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A note for my on-line pals - Page 2

post #31 of 167

I work at a resort with 175 full or part-time folks and I don't know of any high school dropouts on our staff, much less "many" high school dropouts.


post #32 of 167
Pierre eh!

I'm good friends with a woman who is a level 1 at Eldora and took a PMTS clinic this spring at Loveland. She is a bright woman with graduate degrees (not a high school dropout as many of us are). She sings the praises of PMTS. She feels as though it has helped her skiing and will help her teaching.

I haven't posted for a while and I couldn't sit idly by while Paul talks about how we teach turns and someone else talks about education levels among instructors.
post #33 of 167

Something that SCSA and others are missing is that many ski instructors are high school dropouts looking for a free
pass. So what do you expect

You might want to end your query with a question mark.
post #34 of 167
Thread Starter 
Hi Rusty,

Tell me where I can find this research. I looked on the PSIA web site, reading some of the articles posted by demo team members and that's where I came to my conclusions. Also, from talking to Snokarver.

As you know, I've now changed my tune. I'm completely in agreement with Pierre as to his personal assesments of "the man".

I mean, I'm so upset at the guy I can't even write his name or mention his product. I just call it brand x. The man has an uncanny ability to drive "friends" away - in droves. Anyway, that's an off-line discussion.
post #35 of 167

The Association of PMTS Direct Parallel Instuctors, (www.PMTS.org)Has three levels of accreditation, Green, Blue and Black.

Green accreditation requires the candidate to ski parallel throughout the accreditation clinic (4 days). The skiing must demonstrate clean releasing, transfer and engagement The candidate must pass a written exam on biomechanics, kinesiology and the mechanics of skiing. The candidate must successfully demonstrate teaching skills at blue run level(PSIA teaching levels 1 through 7+). This includes weighted and unweighted releases. Also, the candidate must demonstrate a basic working knowledge of "Student Directed Ski Instruction." SDSI is an interagal element of PMTS. A comparison done by a Mid West examiner said that it is equivilant to PSIA Level II.

Blue accreditation reqiures all of the Green requirements plus fall line blue mogul skiing. Releasing in the bumps may be weighted or unweighted.Teaching is PSIA teaching level 9/10 A refined knowledge of SDSI is required. Blue is equivilant to PSIA Level III. Most level III instructors who take the accrediation are Blue pins.

Black accreditation requires all of the above, plus being able to ski black moguls exibiting weighted and unweighted releases. The Black candidate must have a refined knowledge of SDSI and must demonstrate the ability to carry on multiple "private" lessons. There is no PSIA equivilant, except trainer/examiner. There are not many Black instructors. These people are the best of the best. John Clendenin, former world bump champion, is a Black.

Any level can be a trainer, training other instructors at their skiing level. A trainer must teach at Black level.

As you can see, PMTS instructors must be extremely competent for each level. When SCSA says he can do all of the moves really well, I am quite skeptical. If he is so good, why doesn't he teach? It would pay for his skiing, plus the gratifying feeling of helping others learn the sport.

I hope that I have clarified the PMTS accreditation.


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[This message has been edited by Rick H (edited June 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #36 of 167
Buy Bob's book or get a hold of the PSIA Alpine manual. I think Bob does a terrific job of explaining the centerline concept. Also, he has a few wonderful threads here about his thoughts on wedge turns

My key in teaching all turns is extension. I think it is greatly misunderstood. I will take a LTS student, get them in a VERY narrow GLIDING wedge and get them turning in short order, having shown them extension, and simply walking or standing five feet in front of them and suggesting they point or aim their ski tips at me. It is not a stance or mechanism to brake. I do this in snow clogs not in boots!

Look at the old threads Bob has written about wedge turns. It is a viable way to teach. I also don't want you to think I'm opposed to direct parallel. It is neat to teach extension at the outset because I'm convinced
it is a key move in skiing. It has to be blended with other movements.
post #37 of 167
Thread Starter 
Rick H,

Why don't I teach? I do, but just on the side. When I ski with friends, I show them moves, drills, etc. And, I ski with my son - that's teaching.

And, I don't have the time. I'm ramping up my business. So, my skiing time is just that. I want to go off by myself and just let it rip.

