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Who here double pole plants?

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
I was just woundering if any instructors or free skiers have added the double pole plant to their bag of tricks? For those of you that don't understand a double ploe plant, it's planting both poles at the same time instead of just one.

If yes, where did you pick it up? Racers at your mountain, TV, race training, etc...

Also, in what situations do you use it?

post #2 of 30
In the lift line to slow down od stop...
post #3 of 30
I see hacks in bumps using double pole plants. Very poor technique.

Maybe in racing a double pole plant has use - don't know about racing.

But in skiing, I think it's poor technique.
post #4 of 30
Thread Starter 
NordtheBarbarian, why do you say that double pole planting is old school? Do you think that a single pole plant offers more than a double? SCSA, in the moguls I agree it's bad technique, but for free skiing? What's your reason?

post #5 of 30

I don't really have a reason other than I've never seen anyone who I consider to be great doing it.

When was the last time you saw a great skier doing a double pole plant while free skiing? Or an instructor? I've never seen it.

It's poor technique. Lose the thought of double pole planting.
post #6 of 30
Thread Starter 
I've competed against and free skied with some of the best racers in the country and believe me double pole planting is alive and well. My questions were not to ask whether or not I should do it. I do do it. I do it well and there is a specific purpose for it. I'm not saying it should be done all the time, no, there is a time and place for it,though.

I guess I was just asking if anyone else out there in the Barking Bear forums, on occation, uses a double pole plant and if yes, for what purpose?
post #7 of 30
Last year, if I remember correctly, there was an epicski thread about some younger US instructors trying to follow an older, well-seasoned european instructor all over creation. The old guy would occasionally throw in a super smooth double pole plant (gelandesprung (sp?)) to get over partially submerged fences, etc.

I've tried a couple of mini-ones at speed only a couple of times in recent years (bad right wrist), but when done nonchalantly like its an everyday part of your skiing, it looks super cool and definitely attracts the attention of the kids. I wouldn't be surprised to see the park crowd start to pick up on the move in low-end, retro sort of way.

Tom / PM
post #8 of 30
I think that I have to agree with SCSA here. Double pole plants appear to be superfluous. Looking cool or retro does not seem to be a good enough reason to use it.

CERA F, for what purpose do you use a double pole plant? :
post #9 of 30
My standard technique. Slalom, GS when its ugly, OB very steep terrain. GSing through bumps. Summary: when it's tough, double pole. Single pole: dog bumps, some SL & GS. No pole: very fast, very easy, or flat.
post #10 of 30
The double pole plant is a useful drill. I picked it up from a clinic with the D Team trainers. It helps get you more forward, and also helps find the neutral position between turns by being more square to the skis. I recently did it in another clinic where we were skiing crud bumps. The objective was to stabilize the upper body and discourage upper body rotation.

I consider it a drill, and I wouldn't use it in free skiing, but I met someone who skied bumps that way who said he picked up the habit at Mad River Glen a long time ago. In that respect, maybe its old school, but still useful as an exercise.
post #11 of 30
ceraf I have seen double pole plant become very popular technique used in slalom I believe became very pop0ular when the slovinians (sp) ruled the the world cup slalom events starting about 6 years ago and than for a couple of years and was used in steep sections of race course. I think it really keeps shoulders down the course.
I picked it up from both my boys and watching training ( j2 j3) and every once in a while will thryow it in. some of the racers I see use it would ski most skiers off the mountain
any where any place.so I dont think it has to do with ability just prefrence. And it not something they do always just throw in once and awhile
post #12 of 30
Sorry SCSA, I disagree. : I use double pole plants at times. Not often, but at times...

If you do them right, it's a great quick stabilizing move before going down the hill. I use it most when I GS through the bumps, or I'm flying through crud and weird snow.

Setting up for a leaper in the bumps, aircarving over a nasty hole is a perfect example.

If you do them wrong, then they are silly, just like regular single pole plants gone wrong.

