New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

TGIF - Page 2

post #31 of 56
A bunch of great posts!  

All you guys are right, it's the wrong path to take for this tip.  

Ghost is right, you can't see it, unless you teach it directly.  

TDK nailed it by identifying the audience and Mojoman points out it can get very confusing.

RicB/4ster, do you have any ideas on how to introduce this concept in skidded turns?  I find it difficult to teach fore balanced skidding without exagerrating the fore balance -- and that can go wrong really fast.  Falling-leaf exercises and sensing pressure at different places underfoot can work, as can patience turns. But we have to be very careful about where they're getting the feedback of being "fore enough".

They're forecasting above zero here for the next week -- including night time temps.  No man made yet.
post #32 of 56
Quote:
RicB/4ster, do you have any ideas on how to introduce this concept in skidded turns?
 

Since most of the heal pushers out there have evolved from over initiated turns, a tip I would use for them is something I call the "Gravitation Initiation".  The Gravitation Initiation relies on the principles learned in the fallen leaf (friction/gravity) & the patience turn.  On a non intimidating pitch, beginning from a traverse or completion of the previous turn, gently role the skis off their edges (little toe/big toe).  Subtly retracting the inside/downhill foot will put the center of mass moving in the right direction & enough pressure to the skis shovel to let gravity draw the skis into the fall line.  If done on the right terrain & under proper supervision there is no need for any pivoting or rotation.  Gravity & ski design will help develop the turn.  As the turns develop, the ability to ski into counter & angulation or an anticipated position, will help with the following release & initiation.  To some this may be interpreted as a two footed release ;).  Another helper would be to lead the skier over some rolls, small bumps or fall-aways.

Does that make sense?  We have cold, snowmaking conditions & storms in the forecast.  If it stays warm up there, you could come down here & I could show you.  We should be skiing in the next couple of weeks.

JF

Canada just beat the US in the speed skating relay.
post #33 of 56
Thread Starter 

My guess is that the consept is limited to carving, and carving is edge locked. The big challenge is to get your skis on edge and carve without turning your feet. And keep your edges locked all through the turn without turning your feet. IMO TGIF is not aimed to be a versatile consept. As I said earlier, you always let your tips go into the turn first so what is the point of including all turns into this consept. Insted it targets the bare essential skill of carving, balancing over a ski that is locked onto and running along its edges.

Skiing is pritty simple but people want to make it more complicated than it is. You have basicly two types of turning techniques: carving and skidding. Carving has become very popular over the years because of the modern carving ski that let you arc turns with functional turn radius at comfortable speed and the wide flat and nicel groomed slopes that did not exist to this extent before. The trick is to use the ski as its "primerily" designed and let the ski turn you. But the ski does not have to be edge locked while turning. It can be skidded as well. As it skids through the turn the shape of the ski helps with steering the ski into the turn since the showel is wider. Sometimes it can be hard to keep the ski skidding since it tends to hook up and run along its edges if turn radius matches the built in turn radius of the ski. This is a common problem when you teach beginners on the bunny hill. When you skidd the trick is to create a skid angle and maintain and controll it through out the turn.

So when you want to use the modern carving ski as its designed find a nicely groomed moderately steep flat pist and use TGIF. When you dont want or you cant carve due to terrain limitations or because of wanting to ski a little slower skidd your turns. And feel free to do everything in between.

post #34 of 56
I use this tip in advanced groups in off piste settings because that's where I teach a lot. This focus when accomplished, keeps the ski tips in contact with the snow and working early in the turn so I wouldn't say that it is limited to only skidded turns. This tieas in with that monster discussion about steering angle and how the ski tip changes directrio nof the ski thus allowing the ski to effect change on the skier direction. I think of it as the tip leading the tail, as opposed to the tip being the pivot point, or the pivot point being ahead of the skiers foot.

I'm traveling right now so I hardly have time until this evening.
post #35 of 56
4ster,  I think that since the outside leg was retracted, that would qualify as a one-footed release.  But I get your "drift".

