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A note for my on-line pals - Page 4

post #91 of 167

What do I teach?
post #92 of 167
Thread Starter 
Rick H,

You're the man!

If there wasn't Uwe, I'd have my boy, "SCSA's boy", ski with you.

Not sure if we'll be up there to Sol Vista though. SCSA's boy needs to start when SCSA does, so I'm going to ask Uwe to meet us Loveland for a couple of days to get SCSA's boy off on the right foot for the season.
post #93 of 167
If there were more Joan Rostads in the world, not just in skiing, arguments such as this would be irrelevant in any industry.

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill...

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #94 of 167
John H:

This is where the conflicts come in. PMTS is not just a series of lessons. The books available for the public are not what PMTS is about. It is about teaching in a different manner than what was available to the skiing public in the past. It is determining the students motivations and satifying those motivations. It is understanding what the student understands and creating new understanding through movement. It is creating new motivations through movements and understanding.

It is teaching at a higher level. I have not seen this very often outside PMTS. Moreover, the PMTS instructor must understand the biomechnics involved in skiing so that he/she can determine how the student is moving and why the student is doing particular things. This is a very important aspect of teaching. Is this a "teaching model?" I would think so. During accreditation, the candidate must show an ability to teach; not just demonstrate a series of movements.

Take this post for instance. You have stated that you don't think PMTS is a system. Your motivation is that you disagree with PMTS and you are defending ATS. My motivation is the I see a person who, I think, does not understand PMTS and I wish to create an understanding with you. So, I explain the aspects of PMTS to you. Whether you accept my explanations is up to you, as it would be with any student. I present the "what, why and how," to you and it is now up to you to accept or reject what I have presented.

I have to disagree with you on one point; PMTS teaches the fish to swim.

RH<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Rick H (edited June 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #95 of 167
Thread Starter 

Who's Joan Rostad and how do I find out more information about her?
post #96 of 167
Cool story.
Joan Rostad hosts a site. www.hyperchangecafe.com

I teach people to have more fun on the slopes, primarily by improving their skiing skills. This is not always accomplished with a set of tasks or a progression of movements. Sometimes it merely involves helping a person change their perspective, or believe in themselves more. It always involves showing that person they own what they have done, and they get the credit for doing it.

Your last description of what PMTS is looks exactly like what ATS is(generally).
We assess each student in terms of desires, goals, needs, fitness, activity level, attitude, etc., etc. We utilize service guidelines, biomechanic and technical knowledge to formulate a plan for that individual.

Part of ATS are 'common skill features' and efficient movement patterns. These are ideal body movements and ski behaviors we coach our clients to use.

I haven't read PMTS itself, though I have seen videos and read some of Harb's stuff. I use many of the tasks and movements he does, as have many instructors for years.

ATS neither advocates nor decries a direct to parallel approach. Aside from that, the main difference I see between the two is one of marketing. People like to think they can walk into a store and buy a product. Hmmm, I think I will buy a parallel turn today... ATS in not marketed, and is not 'a way to ski.'

Developing new ways to teach is what the National Team does. They travel the world and interact with National Teams from other countries. They travel around the country teach people to elevate their skiing and teaching skills.

In spring 2000, Swiss National Team Members were invited to coach at the PSIA National Academy. This happened because of interaction the teams had together. If you want to see a different system, check out the Swiss. They are the Kings and Queens of skill and fun.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Roto (edited June 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #97 of 167
Sit tight Roto,
Regarding "the book"
There have been 2 reviews.

And Todd currently has the expert skier 2 book and will be posting his thoughts soon.
post #98 of 167

I may be convinced that PMTS is actually a teaching system. I must admit that I have heard from PSIA instructors, who said they have seen the material, that it is not. However, they may not have seen the proprietary material. I have obtained the proprietary material and give it it's fair share of attention. So until I get a chance to read/view it, I'll refrain from making assumptions of PMTS until I read the book and see the video. However, I would suggest that others (and you know who you are) do the same when busting on PSIA. I just don't know how long it will take me to read it. I'm busy as hell at home with the new baby. Maybe I'll bring it to work since it's slow around here.
post #99 of 167
Thread Starter 

I checked out some articles by Megan Harvey. Isn't she on the Demo team? Is the demo team as good as it gets?

