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Angulation & Inclination at Turn Entry

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
In another thread Skinerd posted a response well suited to start a related topic, one I thought I'd pull into separate discussion since I'd like to approach it from a different perspective than the existing thread was pursuing.

His input there was...
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinerd View Post

... I would guess that the moment you to begin to create angulation then you can reverse it and widen the radius. When this happens depends on your what you are trying to achieve but in many cases there would be at least some angulation well before the apex of the turn. ...

My response in that thread was that this goes hand-in-hand with Directional Movements at turn finish which enable (or disable) early edge-engagement.

As I responded there...

A major role of Angulation is to greatly increase our turning/balance range of options.  If a skier is Angulated to some degree with a large component of ski-tipping caused by it, then that portion of ski-tipping can be reduced while maintaining their current state of balance (all else being equal) just by un-Angulating.  In theory, this lets the skier increase or decrease turn radius while not having to change overall CM inclination and thereby remain in balance for the changed radius.

"In theory" because it's not quite perfect due to slope-caused rates of acceleration/deceleration, snow conditions, etc.  It's also affected a bit by body type and the way a skier actually Angulates (meaning from waist, hip sockets and/or knees). Ultimately, it still delivers maximum options.



The ideas I'd like to bring up and explore here are related to Turn-Entry Lateral Balance methods and the attributes that support those methods. 

---
As I see it, our current state of lateral balance (and directional movement) just prior to entering a new turn enables/enhances (or disables/disrupts) three turn-entry options. 

Three particular ways to enter a new turn are:
  • Whole-Body Inclination
  • Angulation (meaning progressively increasing Angulation)
  • Reverse Angulation (meaning still Angulated to support the old turn)

There are upsides and downsides to each method. 

* Whole-Body Inclination (WBI) is easier (and more instinctive) so I suspect most people start out this way, limiting their turn-entry options.   WBI generally produces a slower crossing into the new turn and a slower transition onto the new edges providing a longer, more progressive turn entry.  This method also leaves open the option to begin Angulating at any time thereafter to control our turn radius while maintaining lateral balance. This method is only a problem when the skier isn't able to do anything else, or is unable/unwilling to incorporate Angulation at will.

* Progressive Angulation into a new turn is more difficult as it's not instinctive to "reach downhill" with the pelvis/hips while moving through transition across the hill.  This is uncomfortable in that it feels like we're leaning our tush out to the side dropping off while our feet are left behind (and we are doing just that).  This method allows us to progressively control edge-angle right through transition into the new turn while continuously maintaining lateral balance.  In many cases skiers using this method may appear to be "banking" right at turn entry - but you'll see them quickly begin Angulating to shape the new turn rather than continuing to 'bank' for turn shaping.


* The final method of turn entry is Reverse Angulation.  This is where the skier enters the new turn still visibly Angulated from the old turn (effectively 'Reverse-Angulated' for the new turn). 

This happens when the skier completes the old turn in a very flexed/Angulated state and simply topples over (or dives) down-slope to begin the new turn.  This skier appears to be 'diving' headfirst into each new turn and immediately goes from high Angulation on one side to high Angulation on the other side.   Rarely do we see this skier "straighten out" during transition.

This method feels safer as we're much closer to the surface and it's what we instinctively do when jumping off a rooftop or bed of a truck - we get our CM as low as we can before launching our leap so as to reduce our landing impact.  From this crouched position we can also reach farther downhill with our extending/twisting feet to set new edges and absorb each turn-finish more forcefully - thus controlling our speed on steeps (effectively leaping from turn-finish to turn-finish - even though our skis complete their circumnavigation of the turn).

Note that this is NOT the same as progressively migrating from old-turn Angulation to new-turn Angulation.  This is an abrupt transition of the pelvis across the skis often seen in Park & Ride skiers who go from one parked position over the edges on the left to a new parked position on the right.  This skier seems to hold their old Angulated position until the last moment, then switch to the other side.


---
With these three methods of turn-entry in mind, what might be the turn-exit requirements to optimize each method? 

* For WBI turn entries, I suggest we need a good deal of cross-slope momentum since we're likely to see a slow transition from old-edges to new-edges.

