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Balance, a spin off of the Great Quiz thread.

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
I would like to bring up for discussion something that I have been playing with in the last couple of weeks that seems to tie into the last few posts in the great quiz thread. I have copied a few of the things that Nord and Nolobolo said that stand out for me. What I have been brainstorming and playing with is paying big dividends. So much so, that I have got to think that I am on the right track.

Nord said:
>>“I am I thought "active" outside leg tipping was called angulation. What's the difference?
what's the differnce between tipping and rolling from edge to edge. Do you really tip new inside ski first from during turn intiation from a straight run?
I try to move shins simultaneously. Trying to maintain parallel shafts/similar edge angles. So outside leg shouldn't run into anything. “<<

One of the lines in nolobolos’ response was:

>>“Just for a moment, let's assume that it is physically impossible to move both sides of the body simultaneously. Given that one side needs to be first:”<<

To which Nord responded:

>>“Simultaneous movement may be the goal, but in the same way balance is a goal--unattainable but sought after nonetheless.
NB"
Just as we seek to be balanced. We should also seek to be simultaneous”<<

I am starting to convince myself that simultaneous movements are not the goal. There is much being proposed lately to back this up. I have been playing a lot with the idea of dynamic balance and what it really is and how it really works.
I am starting to see nolobolo’s statement above, as more or less absolute if one is to maintain dynamic balance. What I am starting to see is that when both skis are sliding, a skier can maintain steady dynamic balance if one ski is used in balance by not originating any movements between that ski and the center of balance position. In other words, one leg/foot is held very steady and the other foot used for movements/control. Passive movement of the balance ski is ok as long as the movement does not originate in the muscles holding the balance foot/leg steady .
You can prove it to yourself in side slips. If you balance on the uphill ski and tip the downhill ankle downhill to start the slip and continue to maintain balance almost exclusively on the uphill ski without any active movements of the uphill ski the side slip can be controlled much more precise and over much more variable snow conditions than if balance is say near 50/50. Not only can the side slip be controlled more precise but you can control any stance width up to as wide as you can get your feet apart and on very gentle or steep terrain. Any time you move both feet at the same time you transfer balance back and forth between feet and consistent side slipping stops.
Now continuing with the side slip, if an extension laterally down the hill is started in the downhill leg by using more tipping of the foot/ knee and cm movements a perfect pivot slip results even if your feet are 2 ½ feet apart. Balance must be transferred to the new uphill foot progressively through the turn finish and shin contact must be maintained at all times. Note the uphill (balance) leg extends but passively, as a result of the movements in the downhill foot/ knee and no movements originate in the uphill leg. At the fall line the new uphill leg progressively becomes passive.
This is quite consistent with Harald Harbs Phantom move that has an entirely passive stance ski. Unlike Harb though, I am doing quite a bit of non passive movements including what I would call active steering with the inside(free) foot.
I guess what I am seeing is that our foot/leg movements need to constantly change progressively and consistently, from active to passive and back between feet, as we progress through turns. For a brief moment the skis are both passive at transition. This is hardly what I would call simultaneous. In gaining an understanding that both feet should not be active together I am really getting an even earlier edge and very smooth powerful turns. Its so easy and natural to move both feet/legs at the same time but I am beginning to see that as a real big problem.
I think this is the real key to skiing crud and poor snow conditions. I think most skiers actively transfer balance back and forth between their feet subtly several times during turns. They are never really balanced anywhere near as well as they could be. I think this is the one thing that really comes out in the PMTS movement, ultimately far better balance. I think this is why PMTS has its following. I am starting to combine PMTS with everything else in perspective.
Gotta go, I hope I said what I meant.
post #2 of 43
OK, Pierre eh I understand your post and also that I was your guinea pig for about 2 hours on Monday. However, I do understand your point here and you can feel the difference when you work through the exercises that we were woking on.

However, over the past few days of active inside ski steering I have become too tall in my skiing. Matt Tu. saw this in me tonight. What could that be from? What I don't understand about the inside ski steering that you had me practicing was whether I should be obataining a pure carved turn. The lower I got in my stance the better I carved my turns. Also I am starting to notice that I do not think about pull my inside ski back as much but keeping it were is should be.

Lastly, can you clarify the active steering of the inside ski. Should I be applying rotary movement as defined in my PSIA manuals in the turns.

My main concern now is not becoming static on outside half.