It was all so vague - no details of anything, "Think of your body, going down the hill..." Here's this woman on the demo team writing an article that others are supposed to learn from. I read the article three times and I still had no idea what her movements were.

Is this is as good as it gets...man, oh man.
post #100 of 167

I skied with her for a few runs, and with her identical twin, Katie, for a week, in Dec '99. They rip! And they are excellent teachers. When you read articles like that, they are addressing the mental aspect of skiing, which, as has been recently discussed, is half the battle. Once you get into the upper expert levels, telling you to "lead with the inside foot" is pretty useless. Especially in something like a published atricle, which will be read by everyone.
post #101 of 167
JohnH and SCSA
When I read Megan and Katie's stuff as well as the other articles from the demo team, A lot of it clicks. Sometimes I have to be on the slope thinking about it and sometimes I have to "try it" on dry ground but like JohnH said, part of it is the mental aspect.
post #102 of 167
Thread Starter 
Todd is reviewing "2" and that's great.

But I wonder if he can be objective. As I understand it, Harb called him the equivalent of a "ski industry nobody". And, we all know the disdain he has for the man.

I mean, I can call Harald on the phone and call him a pri**. Then he calls me and calls me and arrogant ahole. Then I take my boots to him and he fixes me up - then we slug each other. I may not agree with how he does things, but I have immense respect for the man.
post #103 of 167
Thread Starter 
JohnH and dchan,

Fair enough.
post #104 of 167
Well there is a clarity to the pmts that is admirable and yes, I think somewhat lacking in psia. But here's the thing. Pmts is the product of one person so that really keeps it on track. While book one blows, hh's instructors manual is good. Psia needs such a focused educational material but I don't think there's the structure to produce it. Volunteers with oversight by commitee I don't think will give it to you. (if that's the process)
post #105 of 167
Did you check out the link to the Mission, Vision,....Strategic Intent 2002 article? It has a link to the Mission/Vison Statement. It addresses some of the ideas you presented on the C-line thread. A guest web site, an action plan, etc. www.psia.org/WhatsHot/vision2002.html (article) www.psia.org/WhatsHot/images/psia_aasi_vision2002.pdf (document)

As good as it gets? If it's on paper it can't be as good as it gets. No matter how good an article is, skiing is better.

I have read some of the Harveys' articles, but don't recall them. I have a tough time with ski related articles, even though I am a voracious reader. I have read some good ones, but honestly if the article doesn't have me after the first paragraph I start to skim, then move on altogether.

Many of them are so looong. Ski education writers so often try to fit in way too much information. I like the KISS method..
I appreciate the passion with which many of them try to get their concepts and points across, but more often than not something gets lost between the snow and the paper. Like diversity, I like passion with a point.

Something else...we PSIAers identify learning styles as we teach, and adjust our teaching to the styles at hand. The simplest example of learning styles is this list:
It is possible that Megan falls primarily into one category and you in another. The way the two of you process information could be different whether it is going in or out.

I have skied with several D-Team members. I have had a great time and benefitted from it every time. I like my skiing and teaching concepts on the snow. I am a DOER, and have been referred to as the worst clinic participant in the world (I tend to slip away and practice stuff if the group talks to much...is that bad??). I also like my fun meter high...clinic leaders who like to talk often get frustrated with me.

As writers go I like Ellen Post Foster. Former D-Teamer, freestyle champion, Ski racer, U.S. Ski Coaches Association examiner among other things I'm sure. Skiing and the Art of Carving is one of her books. She tends toward the specific. She does refer to the Wedge(to SCSA's chagrin)though. She has a host of other books out there.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #106 of 167
Roto, interesting that you are a "Doer", but your explanatory style is amazingly clear. I have been feeling frustrated at the fact that because I have not skied since mid April, the technical conversations are going right over my head. Odd, because my own background is technical and biomechanical. But I guess skiing is a new enough sport for me that the technicalities of it ecscape me if I am not able to put them into action.

