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A note for my on-line pals - Page 5

post #121 of 167

It actually exists in reality as opposed to theory.

Some people are too detached from reality to get it...others are too attached to theory to explain it...and ever the twain shall meet!!

ever being intentional just in case you wondered.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #122 of 167
PSIA or what ever teaching method you use, I think we as instructors have all lost an important factor in teaching someone to ski.Whatever works for the student to help them improve on their sking is what we as instructors should be teaching them. Some students need a wedge to learn, while others can go into paralel turns with very little effort. Our main goal should be to keep skiing fun for all.
post #123 of 167
Nice post. Welcome
post #124 of 167
The Hydroponic beef thing . . . very completely debunked. Folks that are pushing it tend to be the same folks that continue to believe in Multi-level marketing. I'll not waste bandwith with a zillion links. Look it up on any search engine!

Good for a laugh though!
post #125 of 167
Uh Todd, you know I would never say anything sarcastic or offensive to you, but... Tog's whole hydroponic beef thing, is, well, sort of a goof.

Basic rule of reading posts by Tog: Read twice to make sure he's serious. Tog honey, I promise I won't tell them about the Urban Rebounding email!

My city your mountain, stay with me stay....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited July 01, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited July 01, 2001).]</FONT>
post #126 of 167
Ah - I'm surrounded by people who believe in medicines which when analyzed actually don't contain a single molecule of the "active" substance (though I'm sure the placebo effect works for them). I recently did computer work for growing homeopathic company which specializes in 'drugs' that help people loose fat . . . only, everybody in their office is fat! I, like everybody, get bombarded by idiotic get rich quick schemes on the internet. There is a camp up the street of people who are all convinced that they are actually extrateresstrials living in human bodies.

Anyways - with such stuff all around me I get too reactive to it, and in this case didn't spot the humor! Just laugh at me, its what I need!
post #127 of 167

I'm sorry, however, you are mistaken. Most golf courses do not have one golf professional.

In fact, they have a staff and employ as many teachers as there is business. In addition, a golf course in Colorado may do 45k-60k rounds per annum. Breckenridge has that many skiers on a dull weekend. I would suggest the numbers in the golf industry and the ski industry are fairly similar in terms of number of ours instruction given per capita.I would also suggest that it is similar that many folks go it alone and/or learn from a friend/relative as opposed to taking lessons.

Scsa, I have two concerns. Bob B has written a thoughtful thread and you respond with a fairly flippant piece that I would contend makes little or no sense. At times you a very lucid and at other times you seem to be arguing simply for the sake of arguing.

You seem to be cycling back to your original "I'm better than 97% of the population" rant. Who says you have achieved "expert" status. I refer you back to the m.a. that I did and the comments SnoKarver made. You seem to be the only person crowning yourself with the crown "expert". Snokarver and I gave you a different grade.

You also keep attacking PSIA,ATM,centerline, etc. I would hazard to guess you have still not read Bob's text and you have no basis to judge an association.

The PGA has little control over "crappy" (as you term it) golf and neither does PSIA.

The only thing you have become an expert at is divisivness.

Lastly, please accord Bob B the respect he deserves and quit calling him "Barnes".

I still love you, however, you're much more fun when you make some semblance of sense.
post #128 of 167
Todd, do me a favor. If we ever come up to Mount Snow with my stepson, please do not talk about the extra terrestrials. The first time we brought him there, we were staying at a horse farm {Peep Willow} in N.H.

Well the area aound it is totally deserted, and for a Floridian who is always surrounded by strip malls, and watches too many X-files episodes, he was convinced that this was an alien abduction spot.

Then this girl who had been stalking him at his high school in Boca turns up at the Mount Snow lodge.

My city, your mountain, stay with me stay.....
post #129 of 167
He he - I'll remember that! The thing thats most humorous about alien abduction stuff is the total arrogance of it. If such a species existed, and managed to overcome all the laws of physics and travel here within a lifetime . . . why would they care about us?

In an endless universe, it seems unlikely that there is not other life out there. But equally unlikely that any species advanced enough to bridge the huge gulfs of space would have any interest whatsoever in a backwards little species like us!

