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your thoughts on PMTS?

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 
I know this may have been covered before. Being a novice skier and new to this forum, I'm interested in your opinion about PMTS and learning skiing in the early stage.

I am 32, started skiing this season. I took a few group lessons and was frustrated by the low expectation from the instructor. They seem to expect you to learn slowly, which could be the result of large group. Outside the classes I learn fast by pushing myself skiing harder slopes and by observing how advanced skier moves. Especially after buying my own equipment, my skiing took a big leap. Now I can ski with the same (if not better) control and smoothness than the "intermediate class." (well, that's my opinion only, it could be my illusion due to the excitement of the sport)

I bought Harald Harb's "Anyone can be an expert skier" lately and was impressed by his teaching philosophy. He believes that if you pick up the right concept and take advantage of the new ski/boot design, leaning can be fast, or even immediate. I am a teacher, so I don't want myself to be a cocky, smart ass learner. But I do believe in effeciency. My question is, is it possible to learn fast at all? Do you think Harald's system is as effective as he claims? Do you or your friend have first hand experience adopting PMTS?

I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks.
post #2 of 34

YES, you can make important strides quickly. I, too, began skiing late in life (a few years ago, at the age of 36) and have progressed relatively rapidly, judging by the barometers i've come across (or watched, or spoken to). i have to say, i think i was GREATLY assisted by a fantastic lesson my first day. i think skiing, at whatever level, can be boiled down to some BASIC basics, after which it's a matter of DOING IT. if you have the time/money/geographical good fortune to get a LOT of days in, combined with the WILL to get better, you can scoot along fairly well along the learning curve. it WILL help, i think, if you're something of an athlete to begin with, or at least with some body awareness and coordination. another great book is warren witherell's THE ATHLETIC SKIER, which i'd recommend you read.
my personal advice is to pay close attention to proper technique, as laying this foundation will assist immeasurably in progressing as you desire. as my high school baseball coach preached, "practice does NOT make perfect; PERFECT practice makes perfect." don't let yourself get lazy/sloppy, as that stuff will start getting into your skiing. and don't be worried about sometimes going right back to the starting point and running drills to get things into your body. last, when you get to a plateau, take another lesson. (good luck finding the right instructor for you, your style, your personality.)
Go get it!

EDIT: by the way, i feel very lucky that my first-day instructor was HAPPY to see some of us take matters into our own hands and try things out. when we messed up, he'd explain why (sans EGO) in ways that made sense physically and mentally (or visually), then let us fly again. (the second-day instructor, as you said, SEEMED to WANT us to struggle, just so he could give a speech about this or that (him or his skiing). <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ryan (edited February 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #3 of 34

I have some personal experience from last week with Harb's book and PMTS. Wife, myself and two friends spent three days at Alta and a half-day at Solitude taking our first turns of the season. I'm not a poor skier by any stretch, but I would like to improve my skills (with an eye towards a more efficient and less "fighting the mountain style") and, to that end, purchased Harb's book and read through it before the trip.

During the first day, I spent quite a bit of time trying to perform the exercises prescribed by Harb. They didn't work out so well for me and I ended up spending time with my "normal" style (skid the turn and feel the burn!) so that I could spend some time skiing with the rest of the group. At the end of the first day, my wife decided that, for me, the book should be entitled "Anyone but you can be an expert skier" - I found some of the positions and exercises difficult and almost sadistically contortionist. I tried some of the exercises that night in boots and got frustrated with the whole system.

The second day, I again spent some time trying to follow the methods suggested by Harb in his book - after wrecking while traversing a green run at Alta (been a while since I've done that) - I said screw it. My skiing overall seemed to be sufering (too many cooks?), so I took a lesson that afternoon (group - 5 students) to try to get myself together. The instructor was not familiar with Harb and when I explained some of his tenets, her responses were exactly as Harb had predicted. The lesson, nominally "Parallel Workshop" theoretically encompassed carving - although I'm not certain the instructor could carve a turn. Putting that aside, she helped me to correct some serious mechanical issues that I had not identified and showed me some other things that improved my skiing.