Maybe someday when I'm older...
post #38 of 167

I have discovered during my 66 years that they who talk a good game, can rarely perform.

As for skiing with you; I have nothing to prove or not prove. I think it would be a waste of time.

RH<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Rick H (edited June 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #39 of 167
post #40 of 167

I just looked at your profile and I see that your home mountain is Mt Waterman. When I lived in SCal, I skied there when I played hooky from work. I almost slid into the parking lot from the top of Run #3. Nice little area.

post #41 of 167
Thread Starter 
Add another person to the ever growing list of anti-SCSA. All I can say is that my shrink sure is glad that I hang out here. It keeps him in business.

I wish I knew what it is that I do that turns people away. Oh well.

Say hello to Uwe for me. He taught Chase and I'll be back up there to see him as soon as it opens.

post #42 of 167
Can't say I ever met a ski instructor who was a high school drop out. As a matter of fact, most are highly educated, and many are pretty darn brilliant. As for snowbard instructors... well never mind.

SCSA, I think the problem is that you are trying to preach in the wrong place. The people on this board are recreational skiers or instructors, but very few are actual PSIA hot shots. You've been to the PSIA website. Their forum, while open to the general public, is frequented by people who are quite active in the PSIA, and do have the capacity and authority to make the changes you are speaking about. I don't post there too often, but when I do, they are open and receptive to comments from students. The idea of direct to parallel programs is discussed quite often, and I'm sure they would be excited to hear your perspective. As you know the url is http://www.psia.org. If you click on the forum link, you can register as a guest. Good luck, and let us know how it works out.

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill.....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #43 of 167

I too am curious about your falling out with HH. Please don't keep us in the dark. We have put up with your ups and downs so far and everyone still loves you. It's 90 degrees outside. Give us a break
post #44 of 167
Thread Starter 

I'm glad you asked. I was hoping someone would.

As a highly ethical person, I'll offer this.

As you all know, I skied recreationally until I was about 17. I didn't ski again until last year, 24 years later. When I made the decision to get back into skiing, I contacted Mr. Harald Harb. His system appealed most to me and I wanted to "get off on the right foot".

It wasn't long before I truly fell in love with skiing. As an entrepreneur, I started to think about some business possibilities.

I took it upon myself to explore some business opportunities with Harb Ski Systems - I was looking at diversifying and starting a new business. In doing so, I spent countless hours of my time doing due diligence and engaging directly with Harb.

Last week, I sent Harb an unsolicited email. In it, I capped my research and mapped out a detailed marketing plan. That same day, we had a 3 hour phone call.

In that phone call, it became clear to me that there were significant personal and professional differences. At the end of the phone call I decided that these differences would make it impossible for me consider any opportunity with Harb or Harb Ski Systems, offered, or otherwise.

Obviously, I was extremely disappointed. When you go through something like this and spend the amount of time I did, you feel as though it was a waste of effort.

For me, movies are life. What fits perfectly here is the romantic angle of "That Thing You Do", the story of a one hit wonder band, "The Wonders", from the 60's.

At the end of the movie, Liv Tyler looks at her boyfriend, who was the lead singer of The Wonders, and says to him, "I've wasted a thousand kisses on you!".

Finally, I do see plenty of opportunity. To this end, all the research I did is my personal property and the exclusive property of *****IQ. There is nothing that precludes me from discussing my personal opinions or professional research. But this would be best done off-line.

As always, best to all of you.
post #45 of 167
Perhaps I'm missing something. Doesn't all that come under the heading of nothing ventured nothing gained? He has the product. You had ideas about marketing/expanding the product. You two explored the possibilities and nothing came of it. Perhaps you did a ton of work and Harb has benefited? Isn't that just the way life is?

My question is why be angry? Again, maybe I'm missing something.
post #46 of 167
Thread Starter 

I'll add that a disappointment is only so if there's no lesson or gain.

