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Can Carve Plate Be Used For Adjustable Mounting?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone,

I am trying to figure out the best way to provide myself the ability to change the binding mount position on my new K2 ObSETHed skis. 

I'm new to skis this fat and want to have the option of playing with mount point to both learn first hand about how it affects my skiing and of course to find the sweetest spot for me on these skis.  (Not to mention there seems to be some disagreement about where to mount this specific ski.)

I've searched around, but can't find a thread that *specifically* addresses the topic of using a carve plate for doing this.  The usual answer is to go with the RailFlex binding system.  I haven't completely ruled out the RailFlex, but there are enough people who express hesitation about the RailFlex that I'd like to learn more about what I can do with a carve plate.

The best thread I could find was on tetongravity.com:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137962

It looks like I could use a Tyrolia 9mm carve plate with some FreeFlex bindings and still have lower overall height (and probably weight?) than the RailFlex (although specs on the height of bindings seems really hard to come by).

So maybe the main question is:  How "adjustable" is a carve plate?  

I realize it probably won't provide a fine-tuning solution, but I don't really understand how much "adjustability" it can provide.  If the plate is mounted at the recommended neutral position, can the bindings be moved +1cm?  -1cm?  +3cm?  -3cm?  What?

It sounds like the Tyrolia carve plate is designed to work with FreeFlex bindings and is thus at least somewhat flexible and won't be too stiff.

Also, if the bindings are moved frequently enough, is there any risk of creating problems (slop?) with the carve plate?

P.S. - I haven't ever mounted my own skis, but am handy enough, so I'm also assuming that screwing a set of bindings to the carve plate isn't rocket science.

Really appreciate tips, advice, experience.....
post #2 of 20
Yes, this could potentially work.  However, how much adjustability you will have will depend on the length of your boot sole.  The carve plate goes down to ~280mm smallest size so if you are down there you don't have any flex to move back/fore.  With a bigger boot you have more options.  Other option to look at is the Salomon power axe plate.

For max felxibility look at some of teh non-binding specific Vist plates, preferably the lighter riser type ones rather than a full race plate and drill it with a range of fitments for your bindings
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the feedback.  I don't quite follow the logic, however.  I guess what's missing is an understanding of how the carve plate mounts or accepts the binding mount (intuition initially says smaller boots would have more "adjustability").  Is there anywhere on the web I can go to see a diagram or read about how these things work?  Or can someone hold my hand here?  

The Tyrolia site doesn't tell you anything about the mounts.  I also looked at the Vist site and info on this kind of thing is missing completely (and they claim I would have to also buy their bindings).  I can't even find a page at the Salomon site for their plates.
post #4 of 20
Actually the CP13 will take boot soles from ~260mm and I'm pretty sure the same is true of the CP9 as it has the same hole pattern.

But, and its a big but, there are only 3 toe positions. There are 6 heel positions. I'll list them here...

Toe:
261mm - 292mm
293mm - 311mm
312mm - 351mm

Heel:
261mm - 274mm
275mm - 288mm
289mm - 304mm
305mm - 326mm
327mm - 336mm
337mm - 351mm

Assuming you follow the system for your BSL, you'll end up with the toe mounted in one of 3 positions. If you land in the front hole, you can move the binding -1cm or -2cm. If you land in the middle hole you can move the binding +1cm or -1cm. If you land in the rear hole you can move the binding +1cm or +2cm forward.

Edit: the situation is actually worse than this - if you're in the front toe position then you have a long BSL, so there's a good chance you're in one of the back two heel positions. In which case you can only go -1cm or nothing. The situation is opposite but equivalent with a short BSL.

A Freeflex binding has quite a long heel track, so in certain circumstances you can mount the binding 1cm short and slip the heel 1cm back in the track - which might let you use middle toe hole as the mid position even with a long BSL, but it won't really be neutral because the whole boot will be rearward of the mark. The track on the flat bindings like Mojo/LD etc. is shorter than Freeflex, so you're even more limited there.

