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Wacko how long have you skied?

post #1 of 117
Thread Starter 
Wacko how long have you skied?
Dude, get your story straight. First you've skied 2 years, the 1 year, now you used to ski with your dad when you were a kid.

Some quotes

TOPIC: My comments on Expert 2
Wacko says
I grew up poor. When my Dad would take me skiing, and we'd go into the lodge for lunch, everyone used to stare at us. We brought our lunch, had rental equipment, and wore jeans. It used to make me so mad - the snobs who thought they were better than us.

TOPIC: I met Wacko
Rusty Guy says this about Wacko
I told Wacko that he is a very good skier. I only made three runs in pretty sloppy conditions and I was trying to watch intently while dodging traffic. I was really interested to watch him ski. He is clearly very athletic and I guess what impressed me the most was his fore/aft balance. We got into some small bumps and he shined. Again, I was impressed mostly by his balance and athletic posture. He has very quick feet in bumps. I think I told him that I was particularly impressed by the fact that this is his first year on snow, although I guess he has compressed several years of experience into the first year.

TOPIC: That’s it. Now I’m pissed
Wacko says
Let's see watcha got. Barnes, anyone. You think you've got it? I got more. I'll make you cry for Mommy and I've only been on skis for two years. You can lie behind text, now someone is calling you out. Since you speak with forked tongue, only you and God will know that a PMTS trained rookie pounded your sorry butt.
post #2 of 117
post #3 of 117
Thread Starter 
So you originally learned to ski with wedge turns etc?
post #4 of 117
Nord- I hope I didn't cause/promote any confusion. Wacko never expressly said to me that he had been skiing for one year. Quite honestly, I don't remember where I got the idea that he had one year of experience. I must have gotten it here at some point.

I'm a PSIA member (level 1) and taught full time for the first time this year. I was simply curious about the guy and I wanted to see him ski. I may have been the source of disinformation, and if that is the case. sorry.

I want to review the earlier posts. I don't know where I would have gotten the idea it was one year other than here.

I will reiterate, the guy has become a good skier. How good is hard to quantify. It's so subjective. I wish I had more time to talk about what I saw. I'm in a pinch for time these days and quite frankly no one seems to be asking for more of my impressions.
post #5 of 117
We're all waiting for you to return to your other thread. wacko has o.k.'d response
post #6 of 117
Wacko it's comments such as these that don't generally endear you to people. I think my comments have so far been fairly positive. You have said you have a teaching relationship with SnoKarver, so I that would lead one to believe the relationship involves remuneration. With or without money, he is clearly a friend. Who would have the most unbiased view of your skiing teacher/friend or third party? I've already sung your praises. Why would you make a statement like you did in the previous thread? Do you think that makes me particularly happy?

I have all the faith in the world that SnoKarver WILL give a fair and unbiased description of your skiing so I'll let him. I will say this. I am the most positive guy in the world. I'm the kind of person who will say positive things in the midst of the worst situation. You might have done better hearing things from me, however at this point I don't really want to say a whole lot. I am of the opinion you might be well served to think a bit more before you put your thoughts online.

I suggested to you once before that you might want to tone down your rhetoric. I reitrated this point to you when we met. Apparantly you didn't take my advice to heart.
post #7 of 117
Hey everyone,

Relax, don't take it personel, and have some "good natured" fun, but not at anyone elses expense.

So.....lets see... you have this guy Wink getting into an exchange with a Rusty Guy, and two others that we can call Nordo and Wacko.

OK now....who wants to make the appointment with the group therapist,... I'll go.... if you go !

BTW does someone have a real forgiving and understanding HMO that we can tap into to cover the fee ?

Additional thought... the therapist has to be a serious skier, or we will never make any progress.... no one else would understand!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by wink (edited May 17, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 117
Pierre eh!- Thanks, I'll go one step further. I had seen plenty by the time we had unloaded from the chair and gone twenty yards to the top of the run at A-Basin. Two turns from the top confirmed my first impressions. It doesn't take long. It did not take two runs, nor did it take three runs.
post #9 of 117
Hey Rusty,

We haven't heard your real impressions yet. Either that, or I coudn't find them. The last I heard, you asked for Whacko's permission to post the good, the bad and the ugly, and he said to go for it, but you never did. If you did, could you point me there?
post #10 of 117
“Pierre eh!- Thanks, I'll go one step further. I had seen plenty by the time we had unloaded from the chair and gone twenty yards to the top of the run at A-Basin. Two turns from the top confirmed my first impressions.”