I learned a lesson and I gained from the experience. You know, things happen for a reason.
post #47 of 167
I can see where you might be frustrated, but since he didn't ask you for a plan...
Kind of like the bodega at the end of my block. I could spend hours developing a "business plan" for them and then go in there and present it but I'm quite sure they could care less.
Of course the "busines plan" really wouldn't be that complicated:

1) Be sure to have bread in stock. People have this habit of liking to use it to make sandwiches, or toast. When there's nothing else to eat at home at least they'll have bread.

2) Because of 1) it's a good idea to have peanut butter. People can live off it. It has a long shelf life so when there's that panic of "There's 3 feet of snow coming!!" people know they can survive. (They just fill the bathtub with water).

3) Due to 1),2) it's a good idea to have Milk on hand at all times. For some reason, people like to drink milk. Nowadays you need to have 1% and skim too. Whole milk they like to use in coffee. This brings up...

4) Have coffee on hand because people like that too. Be sure it's not expired because people in this neighborhood tend to look at things like dates. This brings up...

5) Kudos for stocking eggs but... the cartons are stamped with a date. You're not supposed to sell them after that date. (I know, this is a hassle but they just won't sell) There are two dates, the second says "In NYC..." this date is usually earlier. Yes, I know you think this is unfair and people worry too much about "dates"! The thing is that those in charge of protecting "the public" ( that's your customers. They're the ones who give you money in exchange for items on the shelf) Anyway, those in charge of preventing plagues, disease, and sickness have determined that things should be sold in a certain amount of time. New York has a shorter date because in getting to the store things tend to sit on the sidewalk unrefrigerated. Besides, your customers like to think the things they're getting are at least not going to make them sick. They go elsewhere for super fresh, and they're usually desperate when they buy from you but they'd rather starve then get sick. (yeah I know they're weird...)
This brings up

6) Congrats for not selling meat. This can be dangerous and lead to problems, complaints. (There's also more dates and inspections...) However, I think you could move into those vacuum packed irradiated pre-sliced meats that have a long shelf life. Yes, they have dates but it's not so bad. Just make sure they go directly from the supplier to your refrigerator. Don't leave them on the counter and then go out and have lunch on the sidewalk. Speaking of counters...

7) The fruit on your counters can not have those tiny flies swarming around it. I know, they're really small and it's no big deal, that people always have those things at home on their fruit. What can I say? People are strange. They like to buy the fruit and then have the little flies appear --at their own home-- ! They insist on this. Just like they insist on having their own t.v. and don't share it by watching with their neighbor on the sidewalk. (Yes, I know you do this with yours but not everyone is like you. This is why you need the business plan !) When the little flies appear take it as a sign that that something's rotten and needs to be thrown out or taken to -your- home. Speaking of signs...

8) Signs are important. They tell how much things cost. I know, -you- know how much they cost but your customers don't. Also they explain the rules, such as "No clothes on? - Stay out!!" (I realize the "No shirt, no shoes, No service!" signs are way too tough for your store so I figured we'd start somewhere)

This brings up the concept that if the sign posts a "rule" or a law it needs to be right. A while back I wandered in looking for some bread (you had none) and settled for a quart of OJ. When paying I noticed a hand scrawled sign written on a torn piece of cardboard you must have found in the street. (There was a tire mark along one edge) The sign said in so many words: "No one under 21 can buy cigarettes". Though I don't buy cigarettes, this struck me as odd since I believe the age is 18. When I asked you about it you said, "Oh yeah, my nephew wrote that when he was here last week." You see when you own a business you are responsible for what "the employees" do.

Just because your nephew's cute doesn't mean you have to leave that thing up there like his artwork you tape on the refrigerator at home. See, people are weird. When they see a sign like that which is blatantly wrong they start wondering what else is wrong in the store. This doubt reduces their desire to buy. After a while if the doubt keeps building they just stay away.
Also, since it's not the law, others could get upset. Like the people who make cigarettes. What if I had called them and told them about the sign? Oh, you're right that'd be a problem- for me since you don't have a name to the business and no phone. I'd have to say "that little bodega on the corner of so and so". They'd have to send someone on foot. You're right, that probably wouldn't happen.