The third day was ugly weather-wise at Alta - "freezing snot" was the term my friend Chip used. It was the perfect day for my skiing because it forced me to really focus on my mechanics and be aware of what I was doing - so that, in tough conditions, I wouldn't backtrack into a "go with what you know" safe mode. On this day I think I really got my mechanics straightened out.

The fourth day, at Solitude, was good - having corrected a lot of my mechanical issues, I was better able to work in some of Harb's teachings to complement what I had learned earlier. I still found some of the positions he advocates too contortionist, but quite a bit was helpful.

I guess this is a long way of saying that I don't believe Harb's book provides a one-shot solution to improving your skiing. As a new skier, it may work better for you. Harb's approach (in his book) to overall body position mechanics seems largely that your body will figure it out for itself (unless you have an alignment problem). I don't believe this to be accurate.

I will continue to use Harb's book and to seek out lessons to improve my skills in all respects. The biggest hurdle I have at this point is that speed makes me nervous - probably dating back to an "everything must go" garage sale at Cannon Mountain a long time ago when I was first learning. I figure that as I continue to work on and improve my skills, I will get more comfortable with speed and the fall line.

Another note - one of our friends was a first time skier - she was also frustrated a little bit by the progression. At Alta, you didn't get to the chairlit until lesson three. My wife, a former instructor, was surprised that they never taught our friend how to get up from a fall. However, group lessons tend to go to the lowest common denominator of skills and speed of learning in the group and not everyone picks up on it so quickly.

Hope this helps,

raubin<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by raubin (edited February 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #4 of 34
I think that it is all relative. Some learn fast, some never learn. However, it takes years of consistent skiing to become a true expert skier (unless you ski 150 days a year, in which case you could become an expert in a couple of years).

If you feel that you are progressing faster than your peers, then take a more advanced lesson. But don't you believe that anyone has the quick and easy path to expert skiing.

Good luck!
post #5 of 34
I've noticed in lessons that I've taken in the last few years, many of Harb's techniques are being taught by PSIA instructors.
post #6 of 34
Raubin- You had mentioned in your post that Harb's movement patterns didn't work so well for you. As others have said, not every drill / exercise will work for every skier, but one thing is constant for all skiers: any time you start integrating a new movement pattern into your skiing, you *will* feel that you have regressed in your technique. Post lesson skiing isn't the time to be trying out new skills on advanced terrain -- it's time to find the easiest trail around and practice, practice, practice. Yes, it is boring, but it works.

Also, I would like to second Bob Barnes' comment about following expert skiers. If you follow expert skiers, be very carefull about imitating what you see them doing. The movements that you see are the result of what started in their boots; i.e., you see the effect, but not the cause. If you start imitating the effect, you will wind up with truely "dead end" technique.
post #7 of 34
Several things come to mind:

Engineering expression... Good, Cheap or Fast..... pick two.

I've never seen a student who has walked into the dojo and asked "how long will it take me to get one of them black belts?", ever get one.

Slow down and enjoy getting there...

Have Fun...that's the important thing!!!!

Yuki..<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by yuki (edited February 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 34
KevinF, thanks for your comments. I think I found Harb's suggested methods difficult because the rest of my body position was out of whack, for various reasons. Until I corrected the root problems of those symptoms, I could not effectively progress to some of the carving techniques I want to add to my skills. The lesson (2.5 hours) and the following day spent working on correcting those issues, put me in a better position to work with Harb's suggestions on that last half day - on mostly green runs at Solitude. In my mind, there's no shame in skiing green (didn't Kermit say something about that?).

[added later - I should add that I agree, KevinF, that not all drills work for all people - the drills offered by Harb may work better for others - much like any student teacher relationship. On the other hand, I did not feel that Harb's book offers the "complete system" that it seems to imply - it helps to develop certain tools and seems to me to be better as part of a scheme of instruction and learning.]