I learned them first dabbling with racing in the early 80's, and was reminded of them training at Breckenridge with some of the strongest teraain skiing examiners and trainers.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 20, 2002 03:42 PM: Message edited 1 time, by SnoKarver ]</font>
post #13 of 30
I use a double pole plant to rest on them when I'm tierd.
post #14 of 30
I have to admit that I have used a double pole plant at times. I don't think that I have done it intentionally, it just happens when I find myself falling back and uphill in the steeps. It gets me forward and moving downhill again. Hey, no harm, no foul the rhythm is reestablished and I don't have to have a cold, white lunch.

Is it centerline or a widely accepted technique? I doubt it, but who cares?
post #15 of 30
Since I did a few race clinics with the Ski Club Vail guys (ex US team)this year I have been working on double pole plants as part of the whole short carve ski race technique. Excellent practice for hip projection, turn initiation, two foot edge change timing practice. As I do not come from a race background it feels really weird and still neeeds lots of work BUT when I do them right it sure is powerful.

I have been known to use double pole plants in tight situations skiing all mountain and clearing holes, rocks, chute sides and huck take offs etc

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #16 of 30
The double pole plant is a very usefull tool, especially with todays radically shaped skis. I think the skis today have much more release and snap coming out of the turns, that a double pole plant can be extremely useful. Doing the tecnique forces the skier to be forward on his/her skis, keeping them more balanced and in the end getting more out of the ski. I do it free skiing when i notice myself getting thrown back onto my tails. I make sure i can see both of my hands in front of me and use to flicking of the rists to initiate the next turn. I also find the same problem in a race coarse; especially slalom. Double pole planting forces you to stay forward and ultimatley allows you the time to set up for the next gate.(...i mean, its like a dommino affect. Double pole plant- forward on skis/not sitting on your tails so your late- then gives you optimal time to begin next turn.) That may have been hard to understand. I'm just trying to get across the fact that double pole planting in a slalom or GS coarse can't really hurt you.
post #17 of 30
I never double pole plant. I don't like the feeling of it, although I thought it was cool when I was a kid.

I think, though, that there are situations where it is useful in challenging skiing--race courses and steeps. And then only in the situation where there is a huge balance chalenge to the torso.

A single pole plant stabilizes the torso and gives you a feel for the snow when you are crossing over to the new edge. A double pp does more of the same and implies the body needs extra stabilization.

I never use it, because I'm so inherently stable. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 21, 2002 05:02 AM: Message edited 1 time, by weems ]</font>
post #18 of 30
I find that I often unconciously do it when I doing aggressive carved GS or longer turns, especially on steeper terrain. In such it feels powerful and effecient.

It is of course not new, its been a long utilized tool. It is quite universally seen in National Team level racing.

The "plant" part of it is irrelevant, the pole swing is what tends to enhance the movement of the entire body down the hill and towards the center of the new turn. Or often not even any real movement is at the root of its assistance at all, rather being just psychologically useful in helping focus on the *attack* in aggressive and on the edge skiing.
post #19 of 30
I picked it up watching the TV, I think it was Urs Kaelin who "introduced" me to that.
I use it, very rarely, on steeps.
post #20 of 30
I us the double pole plant a fair amount while telemark skiing but seldom when alpine skiing.
post #21 of 30
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lbrother1:
The double pole plant is a very usefull tool, especially with todays radically shaped skis. I think the skis today have much more release and snap coming out of the turns, that a double pole plant can be extremely useful.

You must be kidding. If anything makes the double pole plant outdated, it must be shaped skis. Assuming that you stay forward, and have good technique, the double pole plant is hardly necessary.

