or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

TGIF

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
TGIF: Tips Go In First

Here is a very cool consept of how to carve. Be patient at the top of the turn. Let the skis turn you and not the other way arround. Great stuff. What do you guys think?

http://www.thesnowpros.org/index.php/PSIA-AASI/video-gallery/turning-with-your-tips

EDIT: could not embedd the link.
post #2 of 56
Good skiing from the Instructors, but giving and leaving control to your skis is never a good idea. Besides they really ski very controlled and active and dynamic in that video, not passive at all.
So in my opinion the demo shows something else as to what they say. Besides this is too generalized and misguiding especially for the less skilled skiers.
post #3 of 56
I don't know if that was their point SE. About two thirds the way through they expand upon the saying a bit. Follow you tips instead of washing out the tails seems to be the theme.
post #4 of 56
Maybe in this application, untracked cord and hero snow. But not in all conditions.

It's no doubt good skiing but in the middle of the clip, it looks like they're hurrying to catch up to their skis. It is great to let the skis do the work but ya gotta keep up with em.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. Anyone else see what I am trying to say?
post #5 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Anyone else see what I am trying to say?

That and more. Although letting the ski do the work is a good direction I think.
post #6 of 56
 Sheesh - tough crowd!  I thought their skiing looked terrific.
post #7 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

I don't know, maybe it's just me. Anyone else see what I am trying to say?

Pull the feet back?
post #8 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I don't know if that was their point SE. About two thirds the way through they expand upon the saying a bit. Follow you tips instead of washing out the tails seems to be the theme.

To me, that would imply staying square and rotating into the turn.  

I thought the theme was to let the ski turn you, so you don't have to turn the feet. Demoing only arc to arc makes it look like TGIF is all about carving.  

I think they have generated the same confusion about what the tip actually does that LeMaster was trying to clear up when he spoke of the different steering angles.
post #9 of 56
I don't see the video as anything more than a presentation that incorporates a well used acronym to suggest letting the skis go where they are pointing instead of pushing the tails out. Which is something they point out in the videa. I actually use TGIF in two other applications (when showing newbies how to get their boots into their bindings and when teaching a child how to put on their shoes. The toes go somewhere and the heel follows.) So it's probably not something I will adopt to describe the tail following the tip through the turn. Same idea though.
post #10 of 56
Hey, it's a "ski tip" with a simple message.  You don't need to push the skis around to have them work for you.  That was some relaxed skiing on easy terrain IMO.  I think they get their message across pretty simply & clearly.

JF
post #11 of 56
Thread Starter 
Finally some feedback, great. Yes, its a "ski tip". There are many 110 pages and + books written on skiing so its obviously not possible to include "everything" in one 4min video clip. People posting here frequently should know this. 

Just in case someone has a hearing problem, Ive transkribed the conversation here below. In short: simply tip your skis on edge, be patient and let the skis do the work for you. Just balance and enjoy the ride. And enjoy the Gs  . 

**************************************************************************

Hi, Im Chris....
Hi, Im Mike....
C: Todays tip is TGIF, that is tips go in first.
M: The way I think of that is allowing your skis to turn you, not you turning your skis.
C: Its a great feeling when the showel engages and the rest of the ski follows that through the arc of the turn.
M: Yes, use the ski as its designed, you dont waste all kind of energy tossing your feet arround all day.
C: Those feelings are great, when you get that G from that ski its incredible.
M: So notisse when you watch Chris, you can see that he is really patient at the beginning of the turn and he allows the design of the ski to take over the turning for him. You can see the tip engage and the tail follow that tip all the way through his turns.
C: Whenever watching Mike ripp notisse the ski engage at the top of the turn and the rest of the ski follow through. He stays balanced, he is patient and he works the ski from the tip to the tail. Right into his next turn.
M: So when I talk about the skis turning you vs you turning the skis what I mean is that you take the your skis, you put them on the side and you are patient, you allow the design of the ski to affect your direction change and not you chopping them sideways.
C: So remember with TGIF, when the tip goes in first and the the rest of the ski follows, there is no feeling like it.
M: Yes, use the ski as its designed to work therefore the ski turns you vs you turning the ski.

Chris and Mike
PSIA

*************************************************************************

Excellent work Chris and Mike and keep it up
post #12 of 56
 "Use the ski as it's designed to work therefore the ski turns you vs. you turning the ski."



