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more short turn STUFF

post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 39
Warning: Highly uneducated reply...
Isn't this demonstrating more counter rotation than is necessary for modern technique?
post #3 of 39
Good Eye, Lisamarie.
post #4 of 39
Thank you! My main problem with short radius turns is a tendency to counter rotate too much. That's why I caught it.
post #5 of 39
yes LM good eye.
however (devils advocate here) If you were doing short swing turns and not trying to carve you might use this much counter and not necessarly be "wrong". If you were skiing deep crud in a narrow slot for instance you might want to be that countered to get the advantage of the torque it introduces. For carving "new skis" technique yes too much counter. Learn both and know when to use the correct amount. then It's just one more skill you can use in your vast blend of skills. If you read the last few lines the article mentions don't over due it as it is ugly and very tiring. but it's about being versatile.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited August 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #6 of 39
The counter- rotation called for in these types of turns is more of a gentle move with the upper body to keep it facing the fall line. The longer or straighter the skis, the more forceful this needs to be.
If you are going to ski bumps or deep snow, you need to learn this.
post #7 of 39
If you have planted the pole while attempting the "counter rotation" illustrated in the last drawing, you won't be able to counter rotate the way the arrow points. Your pole will block the upper body. You'll be "forced" to perform an anticipation-release.
post #8 of 39
Remember that this is a European site. The Americans ( )are currently leading in developing shaped-ski technique; the Europeans kept their old technique except for "advanced, expert carved turns."

Therefore the information on the site is accurate and probably educational for anyone (we haven't altogether given up any one technique, we tend to add technical quivers to our baskets - sorry for mixing metaphors) but it won't mirror what you get told in American ski schools, which also differ from each other. So if the advice isn't for expert skiers, it's going to sound/look even stranger to you.

European and American techniques differed even before shaped skis - just ask Bob B. Actually, he's already explained that in another thread.
post #9 of 39
Actually it is a bit reminiscent of Bormio.

But d-chan's comments about crud, interesting. I noticed I used alot of that kind of counter rotation because I didn't know what the heck else to do.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #10 of 39
I'm not so sure that what the American developments toward ski technique could be called "leading". We get our butts handed to us by the Europeans in the WC every year... and "we" base our techniques off of racing. Hmmmmmmmm.....
post #11 of 39
Haven't you noticed that Rahlves, etc. have come closer to beating the Europeans recently? Although they do have training, background and support advantages.

Also, race technique has changed a lot in the last few years - compare last year's races and racers to even the world cuppers five years ago.

And last but not least, I said leaders in technique, not World Cup medals. Shaped ski technology and technique got developed in the US, but it doesn't mean the European medalists, whose job it is to be on top of advances in technique, didn't pick up on it before the Americans left their starting gates.

The Americans, as I said, have been doing a lot of advancing on the World Cup level recently; if Maier's out of the competition, we may win some men's as well as some women's medals at the Olympics. Remember Moseley and Picabo Street - both medal winners at the last Olympics? It's at the regular world cup level that we haven't been winning.
post #12 of 39
S+S. Unfortunately, mon frer, the world cup is where all the talent is. Nothing against Picabo and Rhalves, but the Europeans have it figured out, and the almighty USA is stuck playing catch-up... and "close" is only worth a good excuse in the bar after the race. I don't think you can classify Mosely as even human, but I wouldn't call what he does exactly technically sound. Today's mogul tech is all about muscle and hang time. It was a lot funner to watch when guys like Bill Kerig and Scott Kauf were ruling the universe.

Back to the point. Every so-called innovator in this day and age starts his or her "new" book with "Y'know? I was watching my buddies Jeremy Nobis (has-been)and Bode Blow-up (never-will-be) ski the course today and I got to thinking about how I could make a few green-backs off every poor sap that buys my load of yams for $25.50 a pop." Be it Hobart, Harb, PSIA blah blah... They never seem to watch who is winning. If I were to take up basketball, I would rather watch Mike Jordan than Bill Cartwright.

