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Wacko how long have you skied? - Page 3

post #61 of 117
Yes, this is what makes me curious, too. As you recall, it puzzled me in Bormio. I'm skiing part of the course of the Stelvio Downhill, and being told to keep my boots together. Then you go back to the bar that is owned by the ski school, and they are showing videos of Tomba and Debra Compagni {SP?}, and they are not skiing this way.

I see this happen when people work on the stability ball. They may start with their feet tightly together, but then have difficulty balancing in any of the exercises. And as d-chan has pointed out, this is not really functional for woman, because of thr q angle attachnment.

I think one of the reasons tempers really flared on this particular thread, is that some of us are irate at having been lied to.
Someone who skied as a teenager did not just start learning as an adult, 2 years ago. Ask any motor learning specialist, there is a profound difference in learning abilities between teenagers and adults, and skills that are learned as a teenager are retained for a long period of time.
My 14 year old step daughter loves to rub it in my face that she was able to stop using the wedge before I was, even though she lives in Florida, and obviously has less skiing days than I do.
Although I love her dearly, that sort of behavior is barely tolerable in a 14 year old.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #62 of 117
Wacko and Gravity,

As the "grandpa" on this forum I want to take both of you behind the woodshed for a little lecture:

It is best for this forum if either of you totally ignored the other one, don't address each other in any post, not even in a sly third person reference, no interaction at all between the two of you, otherwise we may not find this forum when we get back in September.

You each deeply hurt each other's feelings and you can hate each other in private, just keep it off this forum!

OK, you can go now.

post #63 of 117
Attaboy Ott, this forum is important to me. I would be saddened if it went away. I don't think AC was making idle threats.

Besides, we're getting to the topic that intrigues me. Why has PMTS adopted this stance and can anyone cite/name a top level skier who skis in this manner? I guess I see the stance issue as being the proverbial achilles heel of PMTS.

Wacko, you mentioned the PMTS stance as being the reason your skiing improved in crud, etc.
Certainly the case, particularly in narrow bumps, busted powder. I would suggest there are other conditions where a narrow stance is disadvantageous.
post #64 of 117
Rusty, as I explained in the discussion about the Trygve Berge poster, if you are asked to do "one footed skiing" as HH does, that is with all the weight on the downhill turning ski, you can do one of two things: you either keep the uphill ski off the snow, or you keep it on the snow but next to the weighted ski.

Should you keep it on the snow with a wide stance and no weight on it, it would get deflected, catch edges and choose it's own direction, most likely ending in a spread eagle fall. Skiing one footed in a close stance does not inhibit extreme edging, as the edge is increased on the carving ski, the base of the inside ski just moves up to boot top.

A question to you: what would pou do with the unweighted ski to keep it out of the way of the weighted one?

post #65 of 117
I'm sorry you had to come out too. Thanks for the reminder.
Thanks for the pep talk.
Rusty Guy and Wacko,
I was one of those guys that skied for many years with my feet "locked" together. Yes it was an advantage in bumps and crud if I was skiing with all my weight on one ski but as I began to explore more of the mountain it became a limiting factor. On the very steep stuff It was much easier to use a weighted release (as it was put in PMTS) or two footed skiing as I was taught with a wider stance. Having weight on both skis and gentle steering or hard steering if trying to make very tight turns. Having weight on both skis keep them from getting kicked around by lumps and soft spots. It keep me in much better balance if I hit an icy patch. Just more places of contact to balance. As I began to explore this part of my skiing I kept asking Lyle about "where should all my weight be?" and his response was to stop thinking about the weight ratio and work on the edge angles, steering and balance. In order for you to keep from getting "thrown over the handle bars" so to speak your body will "move" the pressure or the pressure will go to the outside ski as you turn. He also keep working on my extension into the belly of the turn. Use all of your range of motion. The "not thinking about where to put the weight" was a big eye opener for me.

Pierre Eh,
You were posting while I was typing..

I found that moving to a wider stance made edge changes much faster than the narrow stance. (just my experience)

I think the moving to the wider stance overall instead of narrow at straight up and down and "wider or farther apart" at high edge angles was very helpful for me. Instead of thinking about pulling them back together as I changed directions I could just move my hips/legs/CM across the plane of the skis and instant edge change.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited May 18, 2001).]</FONT>
post #66 of 117
Pierre and dchan, I'm not saying you should ski with skis and boots touching, I'm only saying that when your uphill/inside ski has no weight on it it must be kept tight to the weighted ski for stability.

In wide track skiing you MUST carry some weight on the uphill/inside ski to keep it tracking.

