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Fastest SL skiing in the world: Herbst at Levi - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 That being said, had I a body like Lindsays, I'd look to her for technique.
 

If this was true, then why do we never take this in consideration when we evaluate skiers This is how it goes: A-frame is considered a major flaw and its always fixed with alignment. Applies to Vonn as well.

But guys, I know you rather want to discuss a beatiful girl and how to part her hips than a guy that skis better and faster than you ever will. Get out of the box and stick to the topic. Ive provided lots of picks for you guys to try to figure out or start an own thread....
post #32 of 51
Yep, that's at least one thing I was thinking, too.  We talk constantly about turning. However, in all events except slalom, but especially in speed events, the gliding skills are also very important.  If my inside ski is flat, then maybe I get a little free glide that somebody who has an edged inside ski isn't getting...



Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

The kind of contact with the snow you have is what it boils down to. Whether you have A-frame, back seat or other movement problems is incidental. These things can hurt of course but perfect form doesn't mean fastest time. I've seen some pretty sloppy skiing that was fast. Just watch Franz Klammer in the '76 Olympics. His form was atrocious, but whenever he had his skis on the snow, which was a lot less than others, he wasn't generating any more drag, edge, resistance than was necessary.

I think that Lindsey is A-framing in this sequence because it is faster than maintaining two edges firmly in the snow. One edge is enough to finish the left footed turn so ease of the right edge, switch, edge with the right ski, then the left. So for that 4 - 5 meter section where she goes from the first turn into the second and is only on one edge at a time, she is faster than someone that maintains parallel shafts the entire time.
post #33 of 51
Yep, that makes sense to me, too.  I guess where we differ is that my model of skiing is pretty wide.  Per what Masters Racer said above, in terms of speed on a race course, and maybe the best use of the ski regardless, the ski/snow contact is what matters, and I believe there's a lot of variations on ski/snow contact that'll produce a winning combination.  In addition, I think a model of skiing has to take into account lots of different body geometries. 

Any more, you seem to see a lot of guys who are making tracks (joke, ha ha) in WC slalom who are fairly tall, big, and strong.  Bode, Svindal is a reasonable SL skier...there are some other ones out there who don't come to mind right off.  Grange, on the other hand, is a relatively small, wiry, soccer quickness type of athlete.  I think he skis a lot differently than Bode, for example...but that could just be the way my eye sees things.  And yes, we've all heard about the differences in body geometry between men and women, re the whatever it is factor that defines a women's body geometry.  So I think you're right on the mark when you talk about the way Lindsey skis as perhaps due to her body geometry. I'm one of the guys, and I sure am not built like Lindsey or any other women...but I am a short, square guy, with relatively wide hips, so maybe I can learn something from the way Lindsey and some of the other women ski...



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 Seriously , I think her "style" says a lot more about her body geometry than it does about anything else.  

Just like you cannot look at one turn to validate technique, you can't look at one skier to validate technique either.  

How she skis does not impact either my skiing or my generic model of skiing.  If you want to talk about model technique then she is not the poster girl.

That being said, had I a body like Lindsays, I'd look to her for technique.
 
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

If this was true, then why do we never take this in consideration when we evaluate skiers This is how it goes: A-frame is considered a major flaw and its always fixed with alignment. Applies to Vonn as well.
 

Actually, many do take body geometry into consideration.  The csia has recently produced a "tip"  regarding parallel shins and how inappropriate it may be to women.  They ssk you focus on the edges themselves.
post #35 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post




Actually, many do take body geometry into consideration.  The csia has recently produced a "tip"  regarding parallel shins and how inappropriate it may be to women.  They ssk you focus on the edges themselves.

 

So is Vonn aligned correclty or not ?
post #36 of 51
 What do you mean by correctly?
post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 
Is there any correct alignment then?
post #38 of 51
In my opinion, the correct alignment is the one that allows you to deal with your equipment to manage the forces of skiing the best.  The standard alignment or the bootshop alignment may or may not do that for you.

I know folks that have tried the bootshop alignment and feel "misaligned" -- they ski worse.

In my opinion, it only matters that the skis are flat to the snow when you are in a relaxed stance -- feet under hips
post #39 of 51
Thread Starter 

But what would you suggest Vonn did to her alignment? Is it good or does it need to be adjusted?

post #40 of 51
 In my unprofessional opinion -- I am not a bootfitter -- I think Vonn is standing too wide.  Her "skis flat" position does not look like it's close enough together. 