It always seems that the American need for a "get good quick" fix turns out to be the absolute worst thing we can do. Watch Chad Fleischer on a split screen vs. Lasse Kjuss. Miller vs. Amodt. Rhalves vs. Maier. They don't match up. Why? Because the Americans all have been taught to push and muscle and try to squeeze speed out of a ski that would do all the work for them, if only they would let it. Meanwhile the Euros just go... relying on sound technique, alignment, and technology to kick our collective arses. Where does it come from? Coaching. It seems that bad technique filters UP in this country and none of the good stuff works its way down. I see even today coaches, ski instructors and their trainer's holding on to antiquated paradigms and dangerously archaic beliefs. And they teach would-be skiers.

I don't see how American skiing is at the forefront of innovative, and sound technique when our top skier's are repeatedly getting worked on the circuit. I know that All of this is only one man's opinion and I guess I'm just a proud American who is tired of watching our boys walk away LOSERS. It just sucks and now I need a beer.

Thanks for reading my Rant.

Spag's quote of the day:
"I don't mean to go off on a rant here, but...."
- Dennis Miller _
post #13 of 39
Top pic sure looks like a down stem to me! There's a platform that'll loosen some dental work, nothing like an exagerdemo! Kneale, I suppose if there is a one,two with the blocking pole plant, you're right.
Spag....we gotta talk about the medication! Maybe sooner, but I have got to say around the '87 Interski you yanks started to lead rather than follow. As far as a national technique is concerned ATS, centerline and the Humanistic teaching models left the Euros in the dust. Closest is CSIA, with the Kiwis not far behind (maybe ahead now).
Olympic and W championship titles though frequently are darkhorsed by the North Americans. One run wonders and training to "peak" at the big show is an American tradition. It is a pro sport, "Super Bowl" mentality. The season doesn't count, the big game does! The Euro tend to worship the season and a few classics like the Strief and Lauberhorn.
8 million Austro's aren't distracted by football, basketball and prom dates either...skiing is the national industry (almost).
Euro skiing and ski racing have very little connection. The average Euro skier is style based, recreational...hell they don't even like off-piste! A few turns and a few gluhweins.
I wonder what woulda happened though if Mike Jordan had grown up in Ketchum Idaho instead of NC?
As far as National Technique (and historically in Europe, read National Dogma and pride), there would be a great historical thread...Arlberg, reverse shoulder, projection circulaire, shwingen. Weird at one time, I think the French loved Hannes and the Austros followed Emile....I think...time for Ott to straighten that out.

Say g'day to the trouble and strife!
post #14 of 39
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Americans all have been taught to push and muscle and try to squeeze speed out of a ski that would do all the work for them, if only they would let it. Meanwhile the Euros just go... relying on sound technique, alignment, and technology <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, I agree with that statement, although there have been major exceptions to the Euros winning everything, like the Maier brothers. My point was that if you look at vid clips of the last 5 years, the Americans are looking much steadier and are nowhere near the back of the pack any longer - they've made major strides, while the Euros are adjusting their technique every season to the shaped skis also. It's simply taken much more seriously by their race teams who know that national identities are tied up with them. The European racers are willing to take chances with innovation, whereas it seems to me that the Americans tend to assume they know everything (not far off, of course) - since I identify with the US race team myself, I don't want to sound negative.

Moseley is inhumanly good (I agree again) but the point was he took a chance in Nagano with an unusual technique - and won. Didn't you say the point was the medals, not anything else? Also, tho'least known, the freestyle team is world-reknowned for beating the competition - including the Europeans - look at the rest of the team.

Looks like I got long-winded also <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by skis&snow (edited August 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #15 of 39
One more thing - re my first comment, I meant that the general European population (that website is not teaching world cup racers how to ski) is not learning carved turns until they reach advanced levels of ski school,so the site's instruction is aimed at less-than-expert skiers.