Ed

Ps. While I feel some progess I am completely a mess before this weekends event. I am blending the old with the new and nothing seems to be working perfectly. [img]redface.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 15, 2002 08:19 PM: Message edited 1 time, by PowDigger ]</font>
post #3 of 43
Pierre has caught my eye.

I think what he is saying is the importance of balance?

Well, if so, I'm in his boat big time.
Because what I really learned from PMTS, if nothing else, was how to balance on my skis -- and it pays off big time. Lots of times, I get by on balance, nothing else. Sure. Poling is important and your body has to be coordinated. But it's the balance, more than anything.

I may love perfect balance more than I love perfect turns?

Look at Bode (and I think he'll be greater than Tomba - if he stays healthy). Where he's killing everyone is he's so much better at balancing on his skis.
post #4 of 43
I wondered how long it was going to take to get to this(balance). Next,getting your skis away from your center of balance(lateral projection). The lower I got in my stance the better I carved my turns.

<font color="#000080" size="5" face="Cheap">Your on the right
track.</font></p>
post #5 of 43
SCSA,

I was thinking about you when Kurt and I were skiing Monday. I thnik you would really enjoy some and excell at some the excercises the we were working on. It is to bad that Pierre can't make Fernie he would probably make you his next unwitting guinea pig because I skied all those exercises on monday before I even knew were he was going with it.

Ed
post #6 of 43
Finally something interesting to talk about.

Are you guys with me on Bode?
post #7 of 43
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SCSA:
Finally something interesting to talk about.

Are you guys with me on Bode?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep! check out the thread in general, "Why didn't he fall?" Look at my answer.
[img]smile.gif[/img]


See ya guys next week!
post #8 of 43
Thread Starter 
Powdigger Posted in >>><<<:
>>>However, over the past few days of active inside ski steering I have become too tall in my skiing. Matt Tu. saw this in me tonight. What could that be from? <<<

This could be from two things, you're concentrating on riding on a balanced ski and forgetting to flex in the turn or you are looking at your skis.

>>What I don't understand about the inside ski steering that you had me practicing was whether I should be obataining a pure carved turn. The lower I got in my stance the better I carved my turns. Also I am starting to notice that I do not think about pull my inside ski back as much but keeping it were is should be.<<<
No, pure carved turns are a myth. The shorter the turn the less it is a pure carve. The inside ski will carve slightly less than the outside ski. What you are really after is the tail following the tip without pushing out the tails.
As far as holding the inside foot back where it should be. I don't know without looking at you but it took me the better part of a season to make it permanent.

>>>Lastly, can you clarify the active steering of the inside ski. Should I be applying rotary movement as defined in my PSIA manuals in the turns.<<<

Ahh not per-se. This is what my discussions with Arcmeister were about. Yes as defined in the alpine manual but not the way anybody who doesn't presently apply it would interperate the manual. There is a lot of movements in the manual that are confusing in this way. Arcmeister was calling it passive as the rotary (pressure sideways on the little toe edge) is the result of tipping and holding the foot back where it should be (ankle flex). I was calling it active because the inside foot is active and all motions of holding the inside foot back, tipping the inside foot, the passive rotary and the shortening of the leg are all blended together into fluid motion that I call "active steering of the inside leg". The difference was Arcmeister was talking about one motion and I was talking about the whole thing.

>>>My main concern now is not becoming static on outside half.<<<
If the inside is constantly moving and blending the outside half will follow. Last time I saw you, you were connected in the middle.

>>>Ps. While I feel some progess I am completely a mess before this weekends event. I am blending the old with the new and nothing seems to be working perfectly.<<<

Welcome to taking apart you're skiing and putting it back together again. I was so messed up in my level one test that I practically forgot how to ski. My scores on the level one test were barely passing. Two weeks latter, I passed the level two. The level one test is where I started tearing down the old and putting in the new. You are one week ahead of where I was. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #9 of 43
PowDigger,

Are you getting Level I (or II) certification this weekend? If yes, good luck and I look forward to congratulate you in person next week!

As for Pierre's original subject, I have mixed feelings. As skill increases the initial tipping of the inside foot becomes more automatic and begins to blend with the tipping and pressure exerted by the outside foot. It is really hard to say that one or the other is the only way to go. Much depends on turn size, snow conditions, etc.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 16, 2002 07:19 AM: Message edited 1 time, by TomB ]</font>
post #10 of 43
"The shorter the turn the less it is a pure carve." I am starting to bite Pierre's.
post #11 of 43
Since balance was brought up, and SCSA said he does it well, I'll second that, he has AMAZING balance.