20 yards?

I suppose you can tell how fast or agile someone is based on how they walk.

That statement is just as bad as HH’s/wackos “one single solution to every problem” that wacko got slammed for and got slammed for good reason IMO.

So I guess if I signed up for a lesson from you and got off the lift and snowplowed down the ramp like I often do – you would direct me to the bunny hill?

I hope you at least continue to reevaluate your perception of the skiers skills as the day wears on. To get stuck on your “initial impression” that you had already formed prior to getting off the lift and confirmed in “20 yards” would be a shame.

the ocean doesn't want me today
post #11 of 117
Harpo, as instructors we are constantly seperating skiers in the morning at ski-off to put them into the appropriate lesson. An instructors judgement becomes very acute doing this day after day. The students just side step about 20 yeards up the hill and ski down.

Often an instructor can see even how a students steps into the fall line or initiates his first turn as to what skills he has, a second and third turn ususally confirms it unless the first turn was a fluke and that can also be determined after a couple of turns...

Though you may not be a trained teacher and have a year of full time instructing under your belt, I'm sure if you stand on the side of a hill and you watch a skier come past, you will be able to make a fairly acurate judgement as to how good the skier is.

Trained instructors pick up every movement and the resulting action, they can tell by the track left by the skis just exactly where, when and how weight was transferred, how much slippage there was in which part of the turn, if the release was sudden or gradual, etc. etc. along with observation of the skiers movements, detection of errors, correction of these errors are implemented. Otherwise why have ski instructors?

So no, if you were snow plowing from the lift to the slope, I wouldn't base my judgement on that, but if you were throwing your butt around and planting your poles in the middle of your turn, slithering heather and yon, I could make a fair judgement in the first 20 yards. And if you didn't disprove this in me making three runs with you it would stand. Hell, an hour lesson may only involve two or three runs at A-Basin.

post #12 of 117
PMS Whacko - That's 'cause Gravity's a chick magnet!

harpo - Whether you made a wedge to the top of the slope from the chair or not, yeah, we could tell a lot about you. I can tell a lot about a skier by the way they get from the place where they put their skis on, to the lift, and load the lift.

If you were to get off the lift and make a wedge, with your ass hung out, your weight a foot behind your feet, your poles waving around and a look of terrorized concentration on your face, I'd learn a lot. Likewise, if you got off the lift, made a wedge, weaving through a dozen people while simultaneously holding a conversation and buckling your boots, and not stabbing people with your poles, that would also tell me something.
post #13 of 117
That's refreshing. PMTS Wacko.
Just a small crack opening the door. Welcome out of the little world you were in. Keep this up and some of us just might want a peek in too...
Good post.

FYI in case you have not dug through the rest of the forum. (tons of stuff) you will find that most of the gang here is very well read and almost everyone here is looking to get better any way they can. Some have alliances to some groups others are very stubborn and almost all have a passion for skiing.

My post about expert 2 would be typical of any review. I tried to keep it not PSIA vs PMTS but pros and cons of the book as a book. Ask Lisamarie about my views on poor service... or bad wine service at a restaurant (I think I have mentioned it here)

My point is I think we can all work with this new side that is slowly coming out. Keep it up.
post #14 of 117
so JohnH
What were your impressions of me and my buddy standing around waiting for your group to get going? (I think I remember my buddy flirting with someone)
post #15 of 117
Quote-I suppose you can tell how fast or agile someone is based on how they walk.

Harpo- Yes I suppose I can. I think we all size folks up as we see them. I can tell a fair amount about folks by the way they pick up or carry their skis, however, I doubt you will agree. I don't become locked into an opinion and hopefully my instruction improves their skiing.

When you see a 95 year old man walking down the street, do you make an assesment. Conversely, an eighteen year old adeptly dribbling a basketball as he walks to a playground, has he "got game" based upon his ability to walk and dribble?
post #16 of 117
In response to "I suppose you can tell how fast or agile someone is based on how they walk."