It just occurred to me that "drifting" could be a good word to use to describe the sensation we're after. 
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

The trick is to use the ski as its "primerily" designed and let the ski turn you. But the ski does not have to be edge locked while turning. It can be skidded as well. As it skids through the turn the shape of the ski helps with steering the ski into the turn since the showel is wider. Sometimes it can be hard to keep the ski skidding since it tends to hook up and run along its edges if turn radius matches the built in turn radius of the ski. This is a common problem when you teach beginners on the bunny hill. When you skid the trick is to create a skid angle and maintain and controll it through out the turn.
 


TDK6,

Since Rick introduced the term, this is the first time I have heard the term skid-angle used in a descriptive way.  It's quite good, since it focuses on the skidding aspect of the steering angle. Bravo!

Would be more accurate to say "When you ski, the trick is to create a steering angle with partially engaged edges and control both steering angle and edge angle through the turn"?

I'm worried that the idea of just edging slightly and adopting a fore balance could be taking us down the wrong path -- to the "park and ride" skidder.  Just like a carver engages their edges and stands on the ski like a statue, the "park and ride" skidder could do exactly the same thing.  There are countless examples of these people on the hills that are stuck in one position throughout their skidded turns.  

We've got to get them moving somehow.
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

4ster,  I think that since the outside leg was retracted, that would qualify as a one-footed release.  But I get your "drift".

It just occurred to me that "drifting" could be a good word to use to describe the sensation we're after. 

 

I wasn't trying to imply that it was a two-footed release, just that it could be construed as such.  It is really the timing of the retraction or pullback & edge release that makes or breaks this turn entry.  If done properly it can enhance the flow & direction of the COM for all levels.  My description was geared more for a lower end skier or a habitual heel pusher.

Drifting, guiding, steering are all good descriptors.  I didn't want to use the word steering as it has already created enough confusion in other threads.  Anything that will enhance patience to the student & allow them to let the turn develop is what we're after.

To TDK,  I think of skidding & carving as a scale.  The less you skid a turn, the closer it is to carving.

Thanks,
JF
post #38 of 56
 No worries 4ster.

You are right about enhancing the flow of the COM for all levels.  The "knee drive" thread brought out the idea of knee pointing as providing a direction for that flow, via an "O" frame.  That movement cue could help since the knee is pointing at a diagonal, so more pressure will be created if the skier "follows the knee".
post #39 of 56
When I visualize TGIF, its not just in turns.  In moguls or even wash-board traverses, think of pulling your skis back (moving hips forward) as you descend into the trough, then moving the hips back as you contact the transition and absorb the bump.  This drives the tips into the troughs and can be combined with edging to effect a turn.  
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

When I visualize TGIF, its not just in turns.  In moguls or even wash-board traverses, think of pulling your skis back (moving hips forward) as you descend into the trough, then moving the hips back as you contact the transition and absorb the bump.  This drives the tips into the troughs and can be combined with edging to effect a turn.  


 


as well as control speed.
post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

When I visualize TGIF, its not just in turns.  In moguls or even wash-board traverses, think of pulling your skis back (moving hips forward) as you descend into the trough, then moving the hips back as you contact the transition and absorb the bump.  This drives the tips into the troughs and can be combined with edging to effect a turn.  

 

Found it (Thanks Bob)...Like this:




And here's another version:



And a "real" version, featuring Willi Furr:

post #42 of 56
Yes, Cirquerider--as these images clearly show, fore-aft movements are at least as important as up-down movements when absorbing bumps. In my experience, the most likely reason a skier will have difficulty absorbing bumps is a focus only on the up-down flexion-extension movements (ie. "pumping my knees up and down like pistons"), without an accompanying understanding of the fore-aft movements that go along with them. Even worse is a misunderstanding that prevents these movements--such as trying to keep your hips directly over your feet, or trying to keep your upper body always upright.

Quote:
When I visualize TGIF, its not just in turns.  In moguls or even wash-board traverses...
Indeed! This is the concept of the so-called "virtual bump"--in reverse! The very same fore-aft and flexion-extension (up-down, long-short) movements of the feet and legs beneath the upper body (including the pelvis) occur in turns and in bumps, for pretty much the very same reasons.

