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Knee Driving - Pointing Your Knees Into The Turn - Page 3

post #61 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 knee pointing, and the resultant femur rotation as a primary outcome
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 What I really want is your inside knee further inside the turn because that position tells me that they are edging.

 


I think we danced around it enough guys .   Here (from 2 different posts) are the two small bits of brilliance that I think sums it up (if you dive just a bit deeper.)

When you tip the inside foot as the move that triggers everything else (and along with everything else that goes with a good turn) the RESULTANT ROTATION of the femur is just that.....Resultant....not active. The knee on that side points, it has to to create an O-Frame.  The only question now is, how much does it point?  And the answer is....not much and for a very short period of time. Once the move is made the sequence has started.

As far as getting the inside knee (further inside) as a second move (a result of the tipping of the foot which would be the first) assuming the ski is allowed to become light at that point a lot of great things happen.  The CM drops to the inside so both skis can edge.  I think the biggest advantage of working the inside knee first is that it gets the inside leg out of the way of the stance skis leg and frees you to move the CM to the inside of the turn as far as you want creating an awesome edge angle.

(you guys let me know when you want to switch legs and cover the other knee)
post #62 of 77
 Uncle Louie, 

You have the floor.... feel free to continue!
post #63 of 77
Thanks for the schooling. I have so much to learn.





I think I'll go skiing.
post #64 of 77
 Snow!? What's that?
post #65 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 Snow!? What's that?

Is it still 50 degrees up there too?

Edit: 10 degrees C.
post #66 of 77
It was 8F as I drove through Steamboat Springs this morning. The time was 7AM. I was on my way to Loveland to have a great day skiing!

Cheers...Rick H
post #67 of 77
 Here is a simple example you can do in your living room that will prove conclusively that tipping the feet and rotating the femurs are fundamentally different activities.

1) Tipping the feet.

Begin by standing straight upright.  Now tip your feet at the ankles as much as you can.  Not much happens, does it? 

Now, while you continue to tip your feet, just flex your knees.  It's amazing! The knees move into the turn and you can tip a LOT more.  Try to hit 45 degrees.

That's tipping as the primary movement.  How's that feel?

2) Rotate the femurs.

Begin by standing with knees bent.  Now, rotate the femurs to tip the feet.  Try to hit 45 degrees.

That's rotation as the primary movement. How's that feel?



EDIT:

3) Begin by standing with the knees bent.  Now, tip the feet as in step 1.

Amazing isn't it?
Edited by BigE - 11/19/09 at 12:23pm
post #68 of 77
I don't think I agree BigE.   Tipping and pivoting are two different intentions yes.  There is a LOT of overlap in terms of the body actions used to execute.

Its VERY easy to get intermingled precisely because they both involve rotational movements of the femur.  In fact, I would say most skiers that are trying to tip or trying to pivot are probably using a mix.  

In fact, die-hard tippers/non-pivoters actually spend a great deal of effort trying to fine tune the way that they rotate their femurs so that tipping is isolated, and such that whatever rotary components are happening in their femur some how are not transmitted to the feet as pivoting  or are absorbed through counter-action and other means.  Some of the way they do that is by not focusing on their femurs and rather focusing on movements in their feet.  However movements by the femur do have to happen.  

When you talk about a "primary movement", it starts to become a bit of pyschological tricks of the trade in order to attempt to induce certain isolated coordination of body parts in a certain way that seems easier then when you think about it a different way.  Is it the only way to coordinate those body parts effectively?  I say no.  
post #69 of 77
BTS,

I'm a bit confused with your post.  To my view, pivoting has the outcome of redirecting the skis, and you use it like that in one place, but it seems you've also used it to describe an edging movement.

My example section 2 shows that the movement starting at the base of support is not psychological.  The tension in the legs from the tipping effort CAUSES the knees to move "into the turn" when they are flexed.  That's pure bio-mechanics.  