Pierre, the skis do not go to wide track and back on every turn when skiing steep stuff with skis together, in fact they just ride up and down on the inside of the boots, still in contact. To me, wide track means that skis and boots don't touch.

post #67 of 117
Time for you to read the Expert 2 book . one of his exercises is to put a ball between your boots and hold it there while you ski. This is to get you feel what it should be like. boots in contact all the time.

I don't agree with it but thought you might be interested that this is one of thie things HH is teaching as far as narrow stance.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited May 18, 2001).]</FONT>
post #68 of 117
it has to. Otherwise the outside ski will get knocked off the snow by the inside boot. Lay on your side on the floor with one leg on top of the other. You have to get your feet pretty far apart (long leg/ short leg) to get the top foot to touch the ground. When skiing steeps, or going to really high edge angles, as the inside leg gets short, you can't keep much width between your feet. It will become either pratically, or physically impossible when you get enough edge angle. One of the premises of PSIA's wider stance was to allow both skis to get edge angles without the boots colliding, or having to slide one foot up, closer to your body, and risking it getting hung up on your other boot. If your feet are touching when you start increasing edge angle, one ski will HAVE to lose it's carve (if you're trying to carve) to avoid the other ski. Most probably, it will be the outside ski skidding away from the inside one. By espousing the virtues of skiing with your feet together, Harb has made it more difficult to hold the carve that he preaches to vehimently.

Elevator exercize: Stand about 2 feet from the wall of the elevator with yout feet touching, side by side. Angulate your hip into the wall (you must edge your shoes - not keep your feet flat on the floor). If you don't slide one foot out of the way, your outside foot will come off the ground.

And on top of all this, if you ski with yout feet pressed together, you're gonna go through a lot of ski pants, because you'll shred the cuffs. I wonder if HH is being sponsored by a clothing manufacturer???
post #69 of 117
Pierre, dchan, John, just forget it, it's not worth discussing, we obviously have different ideas what wide track means. To me it means that there is distance between the skis and boots at all times.

Pierre, if you mean that a skier with high edge angle who'se legs, and skis/boots are as tight together as humanly possible, but who'se ski tracks a wider apart, is skiing wide track during this phase, we just have different ideas as to what wide track skiing is.

post #70 of 117
I'll vouch for the shredded pants...
My first check for pants/powderpants used to be leather on the inside cuff...
post #71 of 117

??huh?? I totally agree with you. I don't think I even referenced you or the stuff you said. I was just commenting on edge angle and stance width. I absolutely agree that if one ski is not weighted, the best place for it, is against the weighted ski, to keep it stable.

Question; Is that why a lot of the old wooden skis have that long (about 2") tab extending from the tip? To put the unweighted ski against it for stability? I always wondered why those were there. I though maybe they had something to do with carrying or transporting the skis or something.
post #72 of 117
Actually I think I understand what you say more than JohnH in this instance. I was just making a comment about the part of the touching boots/skis.
but you are right. sounds like a place to agree to disagree.

Pontiac "Wider is better" drive the new Grand Am....
post #73 of 117
Te she d a little light...

In the world of PMTS, yo get the boots together during the grey zon/transition.

As skiing gets more dynamic (higher level) there is a separation of the skis and the feet, so you can get more edge angel, and, of course, it happens on steeper terrain, due to vertical separation..

Right on Pierre! Right on...

These turn feel really good. However so do ATS dynamic cross-under turns with (delicate) rebound...

Rusty, pivot slips are cool. Very. But they are not part of PMTS. The onefooted, then two footed release drills in PMTS, do allow one to turn in a very narrow corridor. But it's a very SKARVY thing... skidded carve... lotsa control there too...

I have use pivot slips as a skill that helps learning how to ski in bumps slowly, and with lots of control...As I have mentioned before, I have not had PMTS training (yet) in upper level skiing, just green and blue.

Ott, your observations of 2 turns per socond with wedlin style technice is right on.. I am always amused and enlightned by the depth of your posts!

I get comments about my "Austrian Tendancies" in clinics when we start playing in tight, quick bumps, and I drop straight down the zipperline. Amusing. I learned to wedeln on my CPM TI's (with Reiker G2 boots) as a teenager. I was about 5'7" and the Kästle's were 200's. Learning to ski at Buck Hill, MN!

Went to college in Montana, I learned the joys of my first mid-fats - Head Yahoos in a 185, using Strolz boots.

Funny, my favorite skis now are usually at least that wide underfoot!