SCSA, I'm leaving for a three week vacation tomorrow and I want to make peace with you before that, I'm glad you are back, you make this baord interesting, and I will try in the future to refrain from comenting on you or your skiing.

Welcome back, I actually missed you ... : [img]smile.gif[/img]

..Ott
post #12 of 43
Ott, have a good vacation!!! Don't worry about SCSA. We'll take care of him in Fernie. We'll make him skid his turns, we'll make him do the snowplough and we'll make him do sperm turns all over the mountain. Of course, we'll have to get him very drunk first.

Slider, thanks for the nice words. I am looking forward to meet you.
post #13 of 43
Ott,

I don't know you, but I love you. One thing I love about you is your spunk. And your words, "Ski for yourself" - will never leave me. I'll teach my kids those words.

I talk to you like I'd talk to a very good friend. One benefit of having friends is you get to fight with them sometimes.

And, I'm just an emotional weirdo. No doubt about it.

post #14 of 43
Pierre eh!

>>I am starting to convince myself that simultaneous movements are not the goal.<<

IMHO,getting down the hill is the goal. And how you do it make no difference as long as you make it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Although, there are some ways that are better than others, no?

I'm getting a little
: about what you believe simultaneous is. For me, simultaneous movement is important because it's quicker than a sequential move. Like twice as quick, since sequential means a 1,2, move and simultaneous means 1 move. But the way one weights their skis can be referred to as sequential I think. Watching the Olympics and the combined, the skiers that moved their feet and knees in unison were cleaner in the coarse than those who did not. And the once that did not, it was because of a mistake, they were out of balance. On the most part, what ski racers are doing is not what we see in our students because the forces the ski racer is feeling isn't anywhere close to what our students are feeling. But the image that the racer gives, stance somewhat, balance, hand position, AND SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT is something, IMHO, we want our students to obtain.

>>In other words, one leg/foot is held very steady and the other foot used for movements/control. <<

This sounds very sequential to me. Why not use both feet for movement/control?

>>You can prove it to yourself in side slips. If you balance on the uphill ski and tip the downhill ankle downhill to start the slip and continue to maintain balance almost exclusively on the uphill ski without any active movements of the uphill ski the side slip can be controlled much more precise and over much more variable snow conditions than if balance is say near 50/50. <<

Pierre eh!, This is a weighting issue and not a movement issue, I believe. Again, I believe that the weighting of inside and outside ski is sequential thing. Although, the proportions of weight allotted to each ski will change according to terrain types and snow conditions.

>>Now continuing with the side slip, if an extension laterally down the hill is started in the downhill leg by using more tipping of the foot/ knee and cm movements a perfect pivot slip results even if your feet are 2 ½ feet apart. Balance must be transferred to the new uphill foot progressively through the turn finish and shin contact must be maintained at all times. <<

The picture I'm seeing in my head is the skier is standing tall and leaning somewhat up the hill. Is this what we want our students to strive for? : Pierre eh! I'm sitting here on the keyboard and simulating this in my head. I will take it on the hill tomorrow and play with it. I have all the respect for you and your teaching ability, but I'm a little confused with your thinking here.

>>I guess what I am seeing is that our foot/leg movements need to constantly change progressively and consistently, from active to passive and back between feet, as we progress through turns. For a brief moment the skis are both passive at transition. This is hardly what I would call simultaneous. <<

This is what I'm having a hard time understanding. The first part of the paragraph IMHO, you are talking about movement, which is simultaneous. And the second part of the paragraph, weighting, which is sequential.

Anyway, maybe you can run that by me again. ----------Wigs
post #15 of 43
Thread Starter 
Wigs, like I said I am not sure exactly how to put into words what I am thinking and seeing on snow. You said:
>>For me, simultaneous movement is important because it's quicker than a sequential move. Like twice as quick, since sequential means a 1,2, move and simultaneous means 1 move. But the way one weights their skis can be referred to as sequential I think.<<<