As far as "experts" - I concur with you and Bob. I, for one, do not seek to emulate the movements of other skiers I see on the slopes. On the other hand, I do aspire to the gentle, smooth and elegant movements that I see in some skiers - but I know that the path there is not through emulation. It is a little bit like watching someone with a smooth golf swing - they may not get as much attention as the guy who winds up and cranks it - but they are a joy to watch.

raubin<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by raubin (edited February 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #9 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all your response.

Bob, I followed your suggestion and found a couple of threads that are related:
"Comments on Lito/Harb teaching method?"
"To Wedge or Not to Wedge"
"Beginner's Magic"
"Landmarks of skier progression"
The discussions covered most of my questions. The forum is awesome because the information is first-hand, the posters are knowledgeable, and the discussion so active. I followed the forum for 4 weeks but was focusing on gear section earlier . Should've done my research before I post.

As impressed as I am by PMTS and it's theory of avoiding unlearning certain skills, I didn't find unlearning wedging difficult, probably because I didn't spend too much time learning it. It was my 4th night of skiing, 1st time with my own gear. The new boots and skis made it so easy that I suddenly started to weight, unweight, and tip my skis to generate turns. (my training was 2hr bunny hill demos and a 1hr gentle slop wedge lesson at that time) Before I realized it, the wedge was gone and my skis are parallel most of the time. It prompt enough confidence that I went to the black slope (should be blue since it's Indiana here) and started to ski with various turn rates and speeds, from which I learned more about balance and control. It made me think that the equipment was design to reward my legs for their productive movement. When I was encouraged to repeat that, I learn.

I took another 1hr lesson on pole planting with intermediate skiers, which I thought was quite good. But nothing teaches me more than skiing itself. Now I can ski (or skid ) down a double black slope (again, should be only black) with more comfortable, less struggling style, and I haven't ski 10 days yet. The advanced skier I observed and learned from were mainly instructors and patrols. I'm aware of the danger of picking up bad habits and it's time for me to take up more lessons. Twisting legs was one of the bad habits I learned from looking at an instructor working with advanced group. That's probably why I skid a lot while not understanding their real foot action.

I haven't actually tried any of the PMTS movements but I "think" it has given me an idea about how to work on my current goals:
1. feel and hold the edge
2. therefore minimize skidding

Skiing is amazing that I learn something new everyday. I just had my oversized boots fitted and I'm sure it's going to make yet another difference.

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by jawski (edited February 09, 2001).]</FONT>
post #10 of 34

First off it's great to hear that you are so enthusiastic about your new sport! It's also good that you have taken the time to read some of the excellent post on the subject, and also invested in a few ski lessons.

After reading your post, a couple of things come to mind. It sounds like you might be rushing things a bit. Don't get me wrong. It's good to have goals, and if it's to ski the steepest thing on the mountain, then so be it. But not at the expense of everything you learned being pushed to the max.

It sounds like you have advanced beyond the wedge by some of the advice on tipping the ankles in my post on Beginner's Magic. Great! In that post, there's a lot of emphases on edging and carving. These are edge pressure drills with little to no rotation of the feet. If the feet are rotated, then one will experience some skidding. In part of your post, you said something about eliminating skidding. Skidding is an essential part of skiing. You will find that without skidding in steep terrain, and trying to use edge pressure only, you will scare yourself. A controlled skid is what you're looking for. A controlled skid is one where the skier doesn't throw the skis sideways skid and brake. But steers the skis through the turn with some tipping of the ankles and pressure to the middle of the skis. By increasing the angle and pressure on the skis through the bottom of the turn, one can still achieve a good carved turn. By steering with a flatter ski through the top half of the turn, the skier can scrub some of the speed that would be generated if left on a hard edge in steeper terrain, and still maintain a good shaped turn.

When you get to the point where you want to spend some time in the bumps, you will need good rotary skills. Not only in your feet, but also upper and lower body separation skills, which is also a rotary skill.