This is very contradictory to the amount of time that instructors spend doing pivot slips, hop turns and stem christies.  You could re-think and rebuild skiing completely around that quote. 
post #13 of 56
In all fairness, do instructors really spend that much time doing pivot slips, hop turns and stem christies?  They do them sometimes, when its appropriate and as they should, but I would not make a blanket statement generalization like that..its not really accurate IMHO.

That being said, last year I asked a member of my regional tech team why they even include at all the good ol' short swing turn in the certification exam.  Seems old school to me, and it is.  And he agreed with me that it is old school and not the primary focus.  However, what he also indicated is that they have seen an emerging pattern of skiers with very poor rotary skills, due to over-reliance on sidecut.  The short swing turn is therefore included in the certification exam in order for the instructor himself to develop some rotary skills and demonstrate that he has those skills to a point of some precision to be able to execute a series of short swing turns. 

And for those of you that think the short swing rotary based turn should just come naturally with no practice at all, think again.  I have watched a clinic full of instructors struggle for several hours to get it right and still not get there.  And it was glaringly obvious to me that they did in fact have deficient rotary skills, for exactly the reason the tech team guy told me.  However, they all knew how to ride their sidecuts, no problem.

I do not think this video from Chris and Mike is at all meant to say that rotary now sucks.  They're just saying, for those people that don't know what its like to ride the sidecut, try it.
post #14 of 56
That's fair enough.  Thanks.

I just found it ironic.  Now I find it even more ironic. 
post #15 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 "Use the ski as it's designed to work therefore the ski turns you vs. you turning the ski."



This is very contradictory to the amount of time that instructors spend doing pivot slips, hop turns and stem christies.  You could re-think and rebuild skiing completely around that quote. 

 



What exactly is contradictory about learning how to carve on a groomer and how to ski bumps and powder? When you carve you use the skis side cut and the way it turns all by itself as you tip it. Tipping and balancing skills. When you want to brush some speed of your turns, turn much tighter than the sidecut, ski more in the fall line, ski slower, controll your speed, take some air, avoid accelleration at the start of the turn, add controll, suddenly stop, wedge, inspect a racing track, ski moguls, powder, steeps, crudd etc you need to be able to turn your feet.
post #16 of 56
I liked the message.  Most of their turns showed them doing pretty much what they saying to do too ( I did notice a turn or two where the ski was turned a bit by other means, perhaps by pivot-slip-practice-ingrained habit, particularly that shot from the rear).

The message was clear to me. Instead of pointing the skis where they wanted to go, they were tipping the skis and letting the ski's design do the turning for them.
post #17 of 56
 tdk,

you can use the skis sidecut to do more than just carve.  The way that TGIF is presented, it makes me think that it's only about carving.  Using edge angles lower than critical angle will also help make the skis turn you.

That's what I find contradictory -- there is little to no time spent on letting the ski turn you at low edge angles.  It seems that we're either carving or forcefully redirecting the skis.  
post #18 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
The message was clear to me. Instead of pointing the skis where they wanted to go, they were tipping the skis and letting the ski's design do the turning for them.
 

Yes, that was the message .
post #19 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 tdk,

you can use the skis sidecut to do more than just carve.  The way that TGIF is presented, it makes me think that it's only about carving.  Using edge angles lower than critical angle will also help make the skis turn you.
 

Why always try to outsmart and question everything? Why not learn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
That's what I find contradictory -- there is little to no time spent on letting the ski turn you at low edge angles.  It seems that we're either carving or forcefully redirecting the skis.  
 

You are correct. Its eather or, but a redirection of the skis doesent need to be forcefull. The best place to do that is when your edge angles are the lowest. At transition. The skid angle you need for a skidded turn is best created at transition or shortly after. One easy way of doing this is when you hold on to your upper body counter and let your legs unwind as you start your new turn anticipated and let your skis swing arround. But thats an other "ski tip". Or you can unweight and over steer your skis as pressure decreases at transition. An other tip. Or do active steering whatever that is but that too is an other tip. But this is a tip on how to carve.
post #20 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I liked the message.  Most of their turns showed them doing pretty much what they saying to do too ( I did notice a turn or two where the ski was turned a bit by other means, perhaps by pivot-slip-practice-ingrained habit, particularly that shot from the rear).
 