Maybe sequential isn't what I am after, I am also thinking one move. That move being the inside foot, the outside foot follows passively. Since the outside foot/leg follows passively, is it really sequential? If done correctly it would likely appear to be simultaneous to the eye as the outside leg would follow at about the same time. As far as squential weight transfer, that is what I am starting to see as much more progressive and not really needing to be sequential at all. I am starting to see that balance transfer doesn't necessarily mean weight transfer at all but rather, passive and active movements. These movements just happen to always occur naturally with weight transfer, but do they have to. This may help you with the confusion on the image that you have of the side slip.
With you're feet 2 1/2 feet apart, weight transfer to the uphill ski is difficult and results in leaning uphill as you have said. In this case, this is where I was really getting the idea that movement and weight transfer could be separated within dynamic balance. You can in fact be carrying more weight on the downhill ski but still balancing on the uphill ski by isolating you're movements in the downhill ski only. How, by holding the uphill leg/foot very steady and only working with tipping the downhill foot. Its very hard to do without a natural weight transfer or movement in the uphill leg but it does indeed appear to work and proves to me that in dynamic balance , movements and weight transfer are two separate issues that just happen to coincide natually together.
I guess what I am saying in the long run is, that if we separate balance and weight transfer, we can train ourselves to shift balance before weight transfer and then, weight transfer is not sequential and the results are much smoother. Maybe I still don't have the right words for what I am seeing on snow.
This would explain your confusion as stated in you're last paragraph. I am thinking opposite.

>>This is what I'm having a hard time understanding. The first part of the paragraph IMHO, you are talking about movement, which is simultaneous. And the second part of the paragraph, weighting, which is sequential.<<

I think in the case of racers, they have learned to do this naturally over many years of perfection. I am wondering if we can speed things up by teaching this. Before I do that, I had better make sure I am using the right words to explain it.
Maybe I think too much. I guess that is why I have patents to my name. I go beyond the obvious.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 16, 2002 11:42 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Pierre eh! ]</font>
post #16 of 43
Thread Starter 
I am still not convinced that I have it all right is my head. It could be as simple as we must steady our new outside leg completely (passive) before transfering weight and balance to it. That is still something that 99% of all skiers don't understand even though many think that they do.
post #17 of 43
If you focus on starting a turn by moving the new inside foot to its outside edge and get a better inside edge on your outside foot "passively" as a result, I remain unconvinced that edge (the inside one of the outside foot) can't be improved upon with a little additional attention. Maybe all you guys who feel that the engagement of the little toe edge gives you all the big toe edge you need started out being strong outside-foot carvers initially??????

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 16, 2002 12:44 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Kneale Brownson ]</font>
post #18 of 43
Tom B said:

"It is really hard to say that one or the other is the only way to go."

Tom, it's really important to remember there is no one way to do anything on skis. A good skier has a variety of ways to go anywhere anytime and picks the way that best suits her/his mood and circumstances at the moment.
post #19 of 43
Pierre eh!,

>>I guess what I am saying in the long run is, that if we separate balance and weight transfer, we can train ourselves to shift balance before weight transfer and then, weight transfer is not sequential and the results are much smoother. <<

I'm not sure you can separate the two. But I think that focus on a balance shift, or moving the CM to create weight transfers is the way to go. When moving to the new direction of travel, one must be fine tuning balance while moving. So the two are not separate, but tied together, IMHO. I hear it on the hill, and read it in this forum all the time about big toe little toe, tipping this ankle, tipping that ankle, etc. All this is sequential thinking, IMHO. I don't think that it's wrong, but possibly confusing to some. Again, I believe all that is needed to go left and right is movement of the CM in the direction desired. And this is one move not two. By doing a ONE move with the CM, everything else that follows is passive.

>>These movements just happen to always occur naturally with weight transfer, but do they have to. <<

We are on the same page, I believe. But going after the same results the opposite way. [img]smile.gif[/img] It kinda sounds like you are wrestling with the two ideas. 1. weight transfer to create movement. 2. Movement to create weight transfer. IMHO, weight transfer first is more active, and movement first also being active, creates a more passive weight transfer. I'M SO CONFUSED!!!!! Not really. [img]smile.gif[/img]

>>Maybe sequential isn't what I am after, I am also thinking one move. That move being the inside foot, the outside foot follows passively. Since the outside foot/leg follows passively, is it really sequential? <<

I think this is right on. But why think of the inside and outside foot? isn't this sequential thinking. Why not think, just dive down the hill, and the rest will follow. Yeah, the results are simultaneous, but again, IMHO, the thinking on how you obtained the result is sequential.
I've always been a big fan of KISS. ( Keep it simple stupid ) And I always remind myself of this when working with new and intermediate skiers. Advanced skier want to hear all the BLAA BLAA BLAA. [img]smile.gif[/img] I've always gotten better results trying to keep to a minimum the discussion about inside, outside, big toe, little toe, etc, and just said dive or move in the new direction of travel with the CM. After they feel the results of this, then I may back track and discuss cause and effect, get specific about what the inside and outside skis are doing because of the CM move.