But as I've said a few times already, everything you have said or described so far is amazingly clear.

Regarding Ellen Post Foster: I understand she has a conditioning book. Have you read it?

Then I saw my reflection on a snow covered hill.....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #107 of 167
Right on Roto.

I HATE standing around. We can yack on the chair rides.

I like the rhetoric that's happening, and I
DO believe that the instructor/guest is relationship is the core here. Like the Graphic.

Now, if the points on the triange get with the program, we'll start seeing some change.

It would nice to make a decent living at this stuff. Id rather do what I love, you know!

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver <A HREF="http://communities.msn.com/SnoPeople

" TARGET=_blank>http://communities.msn.com/SnoKarver

post #108 of 167
Thread Starter 

Thanks for links - nice job. I read the statements. I'd call 'em an outline of ideas. But if that's an improvement, let's look at it as half-full, eh?

I've said it before, seems part of the problem is the non-profit. Nobody does anything good for free - just how thangs are.

Where you at, anyway?

You and MarkMark need to move out here so you can ski more. Lotsa fitness stuff going on along the front range. All kinds of high tech stuff too.
post #109 of 167
Lisamarie, Ellen has written at least 4 books, Technical skills for Alpine Racing and The Art of Carving, she has also writtern Conditioning for Alpine Racing. They are great...written I belive under the Turning Point Foundation with Allen Schoenburger...available at Amazon.
Roto is right...opportunities to ski with current and former D-Teamers is a hoot. The first time I skied w/Katie and Meagan was at the Nat. Academy in St Anton in 1990, they were very young and quiet...but you could tell great things would be coming! This April I got to ski with Katie again in Mammoth, and laughed about how the years go by...she is now not just a great skier but has blossomed into a consumate clinician!
Ellen and her sister Marion have always been modest and generous in their field. I knew Marion in the old freestyle days, Ellen (and Susie Corrock) were in my II exam in the late seventies and kicked most of the padded boys butts in the timed course!
post #110 of 167

Thanks! I haven't read Ellen's conditioning book I just picked up "Conditioning for Outdoor Fitness" by David Musnick, M.D. & Mark Pierce, A.T.C
It is billed as a comprehensive training guide. What attracted me to it was the sport-specific factor. It has chapters on different sports. Different combos of aerobic, strength, agility, etc. training are selected for the pacing, body positions and movements of each sport. So far it is very cool.
The first 8 chapters cover basic principles!
One is titled Creative use of the Outdoors in Training...the best kind of workouts.
The next 7 chapters cover body regions.
THEN they get to the sport-specific training plans.

I got it @ Amazon
post #111 of 167

I would like to make it too. There are a couple of interesting articles on the hyperchangecafe site. www.hyperchangecafe.com/Practice/samrowan.htm www.hyperchangecafe.com/Practice/samseiler.htm

I would like to know about the Mahre's Legendary Skiing program. I had never heard of it before. In fact, I'm going to post a thread asking about it I'm so interested. The article mentioning it says PSIA did it's darndest to quash it in the name of survival.

Hmmm. If PSIA were given attributes of personification, what would they be?

Here are some funny PSIAisms
Pretty Style, Insufficiant Angles (racers like that one)
Probably Stay Inside Anyway (GORP contingent fave)
My fave? turn it around..
*******s In Strech Pants.

Now for PMTS!

SCSA, I'm in Seattle. The city to beat Denver out as the skiingest. If I had roots (AF brat) they would lie in a less crowded place, but alas, I too have an ex, and she has my son. I gotta stay close.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #112 of 167
Oh, I love
"Pretty Style, Insufficiant Angles"
Cracks me up! My favorite for years!