* For Progressive Angulation at turn entry, cross-slope momentum increases our options, but isn't really required. (Though the less cross-slope momentum we have, the fewer our options.)

* Reverse Angulation into turn entry is such an abrupt thing that it doesn't require any cross-slope momentum and is even supported by continuous down-slope momentum.


Thoughts?  Comments?  Tomatoes and Rotting Produce?

.ma
post #2 of 21
Turn entry and how we move to start a turn has been discussed so many times. Sadly the connection to the greater picture is not usually included in these discussions. So kudos to you for asking how our exit from one turn affects the entry into the next turn. You model seems to be similar to Lemaster's model that talks about getting set up for the next control phase once we exit the current control phase. IMO he noticed a very strong and active phase where the racers work the ski very hard along with a floaty transition to the start of the next strong and active phase. In a way it's a return to the Mahre's Float, Touch , Sting model. Although in today's race world that strong phase can occur in any third of the turn. Which means the transition can be very short like when we move that strong phase into the first third of the turn, or it can be very long like when we move the strong phase to the last third of the turn.
That is a very specialized example though and most recreational skiers gravitate to the less dynamic round line model we have been teaching for the last few years.
Whole body inclination uses the feet as an anchor as the body move back and forth like the arm of a metronome. It's almost implied by this maneuver that the body is pretty tall and not much angulation is used or needed. ILE during the last part of the current turn works very well to facilitate this type of transition.
Progressive angulation is actually a combination of an inclinated turn entry and an angulated turn finish. How we exit the current turn can vary but the Com needs to migrate over the skis to get back into an inclinated stance. Although it needs to be understood that since the body is pretty much in the position it needs to be in, it's the legs and hips that are re-aligning beneath the relatively stable torso. Anticipation and a countered stance are usually important elements in this type of transition. ILE, OLF and a combination of both are possible in this type of transition
.Reverse angulation as you call it is similar to progressive angulation except as the CoM passes over the BoS the hip angulation is maintained so the shoulders preceed the body into the new turn. Cyclist use this a lot in an effort to keep the bike more erect as they lean their body into the new turn. Another version of this is a shoulder roll / hand and arm dropping back before releasing the old turn but since this involves a rotary component I'm not sure you want this included in your thread. The important concept in these maneuvers is the upper body or the entire torso preceeds the legs into the new turn. ILE is the easiest way to do this transition but OLF is certainly possible and would provide a faster cross over.
I'm sure others can add a lot more examples and details to this basic overview of some of the possible transitions.   
post #3 of 21
 The COM need not pass over the BOS in reverse angulation -- it can easily go around behind the feet.  This is the danger of such a transition -- the hips can easily be dumped back and inside, dumping the CM onto the tails of the ski at turn entry.
post #4 of 21

E maybe you need to draw what you mean. I'm seeing the CoM external to the pelvis and hips when we move the body into an angulated stance. Doesn't it automatically move diagonally forward as we angulate? Are you meaning the pelvis drops back and inside? Or are you saying the skiers stance as a whole is doing so?

post #5 of 21
 There is nothing automatic about fore/aft balance movements and angulation.  I am saying that the pelvis can easily drop back and inside in the rush to get to the new edges as the old angulated position is released.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
I'd agree the CM needn't pass precisely over the BoS, it just needs to go past it laterally. We certainly see a lot of backseat skiers who clearly have their CM pass behind a line drawn up from the feet.  Still, this is more of a specialized case of a wayward element seen during transition rather than a 'kind' of transition.


"...back and forth like the arm of a metronome"   - So that's what those little buggers are called!  I never liked the term 'inverted pendulum' but couldn't remember what those little devices were called. Thanks! 

Also, I'd agree much of the Progressive Angulation we see at turn entry starts from an upright stance (what I called WBI) but I think it can also start from a very flexed stance.  As long as our skier moves the pelvis progressively from old-turn inside to new-turn inside we could call it Progressive Angulation. 

I isolated the Reverse Angulation idea specifically because it uses a different pattern - upper body leading into the new turn, often 'holding a position' for the first moments of that new turn.  Yep, probably some upper body rotation in there to make it happen as well but more importantly, it reduces the skier's turn-entry edge angle possibilities (generally in exchange for a feeling of comfort delivered by holding onto the old edges an extra moment or two).

