enough to fool the eye, but only when the side in the direction of movement (as in new inside) goes first. Thats always been good enough for me to use the simo refrence in a realistic context.) But for sake of accuracy maybe I'll totally abandone it and just call them syncronised movements instead (no pre-prejudices there I think) to refrence well coordinated movements that result in a simo appearing outcome.

Anyway, for the big-toe-2-b-t skier to get there via the needed order of movement a stepping stone process is needed. First make it sequential, as in lift, then tip. With a big enough intential gap in the sequence to be aware of the process. Next lighten and tip, and maybe shrink the gap a little. Once the order of movement is changed the evolution is underway and the gap can eventually dissapear, or reapear, as desired to suit any skiing outcome, or puzzle underfoot.

If the new inside doesn't go first, it is in the way from the beginning and the equally mythical "complementing" movements at best only reduce its interferance and can never change its role to enabling or enhancing, much less leading.

Left foot leads to go left, right foot leads to go right. So simple, so natural. I might even go so far as to suggest that we have a cosmic endorsment for efficient skiing in the fact that our DNA is hard wired for our bodies to walk and run in that order of movement.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 18, 2002 09:22 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Arcmeister ]</font>
I like the term synchronized, Roger, but every dictionary in my house defines synchronized as "events happening at the same time".

I'm reminded of Nolobolono's differentiation between the artistic view and the scientific. Human physical activity may be measured electronically to ACTUALLY be nonsynchronic when it appears to be synchronic to the observer. The important thing to me is not how it looks to someone else but how it feels to the individual.

I think the feeling of going for a two-edged change has to come from the ski you're standing on harder at the point the transition commences. I've been using the mental picture of a skilled snowboarder rolling off the heel edge onto the board's base and going for the toe edge as what I want my old outside ski to do as it becomes the new inside ski at initiation of the new edge application. But I maintain that I'm passing through neutrality of weight bearing, CM being positioned on the perpendicular line from the slope and nonedging on the way to the edge change if it's occuring with an offensive flow.

I like Yadnar's "ride ski" terminology for the dominant ski in a turn.

Wigs's "dive" into the turn CAN lead to leading with the head. I like to think in terms of the CM feeling as though it's in a freefall that gets redirected by what we do with the skis.

You could call preparing for the point of neutrality in the transition between turns a lightening of the old outside ski, I suppose. A lightening of the one ski does occur as the other becomes more equally weighted. But I see way too many skiers applying weight to a ski by taking it away from the other one to feel comfortable with advising anyone to think in those terms.
Kneale,

I don't know what's going on, but you have perfectly expressed my views on the subject, much clearer than I have.

Grok!

"I maintain that I'm passing through neutrality of weight bearing, CM being positioned on the perpendicular line from the slope and nonedging on the way to the edge change if it's occuring with an offensive flow."

I feel exactly the same.

NB
Si,

>>On the other hand, a simple but effective cue may help initiate a kinetic chain of movement that results in the goal (although proper guidance can certainly help the development). <<

....And you are absolutely right, Si. Just telling our students to dive down the hill may be a tuff task for most of them. But it does work for a few. That's why I think, as you have stated, we need to use cues or other ways of getting them to dive down the hill.

>>I am a strong believer in use of simple "external" cues such as lift and tip.<<

I use this same cue, but worded a little different, ( Up and Over ). I think it is important thought that the student understands that the up part should be more of an extension in the new direction of travel.

>>Additioanlly developing a simple cue for initiation of movement also takes the focus away from the goal of moving the CM down the hill which is often interpreted as falling - often with some very negative consequences resulting from the natural tendency to avoid a fall. For these reasons (and my own observations and experience) I am a strong believer in use of simple "external" cues such as lift and tip.<<

This is true, but still, it's what we want them to do. You are so right that we must come up with different ways of TRICKING them into diving, falling, moving, jumping, or whatever you want to call it, into the next turn.

I'm not so sure I would use the lifting of the old outside ski as part of the new turn process. By lifting the old outside ski, one is transferring the CM up the hill instead of down. IMHO, not to efficient. But the tipping that you suggested is one I use all the time.

Kneale Brownson ,

>>
Wigs's "dive" into the turn CAN lead to leading with the head. I like to think in terms of the CM feeling as though it's in a freefall that gets redirected by what we do with the skis.<<

:
Wigs, thanks for the feedback. As you said we've got to find what works. A number of years ago (before I really was introduced to concepts of motor learning and ski instruction) I was with my kids (then about 8 or 9 years old) at Big Sky. We found this relatively steep chute (~35-40 degrees) and I was trying to get my daughter to connect turns in this type of terrain. I gave her the traditional "just let your body go down the hill and, trust me, your skis will follow." Well something clicked for her (desire to succeed and thus a willingness to believe?) and to this day she is at her best connecting short turns in the steeps. While I now have many more tools to get her to this point I doubt that at the time I could find anything more effective than a simple go for it!

On the lift/lighten --> tip and shifting the weight uphill. This is certainly something to be on the lookout for and a consequence which can be much more readily avoided with proper guidance/instruction. I actually like to think about "retraction" of the ski towards my upper body as opposed to lift or lighten. Also if someone is shifting their weight uphill I think there are a number of exercises that can be used. One of my favorites is to ski with both poles dragging behind in the snow. This tends to provide an experience that can help eliminate both up unweighting and shifting of weight uphill.
Si

>>I gave her the traditional "just let your body go down the hill and, trust me, your skis will follow." <<

And what little girl would not trust in her fathers words of encouragement? [img]smile.gif[/img]

>>One of my favorites is to ski with both poles dragging behind in the snow. This tends to provide an experience that can help eliminate both up unweighting and shifting of weight uphill. <<

This is one of my favorites also. It does so many thing to improve the stance and balance of our students. It also helps them start to understand the development of angles.-----------Wigs :
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