I have seen in the last few years a lot of very good skiers that started skiing within the "New Age of Equipment." This, I believe is my term, but who knows. They can dig holes in the snow by laying down perfect railroad track turns. The width of there skis from foot to foot is fairly wide with a very athletic stance. I had the chance to ski with some of these guys in some bumps and very steep terrain, and they had there problems. The lack of rotary skill hurt them in both areas. Sure, they got down the hill, but they were working way to hard at it. The first thing one of them said to me when we got to the bottom was, " your twice as old as us, and your not breathing that hard. What's up with that! " Rotary skills.

So the bottom line is, Jawski, keep taken lessons and don't think that railroad track turns are the only way to ski. There's a brave new world of rotary out there for you! --------Wigs
post #11 of 34
Wigs, now I'm sorry to have told you how to make those smily faces <G>...

post #12 of 34

>>Wigs, now I'm sorry to have told you how to make those smily faces ...<<

Well my friend, I'm sitting here with a case of the crud on the first real powder day of the year, and if I didn't add a few , they would be -------Wigs
post #13 of 34
OK, Wigs, just putting in a reality check

post #14 of 34
Thread Starter 

Your assessment on the usage of skidding is excellent. Now I wouldn't be too embarrassed by using that as a control on steeper slopes. What I was trying to get rid of is the intentional or uncontrolled skidding by twisting the skis, the approach of GLM, I suppose. That's why I edit my post as "minimize" not "eliminate" skidding.

I'm starting to get an idea (from reading the forum and books) that there's always a place these movements, skidding or wedging, and being able to use them at the right time intuitively is the key, which can only be learned from experience. Even PMTS's phantom move started with wedges. However they are part of the process, not goal.

In terms of rotation, I was able to ski with the separated upper/lower body movement to a degree. The waist twisting was exaggerated when the slope gets steeper while I still feel comfortable. I know need help from a private lesson and evaluation from trained eyes to know if I'm really doing it right. I was hoping to "prepare" myself for the lesson, though. Wife was already complaining about my skiing expense.

You're right about me rushing things a bit. Actually that's what everyone told me. I know I'm eager to advance maybe too quickly, but I also think that might be why I went through the progress a bit faster than anyone in our class (groups of total 40 adults and children from beginner to intermediate).

The first 4 chapters of PMTS make a lot sense to me since I've been doing some of the moves already. I can give you a report on its effectiveness later, from a learner’s point of view.

jawski<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by jawski (edited February 09, 2001).]</FONT>
post #15 of 34
Recently I was disagreeing with Harold about something - finally he replyed by dismissing the peasent (me) <g>. If you want some insight into the "guru" himself. Here is some of his reply:

"I am not threatened by these inconsequential people on the edge of the ski business"

Am I wrong in seeing . . . oh, a bit of "deity speaking down to the masses" level of ego here?
post #16 of 34
Hi jawski,

I would like to suggest that you visit Harald Harb's web site: harbskisystems.com
Review a few of the video lessons, and you will begin to see what is common among many of the lessons. These are the things you need to learn first. Like the shortening of the downhill leg as you transfer weight to the uphill ski, and of course the phantom foot move, once the down hill leg [ ski ] has no weight on it.

I think working with a PMTS instructor is also a good idea. We are assuming that you are using shaped skis. Lito has his good points, but shaped skis has changed quite a few things.

As you progress in your skills, you need to give them time to be fully incorporated in your skiing style by putting miles on the board, and most importantly do this while having fun.

Good Luck and Happy Skiing.
post #17 of 34
Hi Gravity,

I also understand that Henry Ford the first, Thomas Edison, and John Rockerfeller were not the nicest of people either, but no one can deny the contributions they made during their lifetimes.

So, we need to look beyond personalities and consider what Harald Harb's approach to ski instruction can mean to present and new skiers.

If it means learning skiing more quickly, effectively, and safely, where ultimately the skier is not as frustrated with their progress, and quickly becomes addicted to the sport, then this is perhaps a good approach.