Anyway, GREAT THREAD, Pierre eh!--------------Wigs :
post #20 of 43
I find what Pierre is saying rings true to a proper telemark turn too.

Through the telemark turn's progression the uphill foot becomes the more dynamic of the two feet moving through the turn. More edge pressure and in turn, balance over the inside edge become the focus of the inside foot passing through the falline.

This progression sets the skier up nicely to make the "phantom edge move" with the down hill edge since so much pressure/balance is on the uphill edge/foot.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this.
post #21 of 43
Thread Starter 
Pinhead, you are absolutely right and with your explanation, you are making some things much clearer to me. I had forgoten about what happens in telemark.
In the telemark, balance and pressure is transfered to the old inside progressively long before edge change. The foot lead is also backwards of the normal alpine position and the counter is not as great as with alpine as well, Bingo.
While doing these wide footed pivot slips today I noticed that I did not have anywhere near as much counter as I use too for side slips and my tip lead was near zero.
Wigs is right about not really being able to separate balance from weight transfer but we can separate active and passive movements.

Wigs is also right that this is an ongoing process of clarification for me. Between what Wigs is offering, Pinhead's input and more time today on snow, I am seeing the following.
With the tips near zero lead and the normal resulting reduction in counter, weight transfer and balance can be transfered smoothly to the old inside ski long before edge change instead of at edge change or a split second after. (loading the inside ski progressively at the end of the previous turn without banking). With these movements a smoother transition and even earlier edge can be attained without sacrificing anything, even in short turns. I think this is exactly what I am seeing in the top world racers.
Why do I care; Because I can teach it from a wide side slip using very very simple terms and movements.
What does it mean; The Jerome Nobis look even at less than break neck speeds and better times in the race course. Pefect parallel entry at any stance width you choose, every time.
post #22 of 43
Is this "loading" the old inside ski occurring progressively or in one quick move, Pierre, eh!? Do you view this as different from passing through a neutral or 50-50 weighted state at the transition between turns?
post #23 of 43
Thread Starter 
Oh man Kneale you just threw a new curve into my head game again. Yes, the loading of the old outside ski is progressive and I don't have a clue if its 50-50. I do view it different and appear to be able to vary the weight distribution much greater than I could before. What I am doing appears to be much more shutting down the active steering of the inside foot sooner and activating the steering of the outside/new inside ski sooner/ before edge change. I am leaving marks in the snow from my skis much more like the transition of a good snowboarder instead of a blend from a stance that is far wider than what I was before.
I have to go experiment on the snow and tune into whats happening again. See you in a couple a weeks eh!
post #24 of 43
simultaneous foot movement + independant pressure control + a strong centered core = a balanced skier.

The mix is dynamic.

Is balance the starting point or the end result?

Oz
post #25 of 43
Hi Wigs,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wigs:

Why not think, just dive down the hill, and the rest will follow. Yeah, the results are simultaneous, but again, IMHO, the thinking on how you obtained the result is sequential.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know this was a rhetorical question but I think that there is good reason why directing someone to "just dive down the hill" doesn't work all that often. I don't think that there is any doubt that getting the CM moving down and across the fall line is the GOAL. However, in skiing (as in other sports) people may have great difficulty initiating and carrying out a smooth and efficient kinetic chain of movement to achive the GOAL. On the other hand, a simple but effective cue may help initiate a kinetic chain of movement that results in the goal (although proper guidance can certainly help the development). Additioanlly developing a simple cue for initiation of movement also takes the focus away from the goal of moving the CM down the hill which is often interpreted as falling - often with some very negative consequences resulting from the natural tendency to avoid a fall. For these reasons (and my own observations and experience) I am a strong believer in use of simple "external" cues such as lift and tip.

I certainly don't mean to say that this is the only way, only that it is one to always at least consider.
post #26 of 43
Thread Starter 
Sorry about the misquote NB :
post #27 of 43
I can see why the quote was misassigned, Pierre, since we're both NB.

As for simultaneous, the ice dancers' side by side sequence is supposed to be "simultaneous" -- it isn't REALLY, PERFECTLY simultaneous, but closeness is what is scored.

I wouldn't get hung up on "passive" and "active" foot. Both feet must be active! If only one foot is active, the skier is out of balance: When one foot moves, the other has to move too.

Nord asks about scissoring if you tip and guide the inside before the outside. If there is a lag, you will obviously get that effect.