I think Todd's explanation of its occasional use makes most sense.
post #22 of 30
Double pp is a great way to introduce pole timing, especially with kids and less athletic adults. Do a series of double pps, then have them do one only (I find guided discovery is a good way for the skier to find which pole is the planting pole in a turn--planting the inside pole works better, but this natural fact is more likely to be learned through contrast/comparison than through instruction).
post #23 of 30
doesn't this question belong in the Telemark/Pinner forum?

heh heh heh
post #24 of 30
I was recently at Jackson Hole and took a ski lesson there. I was working with the instructor on keeping my upper body down the fall line on steeps. He suggested the use of the double pole plant as a drill to help instill the feeling of keeping the upper body down the fall line. It was helpful in establishing this "feel". I am currently working on improving my bump skills. I have been using the double pole plant drill here as well. It has proven to be a great tool in developing my ability and discipline in keeping both shoulders and arms down the fall line and out in from of me. My inclination in the bumps is to hold back and not commit fully to the zipper line. With the double pole plant, I can discipline myself to stay down the fall line and the poles also help intially with balance. I think it is an excellent training tool to develop the proper
"feel" of fall line skiing.
post #25 of 30
I use a double pole plant in GS because I caught my self skiing a little static. I use it as a kind of slow grow to make sure I am moving out of my turn.

I sometimes use a single pole plant in glades or bumps for timing. Other then that I use no pole pant what so ever. There is no time in Slalom.

I think any pole plant is focused on too much by instructors, simply because it makes your skiing look pretty. Given it has some applications, but I think that too often a pole plant is taught simply for the sake of a pole plant, with out any underlying purpose.
post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 

I kinda agree with you. What a lot of people here are getting at is that although double pole planting might be an effective drill it doesn't "look good" or it's "not pretty." When done correctly and the skier is confident with it it makes for some very powerful skiing.

"Old school" or "Retro", come on. Double pole planting has been around for some time now and it has never gone away. It hasn't made a resurgents, it's been here, maybe more pronounced at high level racing.

As for balance it's great. It helps reduce up and down upper body movements. It works really well in SL and in GS. SG and DH don't require much for pole planting.

post #27 of 30
I use it when skiing in very steep terrain when i am not sure of what's coming ahead. i find that it stabilises me and also puts me in a position to jump or jump-turn if necessary. i skied in one of the doug coombs steep camps a while ago and they encouraged this technique as useful in certain situations. the whole idea that any particular technique is "old school" or outdated is pretty stupid. i think that if you ski all over the mountain you find yourself requiring all sorts of techniques, carving, skidding etc...
post #28 of 30
I had a clinic with a trainer who suggested making your very first turn/plant a double pole plant. I think it wakes you up a little bit and focuses you. As for normal skiing I'll throw it in once in a while. Maybe just to help get forward or just to play around. Usually though as Todd was saying I use it a lot for agressive slalom type turns with short slalom skis.

I remember several years ago reading something about teaching at Taos and how they'd teach a double pole plant on steeps. This was in the era of Tomba and they were also teaching wider stance skiing. I believe it was still before shaped skis were widespread.
I never figured out why a double pole plant is better on steeps, it seems harder and I can't say I ever use it there. Do both poles get planted below the downhill ski on steeps?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 26, 2002 02:25 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Tog ]</font>
post #29 of 30
I watched a guy double pole plant his way down a black bump run. This was true double pole planting! I'd never seen anything like it. He was doing well, although it looked, um, "different".

I think he was using his poles to control his speed and keep his upper body squared. Seemed to work for him. I think it was a crutch, though.
post #30 of 30
Anything can be seen as either a "crutch" or a "tool". Weighting both skis instead of one, leveraging the skis fore or aft using the boot cuff . . . etc. Some movements are more or less effecient that others, but the definition of crutch vs. tool is one more of the realm of symantecs and opinion.

I don't find that double pole plants in the moguls are smooth for me. Short swing turns period seem hindered by the movement. Though short *carved* turns often seem enhanced by it. More than a few short carved turns in a row in the moguls however would result in fantastic speeds, with spectacularly unhappy results most most likely!

But if somebody finds that using a double pole plant in the moguls is a useful tool for them, more power to them! I do find that free-heeling in the moguls I do really need a double pole plant.

We should also be aware that there is a difference between a pole "plant" - which is often a blocking, adrupt and ineffecient movement - and a pole "touch" or "reach" in which the poles are not used for mechanical force on the ground at all, only as a movement enhancement and timing tool.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 26, 2002 04:14 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Todd M. ]</font>
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