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Firm ski forebody - avoiding the back seat

post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 
On the General Ski Forum, the Gear Forum and the Consumer Review Forum, I've left no doubt that I have taken a liking to the latest iteration of the Rossignol Bandit XX. That ski is constructed with a tapered metal sheet - that is, the metal layer is wider at the tip and tapers to narrower at the tail. I have noticed what I believe are two distinct consequences of that feature: The ski turns REALLY quickly and can turn on a dime; and while turning, it has knocked me into the back seat and on occasion even knocked me down. This has not been a problem with other skis I've trialed, and it is no problem at all on my own K2 Mod 7/8's [today's Axis]. I have learned to avoid the problem by fairly constant shin pressure on my boot tongues. I have been advised by at least one PSIA examiner, who I expect to know about such things, that riding the skis this way is not sound technique. I am enthralled with the XX, so please don't say "Look at another ski!" The questions: What technique will deal with this situation? What ajustments to eqipment will deal with ths situation? Delta increase or decrease? Heel lift? Forward binding placement?
post #2 of 39
brother Oboe,

your problem is not one of equipment but one of technique. you must teach yourself to stop skiing old pencil-ski style (drive the shovel with firm shin/boot tongue pressure).

that technique, along with minor up-unweighting and anticipatory rotation, are my 3 hobgoblins.

to avoid it, I focus on the sense of pressure on the soles of my feet. you can easily keep your balance point without driving your shin into the boot tongue. just modulate stance with variable pressures along the foot. I stand neutral when running flat, and use different pressures depending on conditions, steepness, and speed.

hopefully that muddied the waters a bit.

post #3 of 39

In my humble opinion, the hitch in your skis' getalong arises from the lag of your center. Imagine an unseen hand is pressing on the small of your back at precisely the rate your skis are moving forward: you can't press properly unless you have something to press with.

post #4 of 39
More upright stance can also help bring your weight forward. If you draw a line from the heel of your outside boot (the one that you put the most pressure on), perpendicular to the ski, you butt shall never be found behind it


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 27, 2002 10:08 AM: Message edited 2 times, by VK ]</font>
post #5 of 39
oboe..(great posts Gonzo, VK..etc)
Relax, but go BIG! (bigtime down the fall-
line...that is) with the upper body.
One tactic that was so good for my pseudo powder technique...last week...at the onset of our *Winter REVIVAL!!*
was to climb onto a fast midfat..(ex..Volkl G3) in a **SHORT** length..with its miniscle sweet spot...and ski the thick stuff.
I'll tell you, after just an hour my skiing in the thick stuff was at my all-time best.
Without a doubt the added area(width) was
just so nice, but the small sweet spot MADE
me ski centered thru everything. A truly epic couple of days....really got to understand how to fully utilize the width in the thick stuff....with complete control.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 27, 2002 09:36 AM: Message edited 1 time, by HaveSkisWillClimb ]</font>
post #6 of 39

I am taking a guess here at what might be the problem, so review again what Gonzostrike has posted here as well.

Does this happen mostly on steeper slopes ? Is there any verticle movement in your skiing style ?

If the answer to both questions is "YES," perhaps you should think about any verticle movements being made perpendicular to the slope, NOT along the same line of the force of gravity. If your verticle movements on steep slopes are parallel to the force of gravity, then you have automatically put your self in the back seat and are constantly having to compensate for such movements.

In other words, any upward movements should be made at about a 90 degree based on the pitch of the slope.

Of course for very extreme slope angles, the technique changes dramatically and this rule doesn't hold.
post #7 of 39
Thread Starter 
wink: GREAT questions! Great because they will eliminate some variables. Up and down movement: NO! I've sworn off that! My hips and head stay more or less at the same level, and my feet moved lateraly as my legs extend and contract. On the steeps: NO! It NEVER happens on the steeps - it ONLY happens when the pitch flattens out, and ONLY when turning. Also, it ONLY happens on the Rossi Bandit XX, with which I am enthralled so don't tell me to try another ski. The XX is built with a stiffer forebody and more flexible tail, which catalyzes the problem. Mind you, I avoid the problem COMPLETELY when I set out to avoid it - I just don't know if it may be better to adjust the equipment: Heel lift in boot, more forward lean of boot, more "delta" under binding elevating the heel more, moving the binding forward a tad. So, now the problem and the questions are better defined, wink, and I thank you for helping get us there!
post #8 of 39
Thread Starter 
P.S. Although the stiffer forebody catalyzes the problem, it makes me feel GREAT confidence on the steeps.
post #9 of 39

Some additional ideas:

1. If this happens only on the hard pack perhaps a retune and rebevel of your edges,may solve the problem.

2. If it happens with only one of your skis, then check out the integrity of your ski construction.

3.Rent another pair of Bandit XX and see if you continue to have the same problem, if so, then there could be something in your technique that manifests itself with this particular ski.

4. If not, after checking out the tune, binding placement, etc, then it could be the skis themselves, and now the factory rep needs to become involved.

Finally, I would never tell you to choose another ski over a ski that you have a particular fondness for.

I hope this helps diagnose the problem.
post #10 of 39
This may seem like a strange suggestion (just a bit of lateral thinking on my part as usual!), but keep with me here for a minute...
If we are talking about a problem mainly on piste, rent or borrow a pair of ski boards (Salomon Snowblades, etc) in a 99cm length (and not the fat ones). Stick to the groomers, and try them out on varying inclines.
While the best way to ski on them is to get down low, I'd suggest not getting too low. After a day or two on them, then get back on the Bandits, and give us an update.


P.S. Are there any other ski board users who would agree with this little exercise?
post #11 of 39
Thread Starter 
wink: It's Number 3 - It matters not from which shop I rent the skis, the XX always has that property, and yes, I DO think it's an aspect of my skiing brought out by that ski. I intend to do something about it, even if it means this old dog learning a new trick or two [!!!]

fox hat: I think that you and wink are on the right track - and I WOULD rent the skiboards/snowblades except for one thing - they do not have release bindings, and the stats on broken legs with them is discouraging. However, I believe that I can accomplish the same thing as you suggest with the Elan guys that are 123 cm long.

In short, I think I've found one helluva ski, and now it behooves me to become one helluva skier.

Your input is very much appreciated.
post #12 of 39
I don't want to start an argument, but check your stats on the ski boards.
One of the problems with them is that any idiot can strap them on, and go down nearly any run. (They have a shorter learning time than snowboards) So a lot of inexperienced people get on them, and while they can go fast easily, for someone without good balance and control, it's very easy to lose it which is when some of the injuries occur. Many of the others occur in the terrain park. With skis, if you land badly, the length of the ski will allow you the chance of getting out OK, but if you don't spot the landing on the ski boards, you're toast.
In the early days, there were problems with dislocated hips, but that was resolved by introducing shorter ones for shorter people.
As the accomplished skier that you are, these shouldn't be a problem for you, but if you are anxious about it, then rent a pair of Salomon Propellers or Head Headliners(both have ski bindings, but let the shop set the release pressures, because they are different for ski boards than for skis)

Hope this helps,

post #13 of 39
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that info,fox hat.
post #14 of 39
Oboe, just get a different ski. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #15 of 39
Thread Starter 
No, weems, NOOOOOO!!!! I MUST have that XX!!! Actually, I think it just requires more of my attention, but when I give it attention, it is SWEEEET !!! Women can be like this, too, in case you haven't noticed.
post #16 of 39
So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong!
post #17 of 39
Thread Starter 
BIG discovery - "It's not the skis - it's the skier". Now, calm down, calm down, I know this is a big shock and a real surprise. Thanks to all of you, and to Bob Barnes who private messaged his thoughts, I have learned that BOB BARNES IS ALWAYS RIGHT! So, the XX remains one helluva ski, and oboe will do his damnedest to become one helluva skier [gonna require more professional help to do it, though].
post #18 of 39
The elan short skis come in 113,123,133cm. I have the 113cm . They are so much better than snowblades that I really don't know why anyone bothers with snow blades since they're built like crap and cost a fair amount of money. The Atomic free zone (?) ski also comes in 123cm and maybe shorter. It's a little wider and probably better for all around skiing. There's nothing like those short skis on hardpack or ice. Sharpened up they're like ice skates. Hart used to make a snowblade type ski that was much better than the Saloman but alas they've disappeared.
Be aware that most of those elans come with a very concave base. A lot I've seen used in ski school are railed making them difficult for beginner skiers to use. I had my pair flattened pretty well which entailed taking the bindings off since they were 113cm and wouldn't fit in the machine. Fortuneately I had a shop guy who took it as a challenge and had the time to screw around. Even though you spend most of your time on edge anyway, they skied a lot better once flattened and stone ground with a structure. I put a 1deg. base and 3 deg. side edge bevel on them. I believe the 123cm will fit in the machine without taking the bindings off.
Probably more than you wanted to know...
post #19 of 39
Thread Starter 
Tog: Thanks for that info! It definitely is not more than I wanted to know, and it's quite useful. I have discovered that I have some issues to resolve that have a lot more to do with my technique than with equipment or conditions. The Elans may be a tool that will help me in the process of resolving those issues. A lot of professional instruction will be needed as well.
post #20 of 39
I would agree on the Salomons - I had them for 1 season, then switched to Fischer Spyders (which are no longer available). They are assymetric 99s, and are sweet. (damn, I'm starting to talk like a boarder!)

post #21 of 39

I also really like the Bandit XX and have skied it a few times. They did turn a lot quicker than expected and the edges did seem to 'bite' very fast for what is described as a soft GS ski. The edge could be biting quicker and harder than your other skis and coming round too fast, throwing you into the back-seat.