You say what's all this signage thing? New York has the worst. I know the road signs are terrible, that you're better off shutting your eyes and guessing when you have a choice of turns on the highway. At least you won't argue with your wife and you can always turn around. I know, New York is going to ban talking on cell phones while driving because it's impossible to talk, drive, and read the signs all at once. While all of this is true, you still have to deal with your store signage because we're not "trying to be the worst" with this business plan.

This "plan" might be tough but I think if you follow these suggestions you could make a little more money. It's just a bad sign for your customers when there's no bread on the shelf, the milk is questionable, the eggs they don't want to look at, there's flies on the fruit, and you're out on the sidewalk sitting at a table playing dominos and watching the Mets on t.v.!

Again, people are weird you just have to accept it, but when they see this they think you don't care. (No, not about the Mets! About your store!)

After this plan, we could think about a name for your store. This way you would become part of the community. Now people have to say "could you pick up some milk at -that bodega- on the corner?". This makes it seem like you're something on another planet. (well...) See people like to have specific names for things. I know, people are weird, they even name their boats, their dogs, and of course their children.

Well, let me know what you think. I just want a loaf of bread and some peanut butter...<FONT size="1">
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited June 26, 2001).]</FONT>
post #48 of 167
You forgot to mention the hydroponic meat.
post #49 of 167
oh no,
Carlos only sells that "under the table" to the finest establishments. You have to start with a name, and a phone. Besides, the Hydroponic Beef is only for restaurants right now because it's still hush hush and in the testing stages. (so be quiet...)
It's doing very well though
post #50 of 167
Thread Starter 
Tog - "Hydroponic Beef" breath.

Hey, if it goes, we can all say we heard about it here first, right?
post #51 of 167

Why come down hard on somebody for giving you their interpretation of PSIA's stuff? Isn't it an opportunity to 'check for understanding?' I find the impression that PSIA advocates moving with the uphill ski first quite logical. Granted, no National or Divisional educators are actively coaching it anymore and neither are the best instructors(a lot of TD's are), but you can still find it all over the place in our written material.

I think one of the problems is that equipment and technique have changed so rapidly, published material hasn't been able to keep up.

It takes time to write, organize, edit and publish, especially when working with groups of people who aren't together all that much. And then, just like the computer age, when the product comes out, it is a product of the past because that is when it was written. The manual(s) we have out there are hopelessly outdated right now.

I am eagerly awaiting the Core Concepts manual. At the heart of the Core Concepts idea is easily updatable material. A 'core' manual with concepts which apply to all disciplines, Alpine/Snowboard/Tele/Skibikes?
is slated for release this summer.
Discipline specific technical manuals will follow.

Hopefully in the (near)future, updating published material will be much quicker since the entire body of Teaching, Service, and Technical information won't have to be rewritten before release. I hope it works.

I also find PSIA bashing pointless and a little humorous.

SCSA, I'll get to you later

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #52 of 167
You could present Tog with a business and marketing plan

{Ducking and running.... YIKES!!!!!!!}

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #53 of 167

You seem to forget that the little bodega (nice vocabulary, by the way. I didn't know that one), isn't really there to sell anything. Just ask his brothers Vinnie, Mario and Tommy. However, they are in the insurance business. Just tell them you own a business down the road, and they'll be happy to offer you protect... I mean insurance for a few hundred a week. If they do, it would be in your best interest to take them up on thier offer. Otherwise you may want to wear shin guards for a while, or you could end up with "Tanya Harding Syndrom" in your knees.
post #54 of 167
This post seemed to go on and on so I had to skim a bit because of time(work) but I would like to add my 2 cents.
1. PSIA does not teach a wedge!!!! Never has and never will!! What PSIA DOES teach is fundamental skills. They teach people how to stand in balance while moving, Roll there skis from edge to edge using the hip/leg/ankle. Teach people to turn there legs, and teach people how to manage the pressure that develops through bending and lengthing the joints like knees, ankles, hips, spine.
2. The wedge is part of the centerline milestones that ssca was looking for. They are only reference points that people pass through at different points in there skiing life. It is just a way to group where people are at that point and time. Reality is even the great skiers will fall back on the centerline at times. IE take away visibilty and change consistancy of the snow and many so called experts will drop down a notch. I for one have fallen all the way back to a wedge during an almost vertigo state.
3. You have to let go of what you have before you can do something new! Meaning you always roll the downhill ski to the new edge to go the other direction. The extension from the old turning ski helps move your CM across and aids in the release.
Thats it. todo
post #55 of 167
Hey in the Urban Legends/Hoax's sites on the net there are two listings under Hydroponic Beef. One relating to "Apple Steak" (apples with the attributes of beef), and one a vegan satire (written to sound real though) about genetically engineered beef that is grown in labs. This Hydroponic Beef has no relation to either does it?
post #56 of 167
Thread Starter 