But who am I to argue with her success?
post #41 of 51
I think that's pretty perceptive, on both counts, and also what you said up above re the stock way anybody would be set up vs. what the WC athletes are doing.  I think Benni Raich has changed his setup, but I heard a couple of years ago, when he was picked as the "anti-Bode" to take away the World Cup, they had Benni's boot cuffs canted severely out and had him way jacked forward.  Reasoning:  he'd always be able to find a new edge easily, even when things got dicey and he had to recover, and being way forward would mean that he'd always be able to find the front part of the ski easily.  Translation:  his setup would always be able to buy him a turn, and he'd be 5th every time, which is kind of the way it turned out.  The downside:  he'd have a very "edgy" stance, and wouldn't be able to have the edge slice through the snow like Bode. 

To move away from alignment for a minute, I use a stock 1/3 bevel on all my Atomics, for all events, which is what Atomic recommends for all its current generation skis, and it works just fine for me.  I've heard that, for injected courses of WC difficulty, most of the guys are flat base, 5 side...or more.  There's no way I could handle that...but there's no need for me to, because the Masters courses I race on aren't anywhere near that severe. 

It's not that even the top athletes don't, occasionally, have equipment issues that slip through the cracks.  I think I heard a story that either Julia Mancuso or Resi Steigler, Lange athletes, was skiing in a boot that was too stiff a couple of years back, and somebody finally saw what was happening and made the change.  Re Vonn, I'm just guessing, but she obviously has an incredible amount of resources at her disposal.  I'm sure Head will build her whatever skis and boots she wants, and set them up any way she wants.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?  The season has started, she's doing well on her current setup, so if I were her, I'd always consider a change...but I'd be very reluctant to do anything radical, because there ain't a lot of time at this point in the season to test and iron out any big tweaks.  That's what you do in the summer...



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 In my unprofessional opinion -- I am not a bootfitter -- I think Vonn is standing too wide.  Her "skis flat" position does not look like it's close enough together. 

But who am I to argue with her success?

 
post #42 of 51
When the model doesn't match reality, it's generally a sign that the model is over simplified (or just wrong). Eventually the model is adjusted to account for the discrepancies.

All the top racers A-frame at times. The "parallel shafts is perfection" model will have to change to accommodate that reality.

Does that mean A-framing is good and we all should do it? Certainly not if we don't even understand why they're doing it and what advantages it brings. It would be cargo cult science at its best.
post #43 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 In my unprofessional opinion -- I am not a bootfitter -- I think Vonn is standing too wide.  Her "skis flat" position does not look like it's close enough together. 

But who am I to argue with her success?

 

So her A-frame is a result of standing too wide when skis are flat?
post #44 of 51
 No, it's because that's her natural body geometry.
post #45 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 Imagine how fast she'd be with parallel shafts! 




Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

The csia has recently produced a "tip"  regarding parallel shins and how inappropriate it may be to women.  
 




Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

In my opinion, it only matters that the skis are flat to the snow when you are in a relaxed stance -- feet under hips
 




Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 In my unprofessional opinion -- I am not a bootfitter -- I think Vonn is standing too wide.  Her "skis flat" position does not look like it's close enough together. 

 


So is her alignment ok or not?
post #46 of 51
Yes, it's just fine...



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post















So is her alignment ok or not?
post #47 of 51
 The first quote was a joke.

I personally think they are set to be too wide when flat -- but remember that's just an opinion from a non-bootfitter.  It could be completely wrong.  A key problem is that we don't get to see much of her just standing straight.
post #48 of 51
Its too bad most of the podium shots she is in don't show the alignment. There would be a lot of photographic evidence then if they did.

I could go to Copper and ask her to stand for some photos.
post #49 of 51
 Get some shots around the hot tub if you can.  They're the best.
post #50 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 Get some shots around the hot tub if you can.  They're the best.

I actually have one of those, but BWPA has me sworn to secrecy.

JF
post #51 of 51
Well guys, what works for Vonn is partially taylored for Vonn. The same thing with Bode, most of that stuff he does is designed for him, one could never expect to copy his stance and approach from anyone else.

That is why I think it is crucial to develope excellent basic skills, because with those you are going to be an already tough skier to beat. Add some of your own recipe that you aquire over the years and that is where the individualism comes to shine.
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