If we did have anything to offer, maybe it would be music or art . . . maybe (probably not any musicians of the last couple hundred years I suspect . . . I don't think "enimem" is worth traveling 1000 light years for!). I would think that the WWF watching, monster truck driving folks that always claim abduction . . . would be the last people any self respecting aliens would have an interest in! And expend vast energies to travel someplace to "probe" the self-destructive monkeys that we are? Doubtful!


Now how much further away from skiing can we get?! Should we ask AC to add an "Alien Abduction and other Claptrap" forum?
post #130 of 167
Uh, maybe they would want to learn a direct to parallel skiing system?

And once again, DUCK AND COVER!!!!

My city your mountain, stay with me stay....
post #131 of 167
Besides being a wonderful skier and wizard teacher (and teacher of teachers) - Bob is one of the more diplomatic human beings I've ever met.

Anybody who stirs him up like that, probably needs to look carefully at what they are saying . . . or at least *how* they are saying it!
post #132 of 167
I would only like to add that there is a big difference between
"whatever works to help a student improve their skiing"
whatever seems to work to help a student improve their skiing.

Many things that seem to work can lead to barriers later. ATS addresses this (historical) problem and influences teachers to teach with students' futures in mind (Positive Transfer & Common Skill Features. Efficient Movement Patterns also seems well on its way to being incorporated).

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #133 of 167
To All,

I don't think I'm speaking "out of school" and I doubt that this will come as any great revelation, however, the folks at PMTS are tuned in to every word being said here.

Just take my word for it.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just found it of interest. SCSA, is it possible your demeanor here soured any possible business deal with HH?
post #134 of 167
Thread Starter 
Ahh, whatever. There's a message that you just don't get. Why should you? After all, no one is paying you to think.

Back to the cheap seats...
post #135 of 167
Well Rusty Guy,

The fact that Harald and/or Diane would be monitoring this web site and forum for the discussions and arguments about PMTS vs.PSIA I find to be rather interesting.

I would hope and maybe expect that PSIA would also be monitoring as well.

So if they are monitoring , what changes are being made based on some very well written posts that obviously were based in some excellent thought and experience.

PSIA teaching infrastructure exists and PMTS has something to offer. So when are the battles going to end, and the skiing public get the benefits of both approaches to ski instruction ?
post #136 of 167
To All:

I have made several post in this thread. I hope that I have remained a true professional in my demeaner. I don't think that I have bashed anyone or organization. Both PSIA and PMTS have their niche in the ski industry. It is my feeling that we should respect each other's profession and ideology.

I find that most of the bashing comes from people who are misinformed or who don't wish to spend the time becoming informed. This holds true from both sides of the aisle. As the old saying goes, "Walk in the other person's shoes before you cast stones."

There is another thread that has been started that really is offensive. Let us not let this forum deteriate into a major flame war that cannot be stopped. Let us try to keep our section of this forum professional and respectfull of each other's points of view.

RH<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Rick H (edited July 01, 2001).]</FONT>
post #137 of 167
Heres a good alteration to that quote Rick "Always walk a mile in the other persons shoes before you judge them. That way when you do . . . you're a mile away and you have their shoes!".

Seriously though, as far as the PSIA monitoring this site - they clearly are since many of us ARE the PSIA! The PSIA is not some disembodied organization with henchmen, spies or big bosses who make the decisions. The PSIA is made up of its members, and many of us here are voting members, and also instructor trainers and such. So of course, the PSIA IS watching!
post #138 of 167
Unless those shoes are the funny named Italian shoes that O.J. was wearing that fateful night in June 1995!

post #139 of 167
If you noticed, I posted some PSIAisms as well, I can't remember which thread. All in good fun rather than any kind of flaming war. Hopefully everyone's aware of the humor rather than any intention to actually impugn.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #140 of 167
Rick H
I have found your posts both enlightening and informative. Also very professional.
Thank you for it all...
post #141 of 167
Roto, since I have been an active member of PSIA, I have always loved our own self-deprecating humour. "probably stay inside anyway" etc. We tease each other concerning those steriotypes...standing on the side of a hill in clumps, drawing in the snow with our poles...leaning against barstools, or demonstrating "fulcrum" vs. "rotation" vs. "counter-rotation" while standing on the stools (thanks Bob). Ski School culture is fun...check out Spags post about Hot Dog! So when some self appointed "Nobian" disses about stretch pants...I actually enjoy the humour! Face it we can be pretty silly people! I wouldn't have it any other way!
post #142 of 167
Rick H,

I agree and that is why I took the time to go ski with SCSA and to learn a little something about PMTS.