Which really boils down to the carve plates being a poor option for the kind of fore/aft flexibility you're looking for.

As far as the Vist plates go - if you use blank plates then you could get a shop to drill 4-5 sets of holes for you (e.g. +2, +1, 0, -1, -2) at the correct BSL, for the binding of your choice. Alternatively you could go the Vist Speedlock route, but that does require Vist bindings (or the magical, mystical adapter plates that Philpug had for his Speedlock Markers once upon a fairy tale).
Edited by Squawker - 11/10/09 at 1:59pm
post #5 of 20
Okay, I'll do some numbers... assuming you follow the correct mounting procedure for you BSL these adjustments are possible:

BSL 261-274: nothing
BSL 275-288: +1
BSL 289-292: +1, +2
BSL 293-304: -1, +1
BSL 305-311: -1, +1
BSL 312-326: -1, -2
BSL 327-336: -1
BSL 337-351: nothing
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
@Squawker thanks so very very much for going out of your way to do the math.  I still can't physically see how exactly the holes would be placed such that they limit you to these possibilities, but I'll trust your numbers since you appear to be looking at one yourself.

So it seems like, at least for the Tyrolia plate, your options are slightly limited compared to a solution like RailFlex or demo binding.  But you do have the choice of mounting the plate where you want, so for those BSLs in the middle, you can presumably engineer it so you have your choice of three (consecutive) positions of your liking.

The blank Vist option you mention seems very attractive.  If those really can handle several different sets of mount positions, then that seems like a winner.  Is this something that any shop can do or is willing to do?  Would you trust most any shop to do it?

Is the blank Vist plate flexible enough (i.e., not one of the ultra-stiff race plates)?

Oh, and WHERE is this blank Vist plate?  Their website shows only three that I can see, none of which appear to be blank.
post #7 of 20
pdontthink: download the hardware catalogue from the Vist site....

http://www.vist.it/fad6ba7d-ccde-4dc6-951f-56281acfd11b.media_download

But as you fear, the blank plates are marked World Cup and I'd expect them to be pretty stiff.

Back to the CP... here are a couple of pictures that I hope will clear things up a bit.

Front screw holes CP13 plate
Heel screw holes, CP13

As you can see, this plate has been used with a BSL between 293 and 311 (based on the toe hole that is threaded) and between 289 and 304 (based on the heel hole that is threaded). To satisfy both conditions the BSL must be 293-304, so lets call it 300mm.

The middle toe hole is used, so the toe can be moved +1 or -1 using the other holes. There are also empty holes either side of the used heel hole, so the heel can be moved to match. All good, we can have -1, 0, +1 with this BSL.

Lets assume a BSL of 265mm. This would use the rearmost toe hole and the foremost heel hole. The toe could be moved forward, but there are no forward heel holes to use. The heel could be moved aft, but there are no aft toe holes to use. So what possibilities do we have? None. Same but opposite with a BSL of 340mm which would use the foremost toe hole and the rearmost heel hole. There's nowhere to go.

Any clearer? Its not obvious, I know.

We can cheat - e.g. in the short BSL case we can move the toe 1 hole forward and hope the heel track in the binding will take up the slack. It may or may not, depending on the length of the heel track and the location of the "correct" position within the track. But if we play those kind of games we've gotta be damn sure we've still got forward pressure.

CP13 laid out for BSL 265mm
Edited by Squawker - 11/11/09 at 11:44am
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 
Squawker, you're very very kind!  The pics are great and now it's all very clear.  THANK YOU.

However, it was pointed out to me that, looking at the pics of the latest Tyrolia plates, there might be more than three toe mounting positions now.  What year/model are you using?  Here's the new ones:

http://www.tyrolia.com/public/ski-bindings/ski-binding-line-200910/plates/index.html

From the pics, it looks like the newest Tyrolia plates have almost as much mounting possibilities as the RailFlex system does.  But Tyrolia isn't exactly forthcoming with details on their website about it.  Nor can I tell what the on-the-snow differences are between the Speedplate Plus, Ultraflex and Power Plate are.