.ma
post #7 of 21
Agreed that a flexed yet symmetrical stance is one form of what you classified as a progressive angulation. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't.
post #8 of 21
Ive been following this thread a bit but havent really gotten a grip of it. Isnt "reverse angulation" simply angulating the wrong way? What does it have to do with the CoM trawelling over the BoS?

IMHO reverse angulation, sometimes being called hip rotation on this side of the atlantic, is something many skiers do in each and every turn, not just one. Its not angulation leftover from previous turn. Therefore its a move where you move you hips from outside in the previous turn to outside in the next turn. The more flexed you are in your knees and the more you brake at the waist the greater the rotational component. It certainly makes turning easier but is a very bad habbit and its wrong. Check out my "bad rotation" thread for a demo of negative angulation as one component in deteriorating skiing.

E pointed out that its not necessry to move the CoM over the BoS in reverse angulation. It can travel behind the legs. I dont really understand what it has to do with reverse angulation? Becaue the CoM goes behind the legs anyway in any deep retraction turn.
post #9 of 21
If you look at angulation of a way to stay in balance with the forces throughout a turn then you will come to the conclusion that your body will act as a counterweight towards inclination. As I would express it, you need to stand on top of your inside edge of your outside ski.
Also to simplify matters, a turn can be broken down to only two parts not three as it is here suggested. That will express the need to complete each turn and not just skip one important section.
But it is dependent on the situation how each turn looks like and how much you need to use your torso and outside arm as counterweight, thus how long and how far you need to stand on your inside edge of the outside ski in order to complete your turn.

MfG.
post #10 of 21
1) Actually I see the BoS as the entire contact area between the skis and the snow but I understand the idea that some would say it's only under our feet. With that clarifiction the idea of the CoM not passing over the BoS makes sense.


2) Reverse angulation needs a bit of clarification as well. I agree you could create it as you described TDK but I didn't get that from Michael's usage of this "term". Here's what he wrote;
"* The final method of turn entry is Reverse Angulation. This is where the skier enters the new turn still visibly Angulated from the old turn (effectively 'Reverse-Angulated' for the new turn)." 

SF makes a great point about how angulation and inclination are just lateral balancing options. Whatever combination of each we choose to use, that choice needs to make sense for the turn we are trying to produce. To take that idea one step further, angulation in particular needs to be used judiciously. Too much (or to little) negatively affects our balance and our ability to create exactly the turn we want to make.
post #11 of 21
 I tend to agree with the last paragraph from JASP.

Of the three methods suggested, I generally don't like #3 and I feel #1 and #2 should be combined into one.  I don't like the concept of only inclinating and I like even less the idea of using angulation as the method to generate edge angles.

All ski turns involve some kind of inclination and most likely will need some angulation.  There are a variety of opinions about how to develop edge angles through tipping and inclination.  Angulation should be used as a counter-balance to ensure that you are optimally using the inside edge of your outside ski.
post #12 of 21
I tend to agree that progressive angulation (starting mostly with inclination and progressively angulating to increase the edge) will deliver the most ski performance. However...

What I think Micheal is try to describe by "reverse angulation" has more to do with left over counter from the previous turn (and therefore some angulation)... This creates anticipation (Ei; the body is all coiled up and the lower body springs into the new steering angle as the edges are released). During the transition it may APPEAR that the upper body is rotating (and therefore reverse angulated) into the new turn but the lower body is still making the turning effort... the upper body is just facing the direction of momentum as it should. Until the new edges are engaged the direction of momentum just happens to be that of the old turn. Common in tight turns or quick transitions.

I could also be way out in left field and he could be talking about starting a turn with some sort of stylish butt to the outside move... I'm sure there's a place for that move somewhere in this wonderful dynamic sport!
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinerd View Post
What I think Micheal is try to describe by "reverse angulation" has more to do with left over counter from the previous turn (and therefore some angulation)... This creates anticipation (Ei; the body is all coiled up and the lower body springs into the new steering angle as the edges are released). During the transition it may APPEAR that the upper body is rotating (and therefore reverse angulated) into the new turn but the lower body is still making the turning effort... the upper body is just facing the direction of momentum as it should. Until the new edges are engaged the direction of momentum just happens to be that of the old turn. Common in tight turns or quick transitions.
 
Left over counter from the previous turn = anticipation.....check

counter sometimes combined with angulation.....check

anticipation can kind of look like rotating the upper body ahead of the feet.......sorta check

anticipation after the release looks like reverse anticipation?.....NO.

If you think otherwise, please find me some example video or pics that demonstrate what you think you are saying here.

What I think happens is that when you release, in addition to your feet unwinding in a twisting fashion from the anticipation, the CoM will move across, which eliminates the angulation.  In fact if you didn't you would have a LONG ways to go to get angulated back the other direction and probably fall on your face.  But as you say...maybe there is a time and place for the head dive move.

Quote:
 I could also be way out in left field and he could be talking about starting a turn with some sort of stylish butt to the outside move... I'm sure there's a place for that move somewhere in this wonderful dynamic sport!

heh heh....   
post #14 of 21
borntoski,

Yep, I agree with everything you said... except I don't recall saying "anticipation after the release looks like reverse anticipation?" I agree that the angulation should be eliminated in most cases as the COM crosses the BOS. All I was saying is that I can see how the left over counter from the previous turn could be perceived as "reverse angulation" as the skis are being released.
post #15 of 21

Has anyone developed an effective drill or progression to fix an upper level skier who uses method #3 (reverse angulation) and more of a lateral movement down the hill in their higher speed turns?

 

The goal being to replace this method with inclination. 

 

Many Thanks.

post #16 of 21

Jay, I would work on releasing edges by softening the stance leg and allowing the feet to move forward ahead of the hips as the edges change.

post #17 of 21

Perhaps it would be better to see you ski before prescribing a cure. Without that we are limited to theory and quite possibly suggesting a drill that may not address your issue.

Theory: If your finding yourself thrusting your upper body into the new turn suddenly then you're not setting up for the new turn soon enough. Said another way you might be remaining too far inside the current turn to release it without some sort of sudden and strong release move. Tactically that might make sense on occasion but if it's an all the time thing, you need to think about starting that transition sooner and more progressively.

 

As far as drills there are hundreds of them. Starting with sideslips on extremely flat terrain. If you can't perform a clean release there, it's likely this is happening everywhere. It's also likely you compensate by adopting that strong lateral release. Beyond that I would suggest a lesson since when it comes to transitions, guided practice and experience are far superior to internet advice.  

post #18 of 21

Jay, when #3 is done a pivot tends to be the result, because of the anticipation (body facing down the falline) one goes through the transition with.  It causes the skis to twist downhill upon release.  See montage:

 

 

Moelgg,Montage,Web.jpg

photo courtesy of www.YourSkiCoach.com

 

Does the above montage resemble the transition type you're using?  

post #19 of 21

Rick,

Thanks so much!

I think the montage does resemble the movement somewhat, but my clinician and fellow instructors are also seeing a strong push with the outside leg at the finish of the turn... like I'm trying to find it, having gotten a bit inside due to the lateral move.  This isn't resulting in a divergence per se, but more of a wider stance at the finish. 

 

Folks recommended white pass turns, which seemed to help a bunch yesterday.  However, I'm  interested in as many other drills as I can find for several reasons. 

 

1) I'm the type of person who needs multiple ways to practice and thus break out of old habits.

2) I've got some students with similar movement issues, but I'm thinking that white pass turns may be too scary for them to get the benefit

3) I.going for my L3 this year and I'm trying to fill my tool box with as many drills as possilbe.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jay

post #20 of 21

Jay, I am skis on ready to go Saturday at 8:30 for an hour before first lesson if you would like to make some turns and don't have a "rise n shine" private!  Would love to help you achieve your goals!

 

OH!!! ....and welcome to Epicski Jay!  Glad to have you as part of our community!  Tell your instructor friends to check it out too!


Edited by bud heishman - 1/13/11 at 4:00pm
post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
Hey Jay -

Take Bud up on his offer! He can show you some ideas on 'progressive/passive' weight transfer that are much easier to implement and practice than a White Pass turn. The nice thing about starting a turn from a progressive-transfer is that you can change you mind at any given moment and go to a very active transfer if needed.

.ma
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