I ski at Copper, Vail and the The Beav. ABasin, and Loveland. I see 'em teaching the wedge, all day, every day. What's up with that?

Why on earth would you teach someone to move their uphill ski first, when the whole point is to go downhill? Wanna go downhill, the first move should be with the downhill ski.

You two keep saying what's taught, yet I never see it, except a Sol Vista? How come?

If there's one thing that brand x has done, it's to shake up ski instruction. The man has proven that things need to change - big changes folks!

I became a great skier because I practiced "the right" skills. My son will be a great skier for the same reasons. And, he was never taught a wedge turn. My friends kids are already great skiers - they were never taught wedge turns. My son and them were shown the wedge for like 2 minutes -"To slow down in lift lines, do this." That was it.

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[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited June 27, 2001).]</FONT>
post #57 of 167
No need to worry about giving SCSA a hard time. There's a lot of history there with Rusty/SCSA. Believe me, this ground's been covered, but good luck "dealing with [SCSA] later"
Todd, I'm unaware of these hydroponic beef references, where are they? I'm sure their brand isn't as good as my buddy Carlos's. His is here: http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000385.html 6/6 - 10:03 pm
post #58 of 167
Sounds like your friends kids were taught a wedge in the form of a slow down for lift lines. If that's all it takes to be comfortable on skis for them great. Some people need it a little longer. As for PSIA teaching a wedge, PSIA is not a "system" it is an organization that just happens to certify instructors. ATS is the system and it does not have a progression that says the instructors have to teach a wedge either. The wedge and wedge turns are part of the skill set but it's the instructors that take what they know to the hill. If you consider that a great deal of the instructors on the hill are not certified to teach by anyone except the Ski school and are probably not members of PSIA it's kind of hard to justify the sweeping message that PSIA teaches wedge turns. They don't.

As far as the centerline model, it is also a tool for instructors. It too is not a system. If you are truly interested in learning about the centerline model and as you posted before, willing to purchase Bob's book email him. bbrnz@epicski.com I think is the address he posted here. I'm sure he would be happy to sell you a book.
post #59 of 167
Tog, I have an idea for you. You can market your hydroponic beef to ski resorts. Your slogan "Hydroponic Beef; Always Carved, Never Wedged"

Getting, AHEM, serious now. Someone from PSIA has recently spoken of the concept of expanding the function of the organization to go beyond certification and into the realm of sponsoring research, and acting as a gathering point for teaching concepts of many different teaching methods. What do you think of that?

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill.....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #60 of 167
SCSA- Those all are great mountains, that I am sure have some great ski teachers many times the need to have some one stand in a wedge like position for them to be balanced at first is needed as many first time skiers are not always athletic or have past experience in varius sports that help them. However just because they are standing in a wide stance with the ski's angle in to give some edge hold to control there speed and increase there base of support does not mean they are being taught a wedge. Like I said they should be taught how to edge and disengage there edges, turn the legs, balance, and deal with the pressure through flexing and extending. Then the stance will natural arrive at there correct hip width distance as they master these skills. Many people will never need the wedge, some will and others like myself still go back to it to work on fine tuning of skills, like the release move of the old downhill ski. The wedge allows the speed to be slow and forces you to be more precise in your movements and thus increasing your ability. Many that skip this have problems latter on with crud snow, powder, bumps etc.. Because you can't just reley on momentum. The wedge is a tool many instructors may use to get the desired outcome(what the guest wants) This can be as varied as skiing. Some want to go fast some want to go slow, some ski steeps and bumps others never want to leave a groomer, that's were goal setting and working with your client become far more important than what your definition of good skiing is or should be. todo
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