I have a good friend whom I run with four days a week who is a level 1,and has taken the intro PMTS course (I'm sorry that I forget what "level" she calls this). This is a bright, talented woman who has a both undergraduate and graduate degrees and simply loves to teach any subject. She is very high on PMTS and in fact just spent the day doing alignment work with those folks.

I know you weren't suggesting that I was bashing PMTS or SCSA. As I have stated before ,I think I've been his biggest supporter. I guess I feel I have invested enough time with the guy that he has to take the good and the bad from me, if I'm going to engage in meaningful dialogue. If I do otherwise I would suggesat it is tantamount to lieing.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Rusty Guy (edited July 01, 2001).]</FONT>
post #143 of 167


Ahh, whatever. There's a message that you just don't get. Why should you? After all, no one is
paying you to think



If that was meant for me I simply have to say I don't have the foggiest idea what you are trying to say. I realize I'm not the brightest guy in the world (in fact 97% of the population is in fact smarter than I am)however please give me some idea what you are trying to say

If you weren't talking to me I'll crawl back into my hole.
post #144 of 167
The PMSTIA Guys are watching!?!?!...ya know this morning, I thought I saw Steve Over fly past in a black helicopter!
post #145 of 167
Rick, I hope you will continue to post, because what you write has always been informative, as opposed to offensive.

For me, personally, I will always choose as Joan says, "the best practices of many theories". This will apply to both my teaching and my learning.

In my professional life, this, ironically, is probably detrimental to my COMMERCIAL sucess. I cannot "productize" my technique, because it is a work in constant progress.
So I will never be Denise Austin. So be it.

I cannot go back in time and wonder what it would have been like to have never learned the wedge. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. What's the use. I will say that I was probably the most fearful person on the mountain, and to this day, if for some reason something frightens me, well, think of your worst teaching nightmare, magnify it 10 times, well, that's me. So, having the wedge in my tool box is probably a good thing.

I was impressed with Rick's description of the early training in boots only. I think learning the mechanics of the feet before putting the skis on may in fact be a good idea.

My city your mountain, stay with me, stay.....
post #146 of 167
Last night I noticed some shady characters in Silver Creek Baseball hats and Manta Ray glasses casing me in the bar. They followed me into the alley and a brief conversation ensued in which none of us understood the other as I am only capable of speaking PSIA tecno-babble and these guys a strange language they referred to as layman.

Their intentions became apparent when they pulled electrified scott poles out from under their descente coaches coats.

A brief chase ensued and they just "couldn't hang". It was the turns (it was twisting alley)) that got them. They were curious, as I had time to look over my shoulder several times despite my haste.
Passive direction changes they seemed to have to coax along...phantom-like, if you will...

This morning, when I awoke and played my daily self-destructing PSIA mission statement I was rudely surprised. The message was garbled, and I could only make out some faint references to suspension of all student-centered operations, black ops, and pacification training. After the curious Beck-like auditory mishmash, my memory eludes me and I was just faxed a one-way ticket to some remote Utah desert airport on an Airlines I've never heard of before..Evergreen... I don't know when the next time I will be able to post will be, but I will try to keep you informed. I can't seem to shake this starry-feeling, and my decisions seem to make themselves..

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Roto (edited July 01, 2001).]</FONT>
post #147 of 167
Roto, you are too much. If I ever rode a chairlift with you, I would probably fall out from laughing so hard. Thank You!

Did you ever work for National Lampoon? MAD Magazine? You sound like a gonzo journalist to me! Hmmm, mebbe in the Car and Driver editorials... lmao

Hmmm, I hope THEY are ALL watching. Some very interesting things are happening here.
Every single one of us is a drooling idiot about skiing. Shows, doesn't it?