ANYONE??  What's the adjustability of these newer models?  How well do they work?


I tried to grok the Vist catalog but it's really terse (mediocre translation doesn't help) and lacks descriptions and information for someone trying to understand and evaluate their equipment.  And I don't really see many dealers online, which makes me think Vist is out of my price range anyway.  That said, their Speedlock system might be a stronger alternative to RailFlex, so if anyone has experience or advice about it, by all means....
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
I was able to look at some Tyrolia technical manuals online and found information about the height of the 2009 series plates.  However, presumably because the plates are not designed specifically for this use, there is no information, even in the mounting instructions, regarding how many binding mount holes there are and how much one can play with the mount point.

The pictures are not good enough to say for certain, but I'm guessing most of them have at least 5 toe and 5 heel points.  That might be pretty decent -- many BSLs would then get -2cm, -1cm, 0cm, 1cm, 2cm (uhh, are the holes 1cm apart???).

There's no information in any of their manuals and whatnot that gives me the sales pitch for these plates.  Just a few one-liners enumerating the "features" of each plate without any details about the intended use of each plate or anything at all.  Do I have to call them?  Seek out a Tyrolia shop?
post #10 of 20
 Marker Schizo. It was made for this situation.

That Tyrolia plate is going to be heavy and stiff for this application
post #11 of 20
Really, Phil?

The weight delta between the Jester (1890g) and Jester Schizo (2200g) is 3100g -- almost a pound per pair.  While Tyrolia doesn't publish the plate weights, and my unmounted 9mm Tyrolia plates are a couple hundred miles away at the moment, I'd be surprised if they weight half that much.  As for stiffness, the whole Tyrolia line is designed to maximize flex.

Not saying that the Schizo isn't a perfectly viable option -- particularly for someone who wants to move the binding fore and aft more than once or twice.  But I think using Tyrolia plates to find the sweet spot is perfectly viable.
post #12 of 20
Consider the Tyrolia SP-130 binding. This is the demo version of the Mojo 15. 115mm brakes are available and these can be stretched to fit 120mm wide skis.

A mid sized men's boot sole 303 to 334mm, can be moved back 15mm in 7.5mm increments. The same range of boot sizes can be moved forward 30mm in the same increments.
 No tools are needed and the adjustment can be made while on the slopes.

What size boot will be used?

Michael
post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 
Schizo?

In the RailFlex thread I started last summer, I think I asked about Schizo, but hardly anyone had even seen it yet.  Those who had didn't seem too enthusiastic, not to mention it was sure to be much more expensive.

So I took another look around for info on the Schizos, and although the jury is still out (because no one's actually skied on them?), people INCLUDING YOU, Philpug (???), are still down on them. 

Interesting to hear they are that much heavier for one. 

Lots of comments about questionable construction (RailFlex gets many similar comments, but I'm not sure if such comments aren't just theoretical guesses).

Certainly expensive.

But someone claimed the height compromise you make with them is only 4mm (can anyone confirm?).

And +/-3 gives you a LOT of range of adjustment.

Given those points, and that RailFlex has been around longer, I might settle for RailFlex if I wanted to go with that kind of system.

But if we can actually get some real on-the-ground information about the new model Tyrolia plates, they might provide at least +/-2cm (or more) and be much lighter than those options and possibly just as flexible.  Philpug, do you really think the plates, some of which are called things like "UltraFlex", are going to be stiff and heavy??  I certainly don't mind screwing and unscrewing with the plates because once the sweet spot is located, I don't think I'll be moving the bindings a lot after that.
post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 
Hi Wildcat.  Thank you for your suggestion.  While I'd certainly be very interested to hear opinions on demo bindings, my general feeling is that they are going to be the least desirable option.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like they usually have as much or more height compromise, more tendency to develop slop and inaccuracies and don't seem to offer even as much adjustability as RailFlex/Schizo and possibly the plates.  The shoddy construction remarks about RailFlex (and Schizo?) would probably apply more so to demos.... and we've all seen the end-of-season sales with binders that do indeed look more suited for use as a train hitch.  :-)