Starting the movement from the base of support is also far less disruptive to one's balance. Why? Since the core is strongly involved in maintaining balance, if you also use the core to drive movements you will compromise it's balance function. 

So, to my view, the feet have it. The CSIA has been a "ski from the feet" organization for some time now.  The concept is getting some traction up here.  I think it's good.
post #70 of 77
Read my post again.  Seperate results/outcomes/intentions from the bodily functions you use to get there.
post #71 of 77
 For what purpose?
post #72 of 77
 Well obviously you didn't understand what I wrote.  If you are going to respond to something I say, please try to understand it first.  

That could be a bumpersticker
post #73 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 Well obviously you didn't understand what I wrote.  If you are going to respond to something I say, please try to understand it first.  

That could be a bumpersticker
 

or a signature. It is almost worth the price of admission to be able to use it as one.
post #74 of 77
 I tried to understand how it related to my exercise, which is why I'm confused.

Your comment on die hard tippers trying to isolate rotation from tipping is not relevant to my point.  Rotation happens. It is a necessary movement for edging That is clear from the exercise.

I'm saying that there are those that are rotating their femurs FIRST to get the skis onto an edge.  There are others for which the rotation is driven by the tipping at the feet.  That is what the exercise was intended to portray, as well as the differences in the bodies reaction to the two movements.

Does the exercise miss doing that or are you saying that a skilled individual can edge accurately by femur rotation alone? Will it produce an equivalent outcome?  Or does the outcome not matter?
post #75 of 77
I understand better what you meant earlier.  Let me explain why I was led to post my criticism:

You said:

Quote:
 
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
 Here is a simple example you can do in your living room that will prove conclusively that tipping the feet and rotating the femurs are fundamentally different activities.

Tipping the feet includes rotating the femurs in the hip socket.  You cannot tip your boot one millimeter without turning your femur in your hip socket.  You can invert your foot a bit inside your boot before the boot starts to move.  But once the boot starts moving, your femur is turning in the hip socket, regardless of which muscle groups are being activated to make it happen.

I understand now what you were trying to say was something more like "tipping with a focus on activating muscles in the feet is a fundamentally different activity then tipping with a focus on activating muscles in the leg/hips to turn the femurs".  And I agree with that to a point.

I believe its an error to ignore the fact that the femurs are turning there, or to pretend it doesn't happen.  Or to confuse the point by saying rotating the femurs is a fundamentally different activity then tipping the feet, because they are not mutually exclusive, expressed that way.

So I want to be clear and acknowledge that there is a rotation happening in the hip socket.  

Its not clear to me that it should be ignored entirely, nor is it clear to me that we can only use one muscle group at a time(like patting our head and rubbing our belly, which by the way is not that hard with a little practice).

In actual practice, my own feeling is that there are some tremendous advantages to using our feet to guide the actions of our legs.  But that doesn't mean the rest of our legs are limp and lifeless gobs of flesh that follow what the feet are doing.  It just means they can follow the lead of the feet and there is great advantage to that.  However the rest of our legs can also be proactive.  Think of it more like using the feet to initiate the movement, but engaging other muscle groups, nearly simultaneously to assist.





 
post #76 of 77
 Like I said, rotation happens -- there is no disputing it.  The example shows that clearly -- that was it's point: you will get rotation in the hip socket by tipping the feet so long as the legs are bent.

At issue is the *quality* of this rotation and it's impact on balance.

In another thread, I drew the analogy of tipping by using femur rotation as a primary movement is like painting by using shoulder movements -- not very accurate.  Tipping using a foot/ankle movement as the primary movement is like painting by first moving the wrist -- a much more accurate movement.

As far as the impact on balance, I am strongly suggesting that the tipping movements that originate in the feet are better for balance.   I think that the example also shows that component.  

 
post #77 of 77
I completely agree with BigE, rotation actually allows to enter a turn as well as exit it.
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