I will have you all know (and anyone who knows me will gladly confirm this) that the way one walks or carries their skis may have very little if anything to do with the way they ski. I am a klutz. A true blue, certified, klutz. The only time I have ever hurt my self skiing is walking in ski boots and falling or tripping. My skis tend to unhook themselves and I drop them sometimes too. I have even purchased a little velcro doo-dah to keep them together.

I love skiing because it frees me from my clumsiness. An out of body experience every time. If you me judged my skiing by the way I walk or carry my skis, you would be sooooo wrong.

My $.02

Deep yogic breaths...
post #17 of 117
for reference re the ramp wedge...


maybe looks can SOMEtimes be a LITTLE deceiving.
post #18 of 117

sorry to perhaps embarrass you, if i did w/this post, but just to indicate I PERSONALLY would rather an instructor take a run or two with me for a more comprehensive summation of what's going on.

and please, save the "yes, buts" or qualifiers; i'm not looking for an argument. but i think that making some of these claims CAN in some extremely RARE (1 in a million, how's that?) circumstances resemble WACK'S early entry with his own claims of omniscience.

- just an intermediate
post #19 of 117

As I normally will do with people that I'm just skiing with as friends, I try not to pass judgement. That's also why I skied ahead of the two of you most of the time. It keeps me from picking apart people's skiing. When I watch people ski, I have a very hard time not giving feedback. That's why a specifically asked if you wanted feedback. Until that point, I couldn't say that I had even seen more than 2 turns you guys made. Then I saw you make about half a dozen turns, so I asked if you wanted feedback.

Thinking back to what I did see, when we first met, I think both of you move and act around the base area, very relative to your skiing abilities. There were certainly no surprises. Only that I had a little apprehension that your friend would be able to keep up with us. He did pretty well. What he lacked in technical ability, he made up for in enthusiasm and willpower (and love of speed). Those things can go a long way, and make it much easier to learn.

The trip to the lift, and from the lift to the top of a slope can tell a LOT about a skier because it shows you how they move, what their balance is like, how comfortable they are on their skis, etc. If they decide to skate, it gets even more informative. Skating invloves a lot of skiing skills. If I were to watch 100 skiers skate up a small incline to the base of a lift (say 100-200 feet), I could probably accurately guess the ability level of 90% of them.

an edit: I'm not saying I can tell exactly how the person will ski, or what their specific strengths/weakensses are, only a general one-liner overview. It DOES take time and attention to do movement analysis.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by JohnH (edited May 17, 2001).]</FONT>
post #20 of 117
ok, fair enough JohnH-nice rephrase. I would be in the other 10%.
post #21 of 117

Yeah, the other 10% (when it comes to skating) are usually better than their skating ability would lead one to conclude, because some people, especially when they are in the middle of a good learning curve, haven't spent much time figuring out how to skate.

There was one instructor that I worked with for years, who was a good skier, and level 2 cert, who looked like a total dork when he skated. But that's the exception, not the rule. Skating takes good balance, edge skills, pressure skills and some rotary ability. Someone who has an acute awareness of these, can usually skate well. Someone who is in the process of getting good with these skills, but hasn't quite fine tuned them as much, can still ski pretty well, but may have problems skating if they don't do it much.
post #22 of 117
cool. At least I'm not projecting something really strange... Good thing you guys were a little out of shape or my buddy would have died by the end of the day.. That was hard work skiing in that sticky stuff... We usually take it a little easier on him but yes he has that "go for it" quality. Tell your buddies hi and make sure your wife sees the picture of why you should not bathe the baby..
post #23 of 117

(by the way, i meant no disrespect to you instructors. i DO believe some people are EXTREMELY perceptive in their areas of expertise.)

just wanted to confess to my own "childishness" when it comes to something like trying to discern (well, guess, as in a game) people's ability level just by watching them around the base area.

what stands out to me are the people who move and act like their skis might as well be their feet. you know they're easy to spot and i admit, i get something like envious. i would feel blessed to have an instructor who IS able to just take a glance or two and be able to tell all kinds of things. i guess my point is/was that certainly SOME instructors over-rate their observation capacity just like some skiers over-rate their skill level.
post #24 of 117
I see what you are saying Ryan (literally ). Ski instruction, as a skill, is no different from skiing. It takes time, experience and training to get good at it. I would guess that 75% of the level 2 cert instructors out there are not able to really asses a skier that quickly. But some level 2 instructors are damn good at it. On the same note, some level 3 instrucotrs are not all that good at it. But not many, because you sort of need the ability to quickly and accurately asses a skier to pass the L3.