Here in the US we teach the carved turn (or we're supposed to) from day one, tho' obviously in PSIA it may not be a perfect carved turn (an argument I won't get into.
post #16 of 39
Glad you brought up the last point ski and snow.
My only European ski school expernce was at Bormio. Most have heard the details, so I'll sum it up to say that I was taught the most dated technique imaginable. Can you say heel slides?

But ironically, the ski school owned a bar where they would show videos of Italian Ski racers. No locked boots for Tomba.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #17 of 39
The biggest obvious "hole" I saw in american technical skills became apparent in slalom two seasons ago. Still incredible leveraging happening on short slaloms, both Koz and Bodie...lot of rodeo riding.
Spag, does nail it on riding the technology and not overworking it...maybe thats why the austrians train exclusively GS until October.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited August 29, 2001).]</FONT>
post #18 of 39
What is a downstem? Please explain.
post #19 of 39
A down stem is just like it sounds, a stem entry. It used to be a demo. Works like a preturn while parallel. A platform is created, usually including a pole plant, the tail is displaced down the hill, edge check, rotary pushoff, into the new turn. A convergent, sequential movement it still is a great tool for setting up at the top of a narrow chute. Although a "negative, defensive" movement...I like it in the repetoire.
post #20 of 39
Robin, what is a downstem? please explain. (ha ha. try that in English and not Canadian) Just kidding. I did go off on a bit of a rant, but the medication is working fine now. I used Prozac as a solid stepping stone and jumped straight to mainlining Demerol through the pupils of my eyes.
post #21 of 39
Once again, Moriarty, you are one thread a head of me!
post #22 of 39
So it is done from a stop?
post #23 of 39
No, not from a stop. A downstem is also sometimes refered to as a abstem, specifically when the downhill (cause there is lots of rotation, probably over-initiated the outside, turning ski will be pretty much across, so "downhill")ski is brushed out to an edge set (just like the windup in old Arlberg turns) with pole plant.
It is just a converged check to create rebound for the "next" turn.
If you were dropping into a chute, you would likely make a diagonal traverse in an anticipated position, nail the first bump/turn with a downstem to get the motor running "into the future".
post #24 of 39
OH! That! I got it. Yes, very useful. I just didn't know that there was a name for it.
I was worried that if you saw me doing that in the steep narrow chutes at Mtn. High, you would think that I am a bad skier!
post #25 of 39
If I saw you doing that in the steep, narrow chutes of Mt. High, I would think you were in Mammoth!
I re-read my posts, and admit both my expanations were ambiguous.
post #26 of 39
what's a short turn? please explain.
post #27 of 39
A short turn is what you get when you have a new toy and a big brother.
post #28 of 39
Clarification please. I thought an abstem occurred at the end of a turn and is the result of improper technique such as too much forward boot pressure or a shoulder & thus a hand dropped too low where a downstem is a predetermine turn entry to create a platform such as an entry into a steep shute or steep & deep crud? Abstem not being acceptable and downstem being acceptable.

"May the force be in your mind and not your skis."
post #29 of 39
Bob, I've always thought of conscious stemming movements as being preparatory to commencement of a turn.

Same whether it's an upstem or a downstem/abstem.

The abstem that gets made unconsciously or habitually instead of being a part of forming a platform for launching a change of direction DOES come at the end of a turn and, to me, is more of a defensive move.
post #30 of 39
Bob- I understand what you are saying. An abstem is simply an abstem at any part of the turn intentional or not. Can we then say there is really no downstem? A down stemp would simply be another term having the same definition.

If we want to discuss an abstem as Kneale discribes it and as I understood it, do we simply call it a bad technique that causes an unwanted abstem? This discussion was part of our verbals during my Level III certification. You only hoped you and the examiner were on the same page!

"May the force be in your mind and not in your skis."
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