Dont be too kritical. Maybe there was an inside ski skidding for a moment but nobody is perfect. Its hard to do perfect demos and even harder to do a perfect video. Cut the guys some slack. IMO all turns were done by TGIF. I was bothered by some things in the video that we do differently where I ski but the consept is dead on. Thats exaclty how I was teaching carving back in the early 90s and how I was thaught back in the late 70s. Must have been arround longer than that.
post #21 of 56
 tdk6,

I'm not talking about unwinding, which is another rotary skill, I'm talking about low edge angles with forward pressure.  

The ski will want to turn without the application of a rotary force.  The skis will turn themselves *without* caving.  Tips Go In First can be appropriate for skidded turns as well. 

I just want to extend TGIF to use the technology of the ski in more situations.  It will help people that are trying to carve with the TGIF not to give up if they can't get an edge-lock right away.  So long as TGIF, they are doing it right.  Locking the edge is much more about edge angle.
post #22 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



Dont be too kritical. Maybe there was an inside ski skidding for a moment but nobody is perfect. Its hard to do perfect demos and even harder to do a perfect video. Cut the guys some slack. IMO all turns were done by TGIF. I was bothered by some things in the video that we do differently where I ski but the consept is dead on. Thats exaclty how I was teaching carving back in the early 90s and how I was thaught back in the late 70s. Must have been arround longer than that.

Not trying to criticise their turns, I just wouldn't want to be accused of making an incorrect statement, hence the qualification that there may have been couple that weren't as stated.
post #23 of 56
I see where BigE is coming from.
All of their turns were (aside from a few minor imperfections) of the non-skidded, edge-locked variety.  Perhaps they need to make another tip video where they skid some turns using tipping and fore aft weight distribution alone to control the turn, just to prove that the technique isn't limited to carving an edge-locked arcs.
post #24 of 56
 Right on Ghost!  I'd be very interested to see an instructional video about a skidded and non-pivoted turn.
post #25 of 56
Thread Starter 
Ghost and E, I think that the TGIF consept should be limited to edge-locked variety solely. In a way the tip goes in first in any turn right? Or is there a turn where the tip does not go in first other than if you are skiing switch. There is no point in doing that, calling everything TGIF. Its a specific consept only for carving and for good reason. People that have been turning their leggs and skidding their turns all their lives have tremendous problems with initiating the turn with edges locked. And the other way arround. There is a huge difference between the two categories. 

The questions you guys should be asking is how to tip and how to balance. I can see now that you want to take the topic into own territory but step out of your comfort zone. Only by dooing that you will learn. If thats what you want to do. The ski tip is brilliant.
post #26 of 56
I'm not so sure their TGIF concept was meant to be limited to edge locked carved turns.  I think their point was more about utilizing ski design for efficient turns.  Ghost & BigE's idea would certainly be a viable intermediate step on the path away from heal pushing.
JF
post #27 of 56
The problem is that only edge-locked arc carving is truly effective at demonstrating the difference in the technique.  If they were doing skidded turns without directly and deliberately pointing the tips, merely allowing the shape tipping and tip pressure to turn skis around in a skidded turn, it would be difficult to observe that is what they were doing, for anybody that really needed to see that difference.  It would be " I'm not rotating my skis".  "Yes, you are.", "am not", "are too.", etc.
post #28 of 56
If you wtach the video from the perspective of an intermediate, what they are saying is pretty clear--you really don't have to rangle or push out on the skis to get them turn. They are not addressing WC racers, but skiers who probably never have had the experience or confidence to use the ski to their advantage. In that sense, I don't see what else they could have said to convince someone that there is a more efficient way of doing things. I don't think a detailed technical expose of carving, edge-lock etc. would serve any purpose but to confuse the intended audience.  They kept it simple and to-the-point, in a way that would perhaps inspire the intended audience to perhaps see what this is all about.
post #29 of 56
I agree, better to keep it simple and effective.  Once they get the point they can expand it on their own.
post #30 of 56
Skidded turns are where I use this focus primarily. Teaching in steeps and bumps it can be particularly effective. This can be an add on to pulling both feet back as we enter a new turn, or it can be a stand alone focus that achieves the same outcome. It is a catchy phrase and as such people tend to remember it. The only limits we face using a concept are those we place on ourselves. Certainly all practical applications of a concept cannot be covered in such a short clip.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching