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Other things to be considered while turning..... - Page 6

post #151 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post




This is the first time where I think this is easier done than said. But you are right sfdean as you apply pressure onto your outside leg, you will also start moving the lower leg forward. How quick is certainly a matter of what turn size, but it may help to start playing with it doing bigger turns and shift the lower leg slower forward to get the feel for it. In SL it is perhaps more of a kick as you describe the can kicking.
You can also combine that with moving the inner leg back simultaneously or try either and check what has a better effect.

 

OK.  I'll give this a try when I'm on snow again.  The pulling (or holding) the inside foot back bit I get, because it's something I've had to do to avoid excessive inside tip lead.  Pushing the outside ski forward sounds difficult, but I'll try both simultaneously, kind of a shuffle. 

Presumably like almost everything else in skiing/racing, it's supposed to be progressive and smooth even if rapid, exactly unlike a jerky move.

And tdk6's post above points out how you have to emphasize forward and low even more, to still be able to adequately pressure the forebody of the outside ski at initiation of the control/pressure/carving phase of the turn.

This sounds like it would take a lot of practice to get ingrained outside the gates in muscle memory so it might show up occasionally in the gates. 

(I don't know about you guys, but my internal monologue pretty much goes away in the gates as I transition into fully-in-the-body attack/survival mode.  It's exactly the opposite of being able to go through a checklist at each turn and transition...  I can manage maybe one theme per run--get forward or don't worry about gate clear--and maybe one or two major tactical notes--set up early with a turn from behind at that red gate before the blue gate at the breakover.  Most of the rest of it has to be muscle memory/practice/instinct or error correction/recovery on the fly.  Which is why this year I'm going to be practicing a big forward move on every breakover everywhere, when free skiing.)

SfDean
post #152 of 171
Hi gang,
This thread has expanded quite a bit since I was last here, with some others joining in!  I have been on snow 16 days now, most of those on consistent firm machine made snow.
 
BigE, hope you can get on snow soon.  I really like the demo on the roller blade clip.
 
SF, thanks for posting the training clip of Marlies Schild, this is the kind of stuff I am looking for. 

I really like the clip of Sykora running stubbies in the ruts, that guy was great!  I had the privilege of watching the Austrian guys train at Mammoth in the Fall of 1998 just before Sykora retired.  At the same camp was a young Benni Raich preparing for his first season on the WC.

As for the foot sliding forwad, I would emphasize the subtlety of this movement.  I think it is more simple than this thread is making it out to be.  I have been playing around with it on SL skis almost everyday, & I agree that an opening of the ankle is a key inclusion in the process.  Also, I would describe the range of motion on the sole of the foot to be not much more than pressure from just behind the big toe side of the ball of the foot, to just the forward part of the heel, or just  the length of the arch.  This is enough to press & lever the ski through the turn & help reduce friction as well as add to the slicing & gripping effect.  All this happens before the release into the new turn, beginning as soon as there is sufficient bending pressure on the ski.  How quickly the foot & ankle move through the arc is dependent on the length of the turn.

Another bicycle analogy might be that it is kind of like when you roll the bike underneath you from pressure on the front wheel to the rear through a turn.

Happy to be skiing,
JF
post #153 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

Hi gang,
This thread has expanded quite a bit since I was last here, with some others joining in!  I have been on snow 16 days now, most of those on consistent firm machine made snow.
 
BigE, hope you can get on snow soon.  I really like the demo on the roller blade clip.
 
SF, thanks for posting the training clip of Marlies Schild, this is the kind of stuff I am looking for. 

I really like the clip of Sykora running stubbies in the ruts, that guy was great!  I had the privilege of watching the Austrian guys train at Mammoth in the Fall of 1998 just before Sykora retired.  At the same camp was a young Benni Raich preparing for his first season on the WC.

As for the foot sliding forwad, I would emphasize the subtlety of this movement.  I think it is more simple than this thread is making it out to be.  I have been playing around with it on SL skis almost everyday, & I agree that an opening of the ankle is a key inclusion in the process.  Also, I would describe the range of motion on the sole of the foot to be not much more than pressure from just behind the big toe side of the ball of the foot, to just the forward part of the heel, or just  the length of the arch.  This is enough to press & lever the ski through the turn & help reduce friction as well as add to the slicing & gripping effect.  All this happens before the release into the new turn, beginning as soon as there is sufficient bending pressure on the ski.  How quickly the foot & ankle move through the arc is dependent on the length of the turn.

Another bicycle analogy might be that it is kind of like when you roll the bike underneath you from pressure on the front wheel to the rear through a turn.

Happy to be skiing,
JF

Hi 4ster,

Glad that you got to try this move out. And yes it should really not be all that hard at first and you might be able to refine it after a few hours to get the most out of it for your skiing. But again I think it adds quite some interesting things to an already good technique for a recreational skier and an essential tool for a racer.
What would you say about that?
post #154 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
But again I think it adds quite some interesting things to an already good technique for a recreational skier and an essential tool for a racer.
What would you say about that?
 

I would say that I agree.  Over the weekend as the softer snow got scraped off the slope I introduced this idea to a group of experienced skiers.  The feedback I got from one of them was that it allowed him to grip & hold his edge in the slick spots without sacrificing turn shape where he had been slipping sideways previously.

I also think that it is applicable in off piste skiing & cut up soft snow, to help keep the skis moving cleanly through the snow.

JF
post #155 of 171
 Which brings us full circle back to the notion of slicing.

If you are to add impulse to the end of the movement, I think you'll really have something special.
post #156 of 171
I would agree with the idea of abandoning the "kick the can" analogy. I much prefer the inline skate comparison or the "heel carve". It really is actively applying pressure in an arc forward with the outside foot.
It seems that this move is somewhat similar to what one we used to do often on straight skis, at least recreationally, where you bent the tip and then moved pressure back to the heel to finish the turn and get rebound. The biggest difference being that now the skis arc and your heel pressure is following the arc -giving the "heel carve" or "slice". With the straight skis it was more about bending the ski and rebound. Here the rebound comes from the turn pressures that build up.
Is that right?
post #157 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I would agree with the idea of abandoning the "kick the can" analogy. I much prefer the inline skate comparison or the "heel carve". It really is actively applying pressure in an arc forward with the outside foot.
It seems that this move is somewhat similar to what one we used to do often on straight skis, at least recreationally, where you bent the tip and then moved pressure back to the heel to finish the turn and get rebound. The biggest difference being that now the skis arc and your heel pressure is following the arc -giving the "heel carve" or "slice". With the straight skis it was more about bending the ski and rebound. Here the rebound comes from the turn pressures that build up.
Is that right?
 

Yes this sound right to me really. With the straight skis it was just way too difficult and just the best could get a rebound out where nowadays it is something that can be enjoyed by many. Maybe you can come to a common word how to really name this move in english?
post #158 of 171
Slice?
post #159 of 171

Pressure the middle of the ski?

post #160 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Pressure the middle of the ski?


I haven't read any of this thread.....but for the record....this is all I do.....pretty much all the time.
post #161 of 171
"Sting" would work too.
post #162 of 171
SNAP!, or snappy.
JF
post #163 of 171
 I like that snap.
post #164 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 I like that snap.
What do you mean the word snap or are you finally skiing?
post #165 of 171
 The word.

Still nothing happening here.  There are 80 cm expected, but no where near our hills.  There is not much snow expected on our hills.  
post #166 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 The word.

Still nothing happening here.  There are 80 cm expected, but no where near our hills.  There is not much snow expected on our hills.  
Well I am not starting here about global warming.
In any case if you guys feel that the action can be associated with that word, please go ahead. But hopefully it does not happen that down the road somebody mentions that word and tries to tell me again that it is something different. I have enough problems as it is as a foreigner trying the english language in ski specific ways.
post #167 of 171
 To reduce confusion, why not just call it a "heel carve"?
post #168 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 To reduce confusion, why not just call it a "heel carve"?
 
Sounds good to me, here is a run from Janka where you can really see how he tries to eliminate the tip lead and put this technique to use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzkojJ2xYvA
post #169 of 171
 Beautiful.  

I'm away for a week - skiing!  I'll be trying that move out. Talk to you later!
post #170 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 Beautiful.  

I'm away for a week - skiing!  I'll be trying that move out. Talk to you later!
Well merry Christmas I may add, a few more events and then I have a brake.

Have fun.
post #171 of 171
Great skiing from Janka, I am just getting ready to watch todays race on Universal.  Yesterdays SG, showed a lot about what kind of energy is stored in a WC ski turn, & what kind of trouble it can create if it isn't channeled in the right direction!

BigE, glad to here you are finally gonna get some skiing.  We got hit with over 2 feet of new snow in Utah last night & today.  I will miss the consistant manmade snow for working on technique, but fresh snow & more terrain will be just fine too.

JF
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