Or maybe for personal use they don't end up like that.  Enlighten me.
post #15 of 20
I'm thinking about machining my own plates, sounds easy. That way I could keep them 1cm thick and be able to move my bindings way more than 2 or 3 cm. Wonder if aluminum would work OK...
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdontthink View Post

Hi Wildcat.  Thank you for your suggestion.  While I'd certainly be very interested to hear opinions on demo bindings, my general feeling is that they are going to be the least desirable option.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like they usually have as much or more height compromise, more tendency to develop slop and inaccuracies and don't seem to offer even as much adjustability as RailFlex/Schizo and possibly the plates.  The shoddy construction remarks about RailFlex (and Schizo?) would probably apply more so to demos.... and we've all seen the end-of-season sales with binders that do indeed look more suited for use as a train hitch.  :-)

Or maybe for personal use they don't end up like that.  Enlighten me.

 

New and better quality demo bindings are as reliable and secure as most recreational bindings. Older and well used rental bindings should be avoided.

The Tyrolia SP-130 is a very good binding, it has most of the performance features of the HEAD MOJO 15. Once you add a race plate like the 9mm CP9 to the freeflex bindings, the stand height of the binding & plate will equal that of the SP-130. The binding will not develop perceivable slop any faster than most other recreational bindings.

Stand height: 31 mm
DIN: 4-13
Weight: 2760 g

Features:
-Moveable Toe + Heel
-Aero One Touch Toe with TRP System
-Race Diagonal
-ABS - Anti Blocking System
-Rent One Touch Heel
-Adjustment 64/60
-Boot Sole Length 263-391

post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

Really, Phil?

The weight delta between the Jester (1890g) and Jester Schizo (2200g) is 3100g -- almost a pound per pair.

That math doesn't seem to add up.  Care to clarify?
post #18 of 20
Here's an idea, find a demo pair of ObSETHed's that you can demo, move the demo binding around to see how you like the ski in a few different places, then just mount the bindings as God intended, straight into the topsheet with no stinkin' riser.

Just to 'muddy-up' the water, the CP9 plate is two separate pieces, so you could, concievably, set them so that all three toe positions were available for a given boot sole (as long as it's not a tiny boot). A little math and you could position the plates so you are 'in the middle' and a move forward plus a move back will work. So +1/ 0 / -1 at whatever mounting point you start at. This would get tricky and is, frankly, unfair to ask of a ski tech... but it can work.

Also, the plate is plastic and every time you pull the binding/ reinstall the binding it will weaken the holes.
post #19 of 20
I think Wildcat has the best idea offered so far.  Those Tyrolia SP 130 ABS Demo Aero bindings look totally solid - all the advantages of a Railflex (just as adjustable) while not having the inevitable slop problem develop.  They even have the better "race" Aero toe (with a separate spring for the diagonal release).  In fact, I'll probably try to pick up a set of these for myself.

BTW - I was actually fairly impressed with the latest versions of all of the manufacturer's demo bindings that I rode over this past weekend.  They clearly have gotten the idea that the adjustable binding can be built without making it a bad/sloppy binding.  I think the days of looking at "demo" bindings as a decrease in performance could be behind us.  The event that would really send this over the top is if a manufacturer would come out with ONLY a completely adjustable binding in their main line (kind of like what the Railflex did).

Hmmm, I guess the Blizzard IQ-MAX system should also get thrown into this mix, but unfortunately they only work on Blizzard skis, but it's a very cool system they've developed.
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdontthink View Post

That math doesn't seem to add up.  Care to clarify?

Sorry -- extra zero.  310g, or about 11 oz.

I agree that the SP130 option is a good one.  Look/Rossignol demo bindings also tend to fare well.
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