I did make a comment on Wacko's "level" in the M.A. by Snokarver. Wacko's contacted me since, and true to form, he's after a "better grade".

And as far as AC's comments go about the animosity here, 'cmon let's cool it. This is one of the best ski forums on the net, and it's because of the group dynamics! No need to reduce onself to being a THUG!

Read that book Wacko! ;P

BTW, does anyone here mess with "live chat" of any kind. This discussion would be FUN in a live voice forum, once in a while.

May I suggest www.firetalk.com?

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #74 of 117

only problem is it's hard to conference.
The other problem with chat's is it takes up too much of most of our day. with the forum format we can go away and make some money (so we can ski) and still see what has been happening. With chats a lot can be lost if no one is archiving the chats..
post #75 of 117
"I learned to wedeln on my CPM TI's (with Reiker G2 boots) as a teenager. I was about 5'7" and the Kästle's were 200's."

I still have those skis! and the threads pierre listed show me on those skis last spring.
post #76 of 117
All of you guys have posted really good threads. SnoKarver, I hate doing pivot slips, mainly because I don't do them particularly well. The flatter and slower the worse I get. They were "prescribed" to me to increase extension as I initiated a turn. I do them alot.
post #77 of 117
John, I lost a detailed explanation, so I'll make it short. You are right, it is easy to get booted out if you don't get your inside ski out of the way while skiing tight.

The tip extensions on old one-piece wood skis were for spreaders. Since camber and shovel turn up were steamed in, as the skis got wet during the day, they had to be spread over night. A clamp on the tail and another one just behinbd the shovel turn-up, a four inch block under the bindings to spead them for camber, and a ten inch by two inch wood, a half inch thick and an inch deep notch on each end to fit the tip extension.

A matching hole through the wings of the notch and the tip extension on the ski was for a nail to keep the spreader from slipping off.

SnoKarver and dchan, thanks for your comments...

post #78 of 117
I still have a pair of skis in my closet with the rubber clamps around them (remember those things that as a kid we were not strong enough to pull them around the top) and a tennis ball stuck between them at the binding. I suspect that tennis ball is pretty shot by now.. and I'm suprised the rubber stretchy things have not exploded....
I never knew that they used to have that stuff built onto the ski.. neat trivia.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited May 18, 2001).]</FONT>
post #79 of 117
Thread Starter 
Many good skiers vary their stance width as conditions dictate. This is my stance width for some conditions.
Narrow stance: zipperline bumps, some crud, breakable crust, flushes in slalom course

medium stance: open gates in slalom, most hard snow skiing

Wide stance: most GS,SG and DH turns,
<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by NordtheBarbarian (edited May 18, 2001).]</FONT>
post #80 of 117
Pierre, right! .....Ott
post #81 of 117
To all that posted, I really enjoyed most of this thread.

However, I have never seen AC so _issed off as with his post. He is usually pretty laid back, so lets not do anything to loose epicski.com. It puts the other ski forums back into the first grade.

I think disagreement and conmpetition is fine, but hey its an exchange of ideas. Got an axe to grind, meet on the slopes, or behind the "woodshed."

No one will convince everyone all of the time, and frankly a little "good natured " humor is good for all of us.

If I hadn't been under the weather, it was my intention not to return until about mid-July, but these lively exchanges are very entertaining as long as they are not mean spirited. For the most part the cast of characters and their posts have been pretty decent. Even Mr. Wacko is coming around... so there is hope for us all.

I was a little concerned about one of Lisamarie's posts. Someone really offended her. So a little respect for various viewpoints and orientations usually helps everyone.
post #82 of 117
O.k, we're back to some good stuff.
Pierre, in your post on pg.2 @5:02 could you go back and edit your ">" because it's blocking your quotes you typed in. Make the text "less than" instead of "greater than" and it should show up and we'll know what you were refering to. >text<

So we seem to have settled "what" narrow and wide stances are but I still don't quite get the "why". Is there any advantage to keeping such a narrow stance? Or has this narrow stance come about because the release move is the foundation of the PMTS system and it's easier to do this from a narrow stance?