And so many of us are teachers. Wow.

But please, this is a Free and Open Forum, within the limits of AC's rules and recommendations. Which are perfectly appropriate.

The nyaa nyaa stuff is boooring. Has no objective or "meat" to it.

But ahhh, satire.... Thanks again Roto!

Once again, attending PMTS training with an open and curious mind was a real eye-opener for me. I learned a lot, and can hardly wait to teach again. Go if/when you are ready.

It's good to feel that way about a job, isn't it? LOL!

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver <A HREF="http://communities.msn.com/SnoPeople

" TARGET=_blank>http://communities.msn.com/SnoKarver

post #148 of 167

I don't have much time. I managed to convince the drill instructors to allow me to visit the honeybucket..it's a good thing I had the faculties to bring along my handy butt pilot so I could access the wireless web from this place...it's so strange...some kind of aircraft graveyard...but these Evergreen Planes just keep coming and going...
I don't know what they are up to here. There is some talk of covert operations and infiltration. The whole show is run by some friendly looking woman everyone refers to as "Junior."
All day they've been drilling us in skiboots without our skis on. Every time we turn our feet they drive us to our knees and shout epithets the likes of which the world has never heard in our faces...But it is so hard to change our instincts we've been developing for so many years. One poor sap was caught standing in a pigeon toed position. They had him flogged and hanged as an example to the rest of us. "Junior" herself astride the black stallion they used to string him up.

Just two things before I go...my signature is, after all, HST, the good doctor himself.
I assure you, I have no actual disdain for PMTS. I can't explain it right now... I've got to get back before they come looking for me. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Roto (edited July 02, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Roto (edited July 02, 2001).]</FONT>
post #149 of 167
Yup, Roto, I gotta agree; you do have a bizarre sense of humor. I've seen it before when I lived in Seattle in the late 50's. Must be the humidity. Well, I escaped to LAla Land for the rest of my working days. I worked in the theatre in LA for a lot of years. Talk about a weird group of misfits!!
The only breaks we got were coffee, and not many of those. But it was fun. Without the humor and the bantering, we all would have been committed. We were certifyable anyway.

Pardon my intensity; it sometimes gets in the way.

post #150 of 167
Thread Starter 

Here's an excerpt from an email I sent to BobB.

Hi Bob,

Well, first of all, I do have respect for people like you, who've been in the industry for years. Not because you've been around so long, that means nothing to me. But because you deserve respect. You're making contributions and you really care. So that's great.

But I just hope that people like you, those who've been around a while, recognize the voices, people like me. After all, we don't have anything to refer back to. So, in the case of ski instruction, something that's obvious to us, might not be so obvious to you.

My take on all of this is that the model is broken - I'll never back down from this point of view. I truly believe changes are due. Really, though, what's in it for me? Hey, I just feel that if changes aren't made, we're all going to be paying more to ski. I don't feel that ski instruction by itself is the cause of the ski industry's ills. But, from what I've seen in the past two years, I do feel that the ski school and instruction are key assets to attracting and retaining customers.

I would love to see some independent research done with the goal being to examine ways to attract and retain skiers/riders. I think that the research would prove the importance of the ski school. Then, once everyone knew how important the ski school is, they'd start to focus more of their energy there. Right now, I'm not so sure that executives see the ski school as being that important to the big picture. Do they?

Maybe in the past it wasn't. After all, skiing was much more difficult just a few years ago, wasn't it? If you put me on a pair of straight skis, I'd be lost. But now, with the advances in equipment; shaped skis, alignment, and boots, expert skiing -- defined by Harald or the PSIA, is now attainable for a much broader group of customers. Don't get me wrong, skiing still requires a ton of work and discipline to reach "expert" status. I've worked my butt off and I have an athletic background.