Best regards,
Bob
post #43 of 56
...and, for what it's worth, the second most likely reason a skier will find difficulty with these movements is "rotary mechanics" that conflict with them. Specifically, the ubiquitous upper body rotation that defines the turns of so many skiers who lack refined rotary skills (ie. leg rotation) almost invariably involves an extension of the legs to unweight the skis at the very moment that these animations show the legs most deeply flexed.

Best regards,
Bob
post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post


Since most of the heal pushers out there have evolved from over initiated turns, a tip I would use for them is something I call the "Gravitation Initiation".  The Gravitation Initiation relies on the principles learned in the fallen leaf (friction/gravity) & the patience turn.  On a non intimidating pitch, beginning from a traverse or completion of the previous turn, gently role the skis off their edges (little toe/big toe).  Subtly retracting the inside/downhill foot will put the center of mass moving in the right direction & enough pressure to the skis shovel to let gravity draw the skis into the fall line.  If done on the right terrain & under proper supervision there is no need for any pivoting or rotation.  Gravity & ski design will help develop the turn.  As the turns develop, the ability to ski into counter & angulation or an anticipated position, will help with the following release & initiation. 


Does that make sense? 

 


Sure does make sense, 4ster.  I teach it in my Basic Edging DVD. 

I call it Falline Finders.  It teaches a student how to let the ski design and gravity produce a passive turn inittition that is completely push/pivot free.  Fore balance is a key ingredient, just as it is in the falling tips drill, which proceeds the falling leaf drill. 

Later, a more active steered initiation that allows the student to take contol of the turn shape right from the git-go is introduced, with the objective to still keep the initiation push/pivot free. 
post #45 of 56
Bob, is this what you were trying to get me to wrap my mind around when I was having confidence troubles "pointing them down the fall line" in the bumps?
I can't recall what it was you said to me, but it worked, and I gained a ton of confidence "pointing them"
Not trying to confuse this thread if I'm off base, but I wondered, after reading this.

Overcoming 20+ years of keeping up with the boyz even if it meant a series of bad moves is my nemesis. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

...and, for what it's worth, the second most likely reason a skier will find difficulty with these movements is "rotary mechanics" that conflict with them. Specifically, the ubiquitous upper body rotation that defines the turns of so many skiers who lack refined rotary skills (ie. leg rotation) almost invariably involves an extension of the legs to unweight the skis at the very moment that these animations show the legs most deeply flexed.

Best regards,
Bob
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

...the ubiquitous upper body rotation that defines the turns of so many skiers who lack refined rotary skills (ie. leg rotation) almost invariably involves an extension of the legs to unweight the skis at the very moment that these animations show the legs most deeply flexed.

 

Absolutely.  If ya wanna twist them buggers, ya gotta unweight em.  Those default habits are so hard to break, and when you take them into the bumps they can really make a mess of things.   
post #47 of 56
Thread Starter 
Tell me guys, there was a suggestion earlier in this thread that shifting your weight way forward and pressuring the tips of the skis would result in a tails of skis braking loos and ski starting to turn in the old fashion way. Not carving that is. Im now wondering if that would not increase the skidding angle all along the turn?
post #48 of 56
Tom, the best description I can think of is to "rock" your turns.  Pressuring the tips from the hips with a near-simultaneous retraction and edging and skiing into the edge in what I have heard here as a cross-under does not result in a slipped turn.  This can also be accomplished with the lightening of the inside ski rather than simultaneous edge release to achieve very similar results.  Teh sensation of pulling the foot )or feet) back is the same as the retraction I am describing here.
post #49 of 56
In my learning process, the most important phrase in that video is "Be patient".

I remember the first time I felt carving and basically, it is very counter intuitive.
You have to let yourself drop on one side or the other, as if you would like to land
neeling. When you drop, there is a half second where you are actually dropping,
but then the skies grip and turn and simply race under you, picking you up!

I learned to put 60-40% pressure on the outside ski but pretty balanced.