dchan, is there anything in the book that discusses this?
post #83 of 117
I didn't notice anything specifically pointing to that reason. There might have been but I did not read the book cover to cover. I kinda did my once through. and then went back to the parts that interested me. It seems that his idea was more that when the skis are together, and if the balance is there it's easier to move a single point of contact then 2 points of contact on the snow. also the wandering partially weighted ski might cause some problems. except that in the undergraduate and graduate section it goes to a 2 footed or weighted release.
post #84 of 117
I will take a stab at this, even though we really need a highly certified PMTS instructor or HH for a definitive answer.
I think I've figured it out. I consider the theme of this book to be to get the reader to experience (possibly for the first time) what it feels like to let the skis do all the work. To this end the progression seems focused on making it very difficult to do anything BUT let the skis do everything. I would guess that this is why he insists on one foot skiing. Because you cannot use leg steering if the inside ski is off the snow (according to Pierre).
And why he wants the reader to lift the inside ski after flattening it. To make sure all the weight is on the outside ski.
And why the boots should always be touching. So it is harder to weight the inside ski.
So in this context the ultra narrow stance makes perfect sense.
post #85 of 117
Pierre, my impression was that he wants the reader to lift the inside ski AFTER flattening it. In other words, first tip, then lift. So the mechanism for preventing the improper start to the turn is the initial flattening of the old stance ski, and the lifting serves a completely different purpose. I had to read it a few times to get this, due to the confusing nature of the book, but I am pretty sure that this is what Harb is saying.
This illustrates what I am saying.
Look at the "details" section.
<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by milesb (edited May 18, 2001).]</FONT>
post #86 of 117
BTW, if you watch Lito ski in his videos, the first thing that he does is lift the old stance ski, then tip it. Then while the new stance ski is flat, he does his upper body rotation thing to skid it into the turn. So it IS possible to do it wrong with the inside ski lifted. Alot of effort, though!
post #87 of 117
Pierre, thanks for clearing up that post and your comments.

You said for narrow stance:
>>The disadvantages are that agressive movements are more difficult to control the outcome, the turn size is locked in more (static) and the edge engagment is more restricted.<<

The first part's a little unclear. I take it to mean it's hard to make agressive movements and control the outcome. Is the turn size locked in because you can't move the hips in too far inside? Or is it because you have less rotary force to apply with your lower legs if the feet are close together?

>>I aligned my feet standing with my skis 12" apart.<<
If you mean 12" in between the inside edges this is very wide indeed! Are you setting your stance width by having your femurs come straight down from the hips?

Here's the description of the move miles refered to:
"Release to Full Turn" - Harb Ski Systems http://www.harbskisystems.com/olb2.htm

>>From a stationary traverse position, with balance on both skis, release by flattening the downhill ski to the snow (roll it toward its little-toe edge). Continue to flatten that ski to the snow, and let the uphill ski follow. This movement of the downhill ski will cause both skis to aim slightly downhill, and they’ll begin to slide. Continue to lead the tipping with the downhill foot, and let the uphill foot lag slightly behind.
As the skis flatten and aim downhill, lighten or pick up the downhill ski - it becomes the free foot. As the skis slide downhill, keep the tail of the free ski lifted slightly, and continue to tip the free ski toward its little-toe edge. It can be helpful to think of pulling up on the arch of the free foot. This creates both the lifting and tipping that are needed. The tipping of the free foot engages the big-toe edge of the stance ski. Be passive with the stance ski - do not attempt to edge or steer it with the stance foot. <<

If there's any doubt pmts teaches narrow stance:
from pmts.org: http://www.pmts.org/newsletter/july00/july.htm#craig
"Report from PMTS Instructor College in Austria, by Lynn Horwitz"

>>The alpine conditions and terrain provided huge learning opportunities for a Midwestern skier used to "packed powder". The lessons I learned were to soften the end of my turns, letting my skis drift down hill engaging on their own, and keeping my heels close together, in fact, touching. I found I had to ski efficiently to have the energy to ski the thousands of meters in each run. By the last day, I was able to "float" through the end of my turns, pulling my heels together to release more easily into the new turn.<<

By the way, training is coming to Nub's Nob next Dec.
post #88 of 117
Uh huh. Just tried it. With narrow stance, same thing happpens as on skis. Have to keep from falling foward. It feels more balance at a wider stance. Thanks
post #89 of 117
yes that makes sense. Big question is why support the entire school on that narrow foundation?
Besides making the release easier is it another thing to differentiate himself? Like "NO Wedge" that's an easy sign to read. (actually pmts.org has "NO Plow") circle w/line through it.

I like the idea of not talking about rotary but just having it happen. what get's ridiculous is this continual refusal to even discuss it and then go into Harb speak.

well, GTSO (got to sign off) so i can GHQ (get home quick)
ahh...MGTS (must go to sleep)
Don't even think about using those acronyms without contacting me.(no just send $)
post #90 of 117
Wanna Bedtime story? Once upon a time in a snowy, snowy land, There lived a PMTS wizard.
szzzz okay he's sleeping. night night Tog.
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