I beleive Mr. Harb is of direct European decent and is very precise and complete in his approach to ski instruction. We have to accept him for who he is, so we can learn about what he has to offer. A little arrogance is a good thing, an over exercise of same, can be a turn off.

Lets not let the flaws that we all have in our personalities get in the way of learning something that can work for many skiers.

Lets learn and apply what we can so we all may enhance our own "Happy Skiing."
post #18 of 34
I thought the comparison of Harold with "Henry Ford the first, Thomas Edison, and John Rockerfeller" was a lead in to a joke at first! Seems like a long reach! Each of them invented entire new processes and technologies - quantum leaps past anything in the past. They did not collate and rename things and call it their own.

Now such organization of materials into a new sequence of methadologies is useful. And this does not take away from the value Harbs progression may have for many people. But look back at Bob Barnes last post - even Harold said he did not "invent" any of it. This is pretty different from the men you mention.

And many people have come up with their own progression systems - some better, some worse that Harolds. Most of them not as well marketed however. Denise Mcculage's "Centered Skiing" methadology, Warren Witherell's "The Athletic Skier", any of Ellen Post Fosters works . . . they all are as good and organized as Haralds work. This does not diminish Haralds work - but his does not diminish their value either.

Finally, in an industry based on customer service - how friendly and warm somebody is DOES matter . . . perhaps more than anything else!
post #19 of 34
Finally, in an industry based on customer service - how friendly and warm somebody is DOES matter . . . perhaps more than anything else!
No, what matters most is : will this improve my skiing?
post #20 of 34
Yes - to be able to communicate and have people respond requires "communication skills" and this does not mean the cold hard laying out of facts. It means building empathy with your students.

This is all a perfect example - if I hadn't met Harald, I'd be far more willing to deal with him and his ideas. Trying to elevate yourself up by pushing others down is never a good idea in business or personal contact.

If you groove on the classic European method of instructing where they scream at you and then hit you with their poles . . . perhaps some folks still do, though thats an extreme example of what we are talking about. However most Americans at least don't respond well to that - and therefore personality is a big part of the product.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Gravity (edited February 10, 2001).]</FONT>
post #21 of 34
Thread Starter 
Learner’s report:

After reading the first 5 chapters of Harb’s book, I finally had a chance to practice on snow. I can’t use the drills step by step (kind of hard to carry that book on slope), so I tried to implement the concept that I absorbed. The phantom move helped smooth my turns in 2 hours. Although a bit unnatural but I think it’s normal when you try anything new.

Then I met a friend who used to be an instructor. After a single run he quickly pointed out my problems, bow legging and shoulder being pulled back by poles. He suggested me to bend/spring my keens more. At the end of the day, according to him, I became a totally different skier, and I DO feel the carve much better.

My conclusion is very similar to most people I’ve read in the forum. PROPER INTRUCTION = FAST IMPRPOVEMENT. The book helps in developing my concept, but the lesson I got is probably 10 times more helpful in practice.

Thanks for the suggestion and I think it’s right on the mark about weight transferring. I ordered a Lito video so I’ll have more visual reference learning PMTS. I still like the system because it makes sense to me. My only 2 minor problem with Harb’s claim is: 1. I don’t think I can learn skiing without wedge. He even teaches wedge in his own book, and it’s a major component in the early phantom move. 2. As opposed to focusing on the foot the ENTIRE time, I found it helpful to work on the knees in fixing my problem.