Hope this helps someone figure carving out!
post #50 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

Tom, the best description I can think of is to "rock" your turns.  Pressuring the tips from the hips with a near-simultaneous retraction and edging and skiing into the edge in what I have heard here as a cross-under does not result in a slipped turn.  This can also be accomplished with the lightening of the inside ski rather than simultaneous edge release to achieve very similar results.  Teh sensation of pulling the foot )or feet) back is the same as the retraction I am describing here.
 

I do not follow you here Im sorry. Are you using the word "retracton" for pulling your feet back or for lifting them up? The slipped turn I was refering to was when slipping was intentionally done. IMO carving intention is to arc the ski along its edge with no skidding angle.
post #51 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGoa View Post

In my learning process, the most important phrase in that video is "Be patient".

I remember the first time I felt carving and basically, it is very counter intuitive.
You have to let yourself drop on one side or the other, as if you would like to land
neeling. When you drop, there is a half second where you are actually dropping,
but then the skies grip and turn and simply race under you, picking you up!

I learned to put 60-40% pressure on the outside ski but pretty balanced.

Hope this helps someone figure carving out!
 



Thanks for posting MG. And for being so honest and pinnpointing the core issues of carving. Yes, I knnow for a fact that your advice to "be patient" at the top of the turn and wait for the skis to start turning in their own time and to "drop" sideway and let the skis come arround and race in under you can help many many many to figure out carivng. Its pritty simple, TGIF!
post #52 of 56
Thread Starter 

Bump

post #53 of 56

Funny TDK, I was just about to start a new thread on this subject then saw this old one!   

 

I am not so sure the acronym TGIF fits what the boys were doing in the video as accurately as it could be.   TGIF could also describe a more steered or pivoted turn entry where the tips go down the hill vs. tails going out (ex: pivot slips).  

 

You know how I like spectrums and blends so I can see another one here with this concept...  As we ski more toward the pivoting end of the spectrum (pivot slips) the tips should seek the fall line first, and as we move toward the carving end of the spectrum it would seem the skis stay where they are and merely tip (change edges) as our mass goes down the hill first!?  Kinda like what Chris and Michael were doing.

post #54 of 56

I haven't watched the TGIF clip in a while.  Overall I like it and agree with most of what they say.  I am always teaching a patient initiation and letting the skis design do a lot of the work.  I am bothered a bit by the idea that the skier is riding the skis that seems to come through from this short clip.  To me the skier does start with the initiation and continues to guide the skis through input through out the arc.  These inputs include edging, pressure, and rotary movements and should not be passive.  I ski the mountain, the mountain doesn't ski me.  I also think that the TGIF concept has a much broader application than a purely edge locked carve type of turn.  To me a well executed schmear is not a pivot, but a deliberately shaped arc where the tails do follow the tips.  Frankly I can't understand why so many people seem so intent on pure carved turns like they are the holy grail of skiing.   Edge locked turns, while fun, are limiting and most skiers that I see get stuck into a park and ride scenario and are not dynamic.  I think it's funny that most of my level 8 students are very good (too good) at getting on their edges, but are weak at releasing them.      

post #55 of 56
Thread Starter 

Bud and Teton, Im not sure the acronym TGIF is politically correct. But that is what they chose to use. And they deffinetly wanted to limit the turning to edge locked. Is edge locked carving the wholy grail of skiing? Maybe it is. On a groomer it deffinetly gives skiing a whole different meaning. For some its boring for others its not. If you dont like high speed and performance skiing on a flat hard groomer in the morning mimicing (in your head) WC racing then this is not the consept for you but I have met very few skiers that learned to ski TGIF and did not get hooked. I was stuck in the teaching rutt for many years but TGIF got me out skiing on my own again. It also opened up the easier slopes of ski areas and made it fun to ski with my family.

 

You guys are following in the same tracks of most of the others posting here before you. You want to include steered turns into the consept. You guys should let go of such thaughts and let the TGIF consept be what it is: clean carving. Its a technique of its own. Dont ski the mountain. Become one with the mountain.

post #56 of 56

You really need to get out more and ski some big mountains and get off piste a bit more brother!  That corduroy groomer stuff is fogging your mind!

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching