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In skispeak, what do these terms mean to you?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
How do you interpret these terms as related to skiing & ski turns.

Add others if you like.

Steering? - Turning the skis with a well balanced blend of skills & movements to create the desired shape.

Guiding? -  Using subtle physical movements to influence direction of the ski turn.

Pivoting? - Rotational/twisting movement of the feet & legs/femurs under pelvis, independant & isolated from the upper body to point the skis right & left.  Very little direction change may occur.

Leg rotary? - similar to pivoting, but would be used more or less to influence the desired outcome in a steered turn.

Upper body rotation? - Twisting the upper body/head, shoulders, torso around the vertical axis in the intended direction to transmit turning power to the skis.

Hip Rotation? - Similar to UBR, but generated from the hips.  Sometimes difficult to distinquish from UBR or FBR.

Full body rotation? - Similar to UBR.  With FBR, some muscular tension is engaged through & between the upper & lower body to transmit turning power to the skis more directly.

Skidding? - Turning skis on low edge angles with skis slipping sideways.  Directional control is rotary dominant.

Sliding? - The act of the skis moving forward down the slope.

Gliding? - Minimum friction created to reach the desired outcome in a ski turn.

Countering? - Where one part of the body moves to balance & offset the movement of another part.

Angulating? - Creating angles between body parts to regulate the amount of edge engagement the skis have to the snow (edge angle).


Those are my definitions.  Some may agree with some of it, part of it, or none of it.  If anyone else wants to play, just copy & paste from the list below.

Thanks,
JF


Steering?
Guiding?
Pivoting?
Leg rotary?
Upper body rotation?
Hip Rotation?
Full body rotation?
Skidding?
Sliding?
Gliding?
Countering?
Angulating?
Edited by 4ster - 11/2/09 at 9:29am
post #2 of 24
Barnes wrote a whole book about this, The complete encyclopedia of skiing....I'm sure CSIA has an equivelent. SD E, care to share?
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Barnes wrote a whole book about this, The complete encyclopedia of skiing....I'm sure CSIA has an equivelent. SD E, care to share?

There are lots of books.  You've probably read quite a few of them, but I doubt that you carry them around with you (maybe you do).  I've read some books over the years as well.  In day to day dealings & conversation you deal with these terms.  You need to explain them in as simple a way as possible depending on your audiences level of understanding.  If BB wants to chime in & give his definitions great!  If you want to play in this thread, you need to give YOUR interpretation.  If it is influenced from things you've read, as I'm sure mine are, or things you've experienced that is the idea.

What do they mean to YOU!

Thanks,
JF
post #4 of 24

Steering?
 Forcefully changing the steering angle.

Guiding? -  Being more subtle about changing the steering angle.

Pivoting? - Rotational/twisting movement of the feet & legs/femurs under pelvis, independant & isolated from the upper body to point the skis right & left. An actual skill in the CSIA world.

Leg rotary? - Term not used..

Upper body rotation? - Twisting the upper body/head, shoulders, torso around the vertical axis in the intended direction to transmit turning power to the skis. A MISTAKE.

Hip Rotation? - Term not used.

Full body rotation? - Upper body rotation without separation from the lower body.

Skidding? - Turning without fully engaged edges.

Sliding? - Similar to skidding, just skid, more turning.

Gliding? - Skiing a flat/minimally edged ski down a shallow slope -- usually in a tuck.

Countering? - Synonym for counter-rotated.

Angulating? - Creating angles between leg and torso to regulate the amount of edge engagement the skis have to the snow (edge angle).  Also used to ensure outside ski dominance.  
post #5 of 24
Thanks 4ster, I really appreciate you doing this!

Steering? - Applying a torque to the ski in the plane of the ski while making a turn (pivoting the ski).  Usually refers to the addition of a pivoting input to the ski while the ski is edged.  (I try to avoid this term.  This is my favored interpretation of other people's usage).

Pivoting? - Applying a torque to the ski in the plane of the ski while making a turn.  Pivoting movements my not necessarily result in much pivot of the ski.  I tend to use this term independent of how much rotational movement there is of the ski in the plane of the ski, i.e. pivoting movements apply a torque to the ski.

Tipping? - Apply a torque to the ski around the longitudinal axis of the ski.  I tend to use this term independent of how much rotational movement of the ski occurs (around the longitudinal axis of the ski)

Hip Rotation? - When used without further clarification I interpret this to mean hip joint rotation (rotation of the femur in the hip socket).  If someone specifies "hip bone rotation" I will probably assume pelvic rotation.