Of course, these are opinions from a student’s perspective.
<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by jawski (edited February 11, 2001).]</FONT>
post #22 of 34
Gravity, I had Harald for a coach at the Nat'l Acad. when he was still PSIA. I believe that no one in that class was exposed to an attitude or a big ego. We were supposed to have a new coach midway through our week there, but the entire group "voted" to keep Harald for the rest of the week. I found him to be very professional and enthused about improving our skiing. He spent quite a bit of time in the evening working with the group and solving alignment problems. As pertains to Warren Witherell they were consultitng with each other at that time and Warren spent some time skiing with us. I have had dealings with Harald since my experience at the Acad. and he has always been helpful and prompt in his responses. However, I do think he gets irritated when people attack him and his program when they don't know him or completely understand his ideas. I've found a lot more ego problems with clinic leaders and some examiners.
post #23 of 34
Lucky, I'm glad to hear that you had good experiences with Harald.
post #24 of 34
Hey guys, I'm pretty new to the forums and a little late on this thread but here are my thoughts. I have studied the PMTS book and video by Harb. I just don't think he is telling the whole story. I wish skiing was just that simple but it's not. Granted, pure carving of long to medium radius turns CAN be pretty simple but everything else just isn't that simple. I was a very good carver before looking into PMTS and thought it was going to be THE next step to mastery because of Harold's enthusiasm, but it's not. It's just another technique that I have put under my belt.
I'm just starting to get the feel for most of the regulars in this forum and I'm sure many of you will agree with me. And maybe those who have had Harold as a race coach or instructor can add some points for Harold's side.

First things first, I think that just focusing on the inside foot for skiing, is an extremely weak concept. He says just concentrate on balancing on the stance ski and tip the free foot. There is a time for knee angulation and a time for hip angulation and I don't think Harold is pointing it all out. He just says avoid the thought all together and tip the free foot. Better suited for people looking to avoid the concept all together. I am a user of knee angulation and hip angulation (as are most experts) but knowing where to use them and how to use them is very important. Granted, when I'm just laying down some sweet high speed arcs, my hips are laid way over and I can achieve this by tipping and pulling that inside foot up, but we have to give more respect to the foot that is in contact with the snow. Harold says we ski with our feet but all he wants us to do is focus on movements of the free foot and stand on the stance foot. What about feeling what is going on with the foot that is on the snow. That is the foot we ski with!! How about tipping the stance foot in different ways, whether it be knee angulation or hip angulation. How about experimenting with tipping both feet together. How about focusing on the ski that is on the snow to get a feel for what the heck is really going on and how to move it?? Why does he insist on ignoring all the movements of the foot that is on the snow?!

Let's look at some other downfalls. First of all, I want to correct those of you in saying that the wedge is an important part of PMTS. Harold is strongly opposed to the wedge in his teachings. He only tries to eliminate it from skiing all together. He doesn't teach a wedge, he just tells you how to get out of it. He says to run from any lesson where steering is taught. Hello!!, every good skier in the world steers their skis. It is mastering this technique that leads to mastering different aspects of skiing. Not one time in his teaching system does he ever address the fact that you HAVE to twist your skis to hockey stop or stop anywhere suddenly, or to make a short swing turn, or the other hundred circumstances which requires steering because he is reserving this exquisite profile of expert skiing being all about perfect carving. Every beginner to expert gets going a little too fast sometimes and how do we slow down? It can be by carving, if you have the room to swoop a big arc across and back up the hill but if you don't, you are out of luck in his system. I agree with Bob Barnes that turning is for changing directions not for slowing down and carving achieves this best. Carving is the most effecient way to change directions but we don't always have the room to carve big swoops across and up the hill and if we don't have the room, we don't want to nuke the hill either. Steering and skidding is just as fundamental to skiing as is tipping. Harold himself steers the heck out of his skis in his video, and his skis do in fact skid or he wouldn't be banging out short swings like he does in his video. There are segments of his instructional video where he comes down through some small moguls swinging these great short turns, great anticipation, great knee angulation, great stance ... and you know what ... it's all just a matter of tipping that inside ski ... give me a break!!! Anyone who believes that, give me a call, I'll find something to sell you too!! Good marketing technique though with this approach to all the struggling skiers by saying "Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier". It should say, "Anyone Can Carve". Carving does not entail expert skiing. It is just one aspect of expert skiing, there are many more. I could go on for days here but the point is that PMTS or "inside foot tipping" is just another technique to aid in carving. It's just not right how Harold can come out and start ripping on people who steer their skis and call them graceless skidders. Nelson Carmichael is definitely not a graceless skidder in my mind, and what mortal level 9 skier wouldn't love to ski like him. Have the greatest skiers in the world said that anyone who carves is this or that??? Maybe, but they are just saying that carving isn't everything, not that it is "WRONG", and they are right! Just like steering isn't everything. Skiing is way too dynamic to be that "simple" in any respect. Tipping is not the end all be all of carving and definitely not of skiing in general. Harold is a smart man because he jumped on the carving band wagon while it was hot and still is.