Have you tried 'swivel sideslips' to get use to low edge angles? "In a fast sideslip on smooth, firm snow of moderate pitch, make 180-degree turns without deviating from an imaginary corridor running straight down the slope".

Bob B explained it (much better) to SCSA some time back (perhaps someone can find the thread and post a link here). I find it really usefull when trying to get used to a new ski. Also try turning on flat runs with the smallest edge angles possible.

post #22 of 39
Thread Starter 
DangerousBrian: RIGHT! I think you hit the nail right on the head, and I'll try that this morning. Another thing I've done is to take new heel lifts out of my boots - they've chnaged the fit of them, and I formerly did not have this nagging back seat problem. I'll report back.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 31, 2002 05:21 AM: Message edited 1 time, by oboe ]</font>
post #23 of 39
Overlifted heels will definitely put you in the back seat. That may have been the key variable.
post #24 of 39

I thought I was done with this but after reading Dangeous Brians post.....
Try detuning a portion of the shovel area of the ski...Of course if this is happening on soft snow, powder, slop,crud, spring i.e. any condition other than hard pack or groomed, then ignore the suggestion.

If in the bumps, it is happening in the iced over troughs, then try a detune...otherwise all the best in solving your problem.

Since many of us have invested a little more than our 2 cents, let us know how you resolved the situation.

Das ist alles!
post #25 of 39
Thread Starter 
weems, wink:Taking out the heel lifts certainly did no harm - although today's mashed potatoes [and I don't care if that's the correct spelling - or not] sure did take an edge. I have concluded that the Bandit XX [one terrific ski - or a pair,if fox hat is watching] merely shone the light on one of my many technique flaws - over edging and over turning. Some of this has to do with a certain mentality of grossly mediocre skiers, like me, that turning is GOOD, and turning takes EDGE, so where two or three beers tonight might be ok, consuming a case of suds in an hour must be even better. Anyway, I think that everyone's input here has been platinum, and I thank you. I can't say das ist alles because I don't know it to be true - but I do know that mehr ist besser will no longer be my mantra on the slopes! Danke zehr schoen, und gutten abend

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 31, 2002 04:37 PM: Message edited 1 time, by oboe ]</font>
post #26 of 39
Thread Starter 
fox hat, P.S.: Lacking the time or oportunity to get on snow blades, ski boards or whatever, I opted for one run - the next to last - on my T-Power shorty slaloms. Yes, they are easy to turn and to throw around, but they definitely demand a centered stance. Strangely, or not, after spending so much time on mid-fats, I found these less desireable over all. The mid-fat skis I've been on lately, and especially my own K2 Mod 7/8 [Axis-no-X] and the Bandit XX, can turn as sharply as I ever need or want and have enough edge-to-edge to do what I want. Nevertheless, the T-Powers did key me into the center. I also have concluded that the over-edging, over-turning problem is a technique flaw with any ski that requires elimination - it is my bane, and its demise will surely open the door to Valhalla
post #27 of 39
Check your support in front of your foot's arch...I was lacking support underneath the ball of my big toe... Simply adding support
there straightened everything...and I mean
Everything out. Straightened out the delta problem. That "XX"...what a ski eh.
post #28 of 39
Thread Starter 
haveskis: Thanks for the input, but I do not understand - how can support under the ball of the foot have anything to do with getting knocked back?
post #29 of 39

I think he is talking about ramp angle. By changing your ramp angle a little (toe cheese as GMOLFOOT likes to call it) your body naturally changes the way it balances. You tend to stand taller and thus your CM moves up and forward. It doesn't always work and can back fire if you don't have the range of motion in your ankles to accomodate the change. It's probably worth a try and if it doesn't work, pull it out. I've seen it work for some people and just make it worse for others.

Good luck. send GMOLFOOT a PM and he can elaborate more.
post #30 of 39
Thread Starter 
Thanks, dchan, now I know what he was talking about. I have convinced myself after a day of skiing on my own skis that the problem is one of technique. However, I'll give that negative ramp a try
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