An additional guideline I try to follow:

When talking about ski technique, relate body movements to forces transmitted to the skis. If ski movements are used as the outcome then there is the further complexity of ski/snow interaction that can cause confusion.

 

post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
Si, 
You use the word "torque" in most of your descriptions, I like that.  I guess we can add tipping to the list. 

Tipping - could refer to tipping the upper body, or the whole body (inclination) or as I've learned since I've been on Epic, tipping the feet to create or increase edge angle.

Hope we get to ski together again sometime.


BigE,  I think the term countering could refer to a counter rotated position, counter rotation, counter balance, or counter acting.  I guess we could have different definitions for all of those.
I need to learn more about this "steering angle" thing.

& yes it was Norm Kreutz.
Thanks,
JF
post #7 of 24
Steering angle is simple -- the angle between the direction in which the skis are pointing and the instantaneous direction the CM is moving.

The instantaneous direction the CM is moving is the direction your body would take if you double ejected clean out of your bindings.  If you remove all deflecting forces, you'd fly out of the turn in the instantaneous direction the CM is moving.

Steering angles are built into modern carving skis.  Carving skis turn so easily because their edges point in a different direction even on a straight run -- this is the "steering angle of the ski".
post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks E, that is more clear now.  Especially the ejection part .

JF
post #9 of 24

Steering? Controlling the direction of the skis by over powering the ski/snow interaction.
 

Guiding? Controlling the direction of the skis without overpowering the ski/snow interaction.
 

Pivoting? Turning primarily flat skis without significant direction change.


Leg rotary? Turning the legs in the hip socket independent of the pelvis.
 

Upper body rotation? Turning the upper body in the direction of the turn independent of the lower body.
 

Hip Rotation? Turning the pelvis/waist, generally around one leg axis or the other.
 

Full body rotation? Turning the entire body in the direction of the turn. Usually an extension of upper body rotation.
 

Sliding? Forward movement over the snow in the direction the skis are pointing.

 

Slipping? Sideways movement over the snow perpendicular to the direction the skis are pointing.

 

Skidding? A combination of the previous two, with varying amounts of slipping involved.

Gliding? Similar to sliding but usually done on a flat ski.
 

Countering? Orienting the pelvis/waist and upper body to the outside of the turn by varying degrees. Used for balance and  pressure, and to both store and cancel energy to and from the skis.


Angulating? Opposing angle between body parts. Used to manage and direct lateral balance and direct pressure as edge angles increase from tipping the feet and legs. Can also be used to create edge angles (as in knee angulation for one example).

 

Tippng? Lateral movements of the feet and legs that moves the ski up on one edge.

post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Hip Rotation? Turning the pelvis/waist, generally around one leg axis or the other.

Thanks RicB, I like the simplicity of your descriptions.  So far things are more similar than I had anticipated.  I have added Sipping & Tipping to the list.  I am also going to add Hip Projection.

JF


Steering?
Guiding?
Pivoting?
Leg rotary?
Upper body rotation?
Hip Rotation?
Hip Projection?
Full body rotation?
Skidding?
Slipping?
Sliding?
Gliding?
Countering?
Angulating?
Tippng?
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

Steering angle is simple -- the angle between the direction in which the skis are pointing and the instantaneous direction the CM is moving.

Steering angles are built into modern carving skis.  Carving skis turn so easily because their edges point in a different direction even on a straight run -- this is the "steering angle of the ski".
 

Kind of contradicting isnt it. But not if you accept that skis are not pointing straight ahead. They are pointing in a arced curved along the r of the ski.
post #12 of 24
Steering?
Not used.

Guiding?
Not used.

Pivoting?
Skis turned/pivotted sideways.

Leg rotary?
Not used.

Upper body rotation?
Rotating the upper body into the turn.

Hip Rotation?
Letting the hips wonder out in the turn, think of negative angulation.

Hip Projection?
Moving the hips into the turn, or letting them move there.

Full body rotation?
That would include feet as well so I have to stick with not using the term except for park and trix (which isnt skiing ).

Skidding?
Anytime a ski does not carve and there is a skid angle. Its not a bad thing but it can be if you dont intend to.

Slipping?
Walking with ski boots on a slippery floor.

Sliding?
When you need to come down a slope sideways. Beginners do this all the time even though they cant.

Gliding?
Forward motion on skis.

Countering?
Looking towards the outside of the turn.

Angulating?
Bending at the hip sideways, is usually coupled with counter and they blend together.

Tippng?
Any movement that tips your body into the turn.

 
post #13 of 24
tdk, you say some things are "not used", but you need to define them to be able to say why they are not used!

I mean, you need to say: "I think steering is (insert definiton) and it is never used in skiing"
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post

tdk, you say some things are "not used", but you need to define them to be able to say why they are not used!

I mean, you need to say: "I think steering is (insert definiton) and it is never used in skiing"

Sorry, just thaught I use E's method. Explaining what terms I use and to what and which terms I dont use. I will try again.
post #15 of 24

 I don't use "osculating circle" either.  Want a definition?

post #16 of 24
Steering?
Not used. Since I dont really know how it works but here at epic I try to blend. I use it to please others. You know US rules. My current understanding is that there are three different steering camps. Two arguing over how it should be done and a third just calling it skidding. Im in the third camp. I would like to group steering into two categories, active and passive. Im in the passive category although I do drive my knees into the turn in some cases and that could be thaught of as steering. Active steering. 

Guiding?
Not used. It sounds a bit like steering. Like I actively steer them someplace. Except I guid them. Kind of gentler version.

Pivoting?
Skis turned/pivotted sideways.

Leg rotary?
Not used. I do use femure rotation. I think that is a better word, more descriptive.

Upper body rotation?
Rotating the upper body into the turn.

Hip Rotation?
Letting the hips wonder out in the turn, think of negative angulation.

Hip Projection?
Moving the hips into the turn, or letting them move there.

Full body rotation?
That would include feet and skis as well so I have to stick with not using the term except for park and trix (which isnt skiing ).

Skidding?
Anytime a ski does not carve and there is a skid angle. Its not a bad thing but it can be if you dont intend to.

Slipping?
Walking with ski boots on a slippery floor. In skiing maybe side slipping. Edges dull and skiing on ice. Unintentional sideways slipping/sliding. 

Sliding?
When you need to come down a slope sideways. Beginners do this all the time even though they cant. Intentional slipping.

Gliding?
Forward motion on skis.

Countering?
Looking towards the outside of the turn. Facing outwards with upper body.

Angulating?
Bending at the hip sideways, is usually coupled with counter and they blend together.

Tippng?
Any movement that tips your body into the turn. Like tilting.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 I don't use "osculating circle" either.  Want a definition?


Sorry, I read it as "not used in skiing", i.e. by his definition of what it was, it wasn't something that could or should ever be used in skiing. (hence the way I requested the reply)
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post




Sorry, I read it as "not used in skiing", i.e. by his definition of what it was, it wasn't something that could or should ever be used in skiing. (hence the way I requested the reply)
 

Ratts, you had me working overtime....
post #19 of 24
I usually try to make sure the people I'm talking to and I are using the same definitions, but if I had no context and just had to come up with definitions to these words based on all of my past experience here's what I would come up with.

Steering?  Changing the direction my skis are pointing in when viewed in plan view, changed by direct application of a torque acting about an axis perpendicular to the plane of the snow surface, the torque acting between the boot and the ski.

Guiding?  Showing people around the mountain, or perhaps accomplishing the same goal as steering without using torque through the boot as a major contributor to the result, relying instead on interaction between the ski and the snow to change direction my skis are pointing through tipping balance and pressure control.

Pivoting?  forcibly rotating the skis about an axis perpendicular to the plane of the skis unless another plan is specified.

Leg rotary? rotating a leg regardless of what else is or is not rotating

Upper body rotation? rotating upper body

Hip Rotation? rotating hips

Hip Projection?  Moving hips (usually forward and into the turn)

Full body rotation? rotating entire body

Skidding? sideways sliding, used to differentiate an edge-locked carved turn from one where the edge is sliding sideways a bit

Slipping? sliding - I've heard a lot of people use this term only for sliding frontwards and not sideways.

Sliding?  Movement where there is relative motion between two things, like ski moves but snow underneath does not - ski is sliding. - maybe this is the term I've heard only applied to forward motion, I'm not sure, that's why I don't imply too much by sliding, slipping.

Gliding?  Skiing with minimum friction

Countering?  Applying some motion in an opposite sense to some other motion.  Usually in the sense of rotating the upper body one way as the skis are rotating the other way.

Angulating?  Having the body in a different position with skis tipped to a given angle than it would be in if the skis were tipped up on their edge to a certain angle and the body was just kept straight at an angle it would have if a person took a picture of them standing still and just tipped the picture.

Tippng?  What you do after a ski lesson.  Tipping the skis= what you do to turn.
post #20 of 24
wtfh, no worries.
post #21 of 24
Steering - A using a combination of pivoting, edging and pressure control skills to create a direction change.
Guiding - Leading a group of people into the backcountry and being responsible for their safety... among many other definitions! 
Pivoting - Turning the legs and /or feet.
Leg rotary - Don't use this term but would say it describes turning the leg in the hip socket aka the most functional method of pivoting.
Upper body rotation? Twisting the upper body into a turn.
Hip Rotation? Same as above but with the hip
Full body rotation? Don't use this term but would suggest it describes remaining in square to the skis during a turn.
Skidding - A turn with a large steering angle but low edge angle or minimal grip on the snow.
Sliding - moving over the snow surface.
Gliding maintaining momentum while moving forward over the snow surface
Countering - Counter rotation is the separation of the upper and lower body (ei: upper body facing the outside of the turn) as a result of good pivoting (good). Actively countering would be deliberately moving the upper body in the opposite direction of the lower body (not usually good).
Angulating - Creating angles in the body segments, usually for the purpose of creating larger edge angles without increasing inclination (balancing against the resultant forces of a turn by leaning). Therefore maintaining balance on the edge(s).
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post



 the direction your body would take if you double ejected clean out of your bindings.  


 

I think we can add the above as a definition of "Very Bad Day".
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

How do you interpret these terms as related to skiing & ski turns.

Add others if you like.

Steering? - Turning the skis with a well balanced blend of skills & movements to create the desired shape.

Guiding? -  Using subtle physical movements to influence direction of the ski turn.

Pivoting? - Rotational/twisting movement of the feet & legs/femurs under pelvis, independant & isolated from the upper body to point the skis right & left.  Very little direction change may occur.

Leg rotary? - similar to pivoting, but would be used more or less to influence the desired outcome in a steered turn.

Upper body rotation? - Twisting the upper body/head, shoulders, torso around the vertical axis in the intended direction to transmit turning power to the skis.

Hip Rotation? - Similar to UBR, but generated from the hips.  Sometimes difficult to distinquish from UBR or FBR.

Full body rotation? - Similar to UBR.  With FBR, some muscular tension is engaged through & between the upper & lower body to transmit turning power to the skis more directly.

Skidding? - Turning skis on low edge angles with skis slipping sideways.  Directional control is rotary dominant.

Sliding? - The act of the skis moving forward down the slope.

Gliding? - Minimum friction created to reach the desired outcome in a ski turn.

Countering? - Where one part of the body moves to balance & offset the movement of another part.

Angulating? - Creating angles between body parts to regulate the amount of edge engagement the skis have to the snow (edge angle).


Those are my definitions.  Some may agree with some of it, part of it, or none of it.  If anyone else wants to play, just copy & paste from the list below.

Thanks,
JF


Steering?
Guiding?
Pivoting?
Leg rotary?
Upper body rotation?
Hip Rotation?
Full body rotation?
Skidding?
Sliding?
Gliding?
Countering?
Angulating?
Jim, 

Your definitions are great!  couldn't agree more, very clear and precise to my understanding.
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bud,
 
I think we come from the same ski culture, so our understanding of these terms is similar.  My idea for starting this thread was to gain a better understanding of how the contributors on these forums interpreted some of these common ski terms.  We have folks on here from different regions of the US, Canada, Finland, Austria & a few other places from what I can gather.

For instance, when I first started reading the technique threads, the term "tipping" would come up.  Well for me, I had always used that term in the context of leaning, or tilting the upper body.  I quickly learned that the modern usage of "tipping" is referring to the feet & ankles tilting the skis up on their sides to begin the kinetic chain of edging and angulation.  Makes perfect sense in that aspect, but I was scratching my head the first few times I saw it in some of the posts.  The same thing happens with abbreviations.  I think it should be an unwritten rule that the first time an abbreviation is used in a thread that it is defined by the poster.  COM = Center of Mass, ILE = Inside Leg Extension, OLR = Outside Leg Relaxation, etcetera.

All this in the quest for better communication!

Anyone else who wants to add to the list, feel free.

Thanks,
JF

Steering?
Guiding?
Pivoting?
Leg rotary?
Upper body rotation?
Hip Rotation?
Hip Projection?
Full body rotation?
Skidding?
Slipping?
Sliding?
Gliding?
Countering?
Angulating?
Tipping?
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