Jawski, to answer your question,these techniques are better suited for someone looking to have a few more techniques under the belt for carving, or for racers as his video shows. Trust me when I tell you that simply tipping, balancing and absorbing is not the whole story and I'm sure many of you agree!
post #25 of 34
Thank you, Vman.
I always thought that something was wrong with my interpretation of PMTS (as learned from the book) that I couldn't slow down unless I stop every 50 yards. After some reading and some lessons taken I returned to Harold Harb's book looking for anything on the matter of steering - and can't find a word. As much as this book helped me in learnig the basics of carving it stopped me dead in developping as a harmonious skier (or was it my equipment? damn, I never can decide what to blame first ).

One question I have: Vman said
Not one time does he [Harb] ever address ... hundred circumstances which requires steering because he is reserving this exquisite profile of expert skiing being all about perfect carving...
My understanding was that steering was not in an opposition to carving (like skidding is). You can steere in a carved turn - or can you?

Sergey ( 2pizza@usa.net )
post #26 of 34
Welcome aboard Eddyturn

>>>You can steere in a carved turn - or can you?<<<

That was my impression. Yes you can steer in a carved turn.
I have not read Harb's book or seen his video. Just heard lots about it and read many of his articles. The PMTS model makes some sense but I keep thinking that anyone who says there is only one way to do something is missing something. If the model works for you great. As you found, it was not the end all for your skiing. The more you learn, the better you get. Each skill, lesson and experience make up your skiing profile. Then you get to add your own style.

Happy skiing.
post #27 of 34
Agreed. You can steer when carving. And, like dchan, I have read Harb's entire web site and talked to lots of PMTS instrucotrs, but have never bought anything of his or been trained in PMTS. From what I have heard and been told (in no uncertain terms), PMTS says that you just put the ski on edge and stand there and take the radius you get. No input from pressure or steering. I have been told that you do not steer. I think that's a load of bull (steer? moo!). If you don't adjust pressure and steer the skis, you can't effect the radius of the turn. Yet PMTS keeps pushing the notion that you don't steer in a carved turn.

My whole beef with PMTS is that it is just a progression, not a whole teaching system, and that it will only work on a limited variety of terrain. Plus, I was using a lot of what Harb claims as "his" years before he put it in writing and laid claim to it.

Harold is free to take his ball and go home
post #28 of 34
I agree with the steering comment. After reading some of Pierre's posts, I actively tried steering throughout the turn. I immediately noticed better, more controlled carving. Also, the shorter the turn, the more the steering paid off. Concentrating on what the inside foot is doing, beyond just tipping it on the little toe, is an important tool for me.
post #29 of 34

Great observation. You definitely need to steer that inside foot too.
post #30 of 34
Like Vman said so eloquently, you have to be able to do many different things on the ski to perform at an expert level. Carving, steering, skidding, braking, hopping all come together in the final package. From this forum, I have learned much about these techniques, thanks to guys like Bob B., JohnH, Dchan, Ott, Pierre eh, MilesB, Gonzo, Ryan, etc, etc, etc.

I find this forum very helpful in putting together the whole puzzle. Not having ever had lessons, it took me a while to equate what is said on Epic to actual physical motion and ski practice. I think, for the most part, my technique was and is OK, but it has been an eye opener to be party to some of these threads.

I have had very postitive results using some of the suggestions on this board, like holding the insight foot back and keeping the hands forward. Simple advice really, but not something you necessarily figure out on your own. The inside foot is fun to play with - you can really make those shaped skis TURN if you want to.

10 Days Till Utah
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