My goal is to move through an imaginary line exactly between turn 1 and turn 2 in perfect neutral, all the dials at zero, and to dial in the next turn from the inside out, but with both edges describing the turn arc simultaneously.

I go to both left edges when I want to go left. I go to both right edges when I want to go right. Why make it more complex than that?
post #28 of 43
Hi Nord,

Pole planting can certainly be a useful cue. However, as a general guideline, especially for an instructor or coach providing guidance to another I would first try and find a cue that produces an effect at the "base" of the kinetic chain. While this may not be the same for everyone I feel comfortable in thinking that the base of the kinetic chain in skiing starts at the feet.

Hi Nolo,

I'd like to repspond to your rhetorical question as well (obvious appearances aside I am not trying to become the rhetorical question king):

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nolobolono:

I go to both left edges when I want to go left. I go to both right edges when I want to go right. Why make it more complex than that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is a good reason to make it different (not necessarily more complex) than that. Different cues suggest/produce different movement patterns for different people. IMHO lifting and tipping the downhill ski at turn initiation tends to initiate a very different movement sequence than going to both edges. For you, I am sure that a 2-edge change is all you need to think about (feel is probably a better term here). However, in trying to teach someone, I think lifting and tipping the one ski is much more likely to lead to getting a skier to move their CM (or perhaps let it fall) down the fall line.
post #29 of 43
Thread Starter 
Nolobolo, I understand where you are coming from. You are alluding to the fact that all this technobabble is unnecessary in teaching. That is absolutely true but we are not on snow so I ask you to get outside the box for a minute. I am not trying to criticize you here, just rattle your brain loose. I suspect that rattling you're brain, stimulates you.
You said:
>>>I wouldn't get hung up on "passive" and "active" foot. Both feet must be active! If only one foot is active, the skier is out of balance: When one foot moves, the other has to move too.<<<<
Both feet are active? Is not the skier out of balance if only one foot moves? Think about a bicycle. Are both wheels active or does only one steer and one is passive. Think about a car, the rear wheels are passive and the front wheels steer. Lets get the analogy closer, a bulldozer, the inside track locks up (active) while the outside tread continues to roll passively. What about a train of wagons? Ever see one, when you have multiple steering (active) points the things steer all over the road and you have low stability (balance). When one foot moves, its true, the other must too but is it the result of moving both feet or one and the other foot follows? Passive and active.

>>>Nord asks about scissoring if you tip and guide the inside before the outside. If there is a lag, you will obviously get that effect.<<<
Again, jump outside the box. Are we to assume guide means moving the inside foot forward? A bulldozer locks up the inside track. Isn't that the same as holding the inside foot back at turn initiation? Guide can mean back as well as forward.

>>>My goal is to move through an imaginary line exactly between turn 1 and turn 2 in perfect neutral, all the dials at zero, and to dial in the next turn from the inside out, but with both edges describing the turn arc simultaneously.<<<
Are you sure? or should you be anticipating with different movements ahead of the next turn? If so, the why would everything necessarily be neutral?

>>>I go to both left edges when I want to go left. I go to both right edges when I want to go right. Why make it more complex than that? <<<<
Its not necessary to make it more complicated than that in teaching but, IF IT IS more complicated than that for real, I want to know about it so I can simplify explanation and get correct movements. As an inventor, I get outside the box and assume nothing. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #30 of 43
Pierre,

I feel like my post touched a few buttons.

I guess by "passive" that you mean "the one that does not move first." To me passive is inert. Maybe we only need to clarify what our terms mean.

I find it helps to call the outside ski the YANG and the inside ski the YIN. One is for force and the other is for finesse.

My intent is to execute a left turn by engaging the left edges as close to the tip as possible. If I stop to analyze if I "lift and tip" my inside ski first I have just stopped doing it--I have moved out of the present moment and stopped to watch myself.

Somehow I think that is going to affect the quality of the kinetic chain, which will affect balance.

The way I understand our dialog is that it is between a scientist and an artist. You are a scientist, Pierre. You take an analytical approach to the world. "How are things different or distinguished from other things?"

I am an artist. I naturally am drawn to bring disparate elements into harmony, or synthesis. It's how I approach the world. "How are things the same or how can we tie them together?"

I'll bet you use contrast and comparison to make your points.

I'll bet I use metaphors and analogies.

It's okay that we have different approaches, and I can understand why you would find my approach "simplistic" while I find yours "complicated."

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 18, 2002 11:43 AM: Message edited 1 time, by nolobolono ]</font>
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Balance, a spin off of the Great Quiz thread.