So before, it might have taken me 500 days to get to where I am, instead of 120. That's a huge difference, and, a selling point! This salient point, if I'm right, is cause in and of itself for the industry to take a whole new look at itself. Bob, it could very well be that it's time for an overhaul. If that's the case, so what? It doesn't invalidate the past. It just means what it is - that it's time for a change. What's to overhaul? It could be instruction, the marketing of instruction, the organizational structure, a few things. My professional opinion, as a marketer, is not to single out one aspect and say, "That's it!". It's never that way. I'd look at the big picture.

Look at aerobic sports - running, bicycling, swimming, etc. For years, there was no change. Then all the sudden, triathlons appeared. Cyclists started swimming and runners started cycling. In the mid 80's, triathletes were using aero handle bars, I was one of them. Cyclists laughed at them, said they were a gimmick. You know who Greg Lemond is, right?

In 1989, his second tour, Greg was 2 minutes back from Fignon going into the last day, a 28 mile time trial. No one, thought he could make up the time over that short of distance. Well, Greg shows up with for the time trial with the aero handle bars. He was the only one. Everyone else, including Fignon, had either drop down bars, or bull horn bars - standard time trialing gear. Well, Greg won the time trial. He beat Fignon by 2 1/2 minutes in 28 miles and won the tour by 8 seconds, the closet tour in history. Lemond went on to credit the aero bars for his miraculous performance. Now, Greg was a great time trialist and he probably would have beaten Fignon anyway, but not by as much. The aero bars were truly the difference in him winning the tour.

Aero bars literally rescued a dying sport and gave new life to other aerobic sports. People started doing triathlons, people started buying bicycles again, lap swims became popular again. I also believe that they were the impetus for the advancements in bike technology. Bikes are lighter and faster than they've ever been, mountain biking is popular, technique is talked about more than ever.

I see shaped skis as being the aero bars of skiing. But from what I can see, the ski industry doesn't (you tell me). Now this is where my lack of experience comes in. But when I go to Sol Vista and I see fat ladies skiing parallel in one day, then I go to Copper (as an example) and I see the same fat ladies being taught wedge turns, it kills me! The same with kids. I see kids being taught wedge turns at Copper. I go to Sol Vista and those same kids are skiing parallel in one day. This to me, just says that the industry is killing itself and that there's no hope.

Say what you want about HH and I'll probably agree to most of what you say, but, you can't argue with what's taken place. There are...(lots - hundreds? thousands?) of skiers who rave about his "system". I've talked to at least 50 of them personally. My kid is a shining example. When we ski at Copper, everyone thinks he's been on skis for years. He's skied 15 days. As a business man, I can truly tell you that the proof of concept is there. Look at the book sales, video sales, and testimonials from skiers and instructors. You know, I've yet to hear a negative comment a PSIA instructor that went through the classes. But, I hear lots of negative comments from PSIA instructors who've never been to the classes. Hmm. I know the ski industry has seen it's share of fads, and that it can't/shouldn't overreact. But, again, do a study. I'm sure HH would be more than willing to share his data. Find out if there really is something there.


When I say people don't "get it", here's what I mean. Shaped skis have forever changed things just like aero bars did. Aero bars brought new life to an old sport and new life to other sports! The phrase, "Cross training" came as a result of aero bars. Aero bars gave average athletes some hope - that they too could go fast.

It's the same with shaped skis! With shaped skis, I can be great! Don't you see the message? Reinvent your sport! Cold filtered has been in brewing for years. But Miller was the one who capitalized on it.

They're radically different and so is the technique. But, the industry is still debtating their importance and merit! Still debating about what I've said, and wondering about the technique, years later! It just boggles the mind.

I'm a knucklehead. But to me, it's clear as day. To me, the biggest opportunity in years for them to increase their business is right in front of them and they don't do anything about it.

The bottom line is that if something isn't done to increase skiers/boarders, we're all going to be paying a lot more to ski. That, you can count on, folks!

Is that what you guys want? Instead of arguing and bickering, get your butts out there and learn something new! Bob, take a friggin class and report back to Copper! If it really is great, get on it and do it! Aren't you all supposed to be pioneers? Take it upon yourselves to save this business and to be part of it's growth. Be heroes!

That's it for me. I can't do anything else to describe how I feel - without getting paid for it .

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited July 02, 2001).]</FONT>
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