But I consider myself more of a trees and bumps skier than a racer... LOL!

Thank you for bringing the hyperchange cafe to our attention here. Spent hours catching up.

The Mahre's have a program at Keystone: http://www.keystone.snow.com/e.skiing.mahre.asp

From what little I know, certain experienced instructors at Keystone have become involved with the program.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver <A HREF="http://communities.msn.com/SnoPeople

" TARGET=_blank>http://communities.msn.com/SnoKarver

post #113 of 167
Roto, I'm not sure but I think Todd has taken the Mahre program. I know he quotes them. If I say something feels "different" he says "If it doesn't feel strange, you didn't change". The fact that he can turn the "strange" into the "intrinsic" is another story, but he does use the Mahre quote.

Re: your ex, that's always an issue. My husband's ex took the kids to Boca Raton {UGH!} when they were quite young. Getting to see them was always a challenge. Sometimes ya gotta make your choices.

SCSA, you weren't around when Mark had his incident with altitude sickness at a Java conference at Keystone. Hooked up to an oxygen tank for 3 days. He can't even say Colorado without feeling out of breath.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited June 29, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited June 30, 2001).]</FONT>
post #114 of 167
Thread Starter 

The angle on PGA versus the organization (I may start calling the whole thing a "gang") was creative on SCSA's, "why are there so many crappy skiers" spiel.

But it's not the same...

You go to a golf course and there's one pro, right? Some ski areas have hundreds of instructors.

Like I said, it's a pretty good angle, and I get it...but it's not the same business case.

Rob Decostella. Are you talking about the ex-marathoner?
post #115 of 167
Mark's doing well.
Yes De Costella the marathoner. BTW , he was quoted by Chip Richards {who I believe is on the Colorado Freestyling team?} in a ski fitness article.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #116 of 167
Roto, Bob Barnes, author of the book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing", and an active member in this forum, was a coach for the Mahre Training Center at Keystone for many years before he moved to a supervisory position at Copper.

He can tell you what is what.... ...Ott
post #117 of 167
Wow. Thanks Bob

I was almost duped into believing the Legendary Skiing program was a Mahre product. Funny how so many PSIA detractors are grinding a personal axe because they felt slighted when someone tried to tell them the truth! I'm now sorry I supplied a link to that article without prior research. In my experiences, the brothers' involvement has always been more than welcome.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #118 of 167
Thread Starter 
Okay, so SCSA says Robin and Roto are groovy. Definitely PSIA knuckleheads though

So in about a month, it'll be less than 90 days to skiing in Colorado. Can't wait to get it going...Gonna be some good stuff going on.
post #119 of 167
Thread Starter 

MarkMark's (it's a computer geek thing) feeling well, isn't he? If that's too personal..
post #120 of 167
Thread Starter 

On the HH versus the A frame boys, you're not comparing apples to apples. The A frame boys had like...50 people interested in what they were doing. Brand x has thousands.

Now I'm coming right at you guys. This one could top the charts.

Here's what it comes down to. SCSA has been around for 2 years and has figured it all out. You said it yourself.

You've basically admitted that SCSA is right. That this whole ATS Centerline thang -this mythical thang - that only exists in theory, and in maybe a few lines of text, that is the foundation of the gang, needs to be trashed. That gang members have no clear teaching system - haven't had for years, if ever.

So, here's what SCSA thinks. Since there's no clear teaching system, all that's really left to teach skiers is wedge turns, which BTW, SCSA admits that gang members have been doing really well for years now.

There's nothing to thrash. How could you throw away something that never existed in the first place?

It's no wonder there's so many skiers stumbling around the slopes with no clue.

Here's SCSA' advice - get a system! But wait! Don't do anything - no changes are needed! You all are creating lotsa skiers that'll need to be "fixed". Then, when I start my, "SCSA became an expert and so can you" program, I'll have lotsa customers.

ha ha ha. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited June 30, 2001).]</FONT>
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