**Due to the power shortage, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off indefinitely.
post #25 of 117
I have not posted my impressions for two reasons;

a) I don't have time right now do do a good job

b) Wacko thinks SnoKarver has seen more and is hence a better judge.

SnoKarver is a good guy and can make as fair an assesment as I can. I do think their friendship MIGHT cloud the assesment, however, having met SnoKarver I doubt it would.

I have said the guy has made remarkable strides whether he's been at it one year or two. He is clearly an above average athlete. I'll take a minute to skim my issues.

I don't like to see a skier with their boots/knees together. It reminds me of 1968. PMTS teahes a narrow stance and I simply don't like the "look"I described it as being very "retro" in appearance. It looks a little like the former SS director at Breck in Tog's post. The first time I looked at the poster I said, "thats it" Is it functional? It works for Wacko and others so who am I to say. Will it work at higher levels? SnoKarver made the statement that at Levels 7/8/9 he would blend ATM with PMTS. Correct me if I misquoted you SnoKarver.

I have been working hard to ski with a very erect tib/fib. I'm trying to ski "on my skeleton" with little or no pressure on the tongue of my boot. I noted some articulation/closing in Wacko's knees/ankles.
He was a little folded up during completion of his turns, again kind of a "retro" look. I saw little extension in his turns.

Lastly his turns looked somewhat skidded. This may have been more a function of the sloppy conditions. Carefully watching his turns I saw minimal tipping.

Wacko looked "different" mainly due to his stance width. He has a good deal of "tip lead" which SnoKarver said they are working on. The "tip lead" in turn caused a little to much counter rotation

Lastly, his turns look a little static. His style of skiing is not as dynamic as it could be.

I've previously mentioned his fantastic fore/aft balance. He is very good in bumps. He doesn't get knocked around, is quick edge to edge, his upper body is quiet, great pole swng/plant/timing.

The guy is a good skier. I just think he could become a fantastic skier with a blend of his current skills and those centerline movements taught by PSIA. A wider stance, more tippng/extension would kickstart his progression.

My main concern is visual/style involving the stance. I simply think it looks "old school' or "retro" at best and have to ask the fundamental question whether it will carry him to the next level. I want to again say I'm merely a level 1 cert in PSIA, and the aforementioned are just my humble observations. He did manage to tick me off last night, however, I found his greatest assest when we skied to be his love for the sport. I think a seasoned level three PSIA instructor could turn the guy from a good skier to a great skier. Obviosly he may be able to do that via PMTS.

It's just that doggone Stein Erickson stance.
post #26 of 117

Good thing you guys were a little out of shape or my buddy would have died by the end of the day

Actually, it's a good thing that the conditions sucked. We have the uncanny ability to go completely ballistic, even when we are out of shape. I think our brains forget that our legs can't handle it. We'll get to the bottom of some steep, bumped up chute and realize our legs are fried. But by the time we get to the top of the chair, our legs have rested just long enough for us to forget the pain, so we do it again. Each time down, the legs get spent sooner and sooner. Once I get to the point where they hurt just getting off the lift, I know I'm done. Take a cruiser and call it a day (or eat lunch and do it all again!)

**Due to the power shortage, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off indefinitely.
post #27 of 117
Hey rusty,

while wacko is often out in left field with a howitzer i really think he was just giving the straight score here and didn't mean anything.

post #28 of 117
This happens quite a bit, though - people think skis close together 'look' better (I guess cause they always saw people in films etc ski that way); how close together is what experienced skiers argue about. Wacko said he first skied over 25 years ago - those early experiences probably made a huge impression!

~Michelle H.

( skiandsb@vail.net )

"Tell me I forget, teach me I remember, involve me I learn."
- Ben Franklin
post #29 of 117
Good point. I guess we all get like that. And I wonder why I always have a hard time getting up for the second day on the big trips when the first day is real good.
I think I can safely say I ski better than.....

50% of the skiers out there?<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited May 17, 2001).]</FONT>
post #30 of 117
Rusty or Sno:

Let's get it down to numbers.

Using the conventional scale, it sounds like Wacko is a 5 in a stretch.....7 (PSIA).

What do you think.
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