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Understanding TURNING POWERS - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Perhaps we just need a ski language czar to dictate commonality. 
It would be nice to get BB's Encyclopedia on-line... then we could use its definitions as the commonality. Not everyone will be happy, but at least the language would become more standard... 
post #32 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 Perhaps we just need a ski language czar to dictate commonality. 

Rick:

It really feels like we're talking in two different languages. And probably saying the exact same thing.
post #33 of 46
Thread Starter 
 Bob Barnes defines my "turning powers" as ROTARY MECHANISMS and differentiates these from turning forces.   However we define these internal and external efforts and forces, I believe the important point is to understand the differences and communicate clearly our intents to avoid any misunderstandings.  

I looked up dictionary definitions of power and force and believe my application or these terms here, are very plausible. 
Edited by bud heishman - 11/5/09 at 10:25pm
post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkiMogul View Post

Quote:


Rick:

It really feels like we're talking in two different languages. And probably saying the exact same thing.

 


Most likely the case, Mogul. 
post #35 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 However we define these internal and external efforts and forces, I believe the important point is to understand the differences and communicate clearly our intents to avoid any misunderstandings.  

 


Absolutely, Bud!  Avoid the jargon when possible, and explain our usage of it clearly when we feel it serves a purpose to include it.   
post #36 of 46
Thread Starter 
 Doesn't part  of  our  teaching model  include  "checking for understanding"?   Following this ideal  will  insure  our students follow our thinking no matter how differently we each describe  a particular  facet of skiing.
post #37 of 46
Thread Starter 
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Counter Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  Generally done at the beginning of the turn, the upper body twists away from the direction of the new turn, and the legs twist towards the direction of the new turn.
With this definition "CounterRotation" cannot be done if your are carving (edge locked). You cannot also do it if your skis are on edge in the middle of a turn. Must be something you do at transition or in a DH tuck.

Counter-  A position where the pelvis faces towards the outside of the turn.  It imposes no turning forces on the skis. 
Skiing into counter to me sounds like a continuous movement where you have different degree of counter at different times and you end up max countered at the end of the turn. To me this Counter=Position sounds wrong. Correct me if Im wrong but doesent Counter do just the opposite, reduses turning forces on the skis?

Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  The upper body is twisted in the direction of the new turn, pulling the skis along with it.
Sounds like I define it too. Dont you think the "bad form" in my "bad rotation" video is just this: rotation pulling the skis along.

Anticipation - A way of manually turning the skis.  At the end of the turn the body faces down the falline, while the skis point across it. This creates a torque in the pelvis that causes the ski to pivot downhill to join the upperbody the moment the skis edges are disengaged.   
I did not think "Anticipation" refered to "way of manually turning the skis". I thaught it ment that your upper body is twisted/turned and facing to the inside of the comming turn after transition insted of being square or countered.

All these techniques have occasional situational usage in all mountain skiing.  That said, Rotation and Counter Rotation are typically the only option domain of the lower skilled skier.  A labor intensive way to horse the skis into a pivoted turn.  For turns that need some aggressive redirection at the start, anticipation is a more refined and efficient way to do it. 
Not Anticipation but some muscle and body "actions that are made out of an anticipated position"???

But,,,, most turns don't require a pivot/push intiation.  Most recreational skiers would be well served to make eliminating their default pivot initiation the first order of business.  Replace it with the leg steering Bud described, and make those initations subtle, progressive and smoooooooooth.  A quality narrow track steered turn should be almost indistinguishable from carving arc to arc.
But what if I dont want to be progressive and smooooooth? If I want to be aggressive and use force and make the snow beg for murcy?

 EDIT: blue color better than read.....
post #39 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Counter Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  Generally done at the beginning of the turn, the upper body twists away from the direction of the new turn, and the legs twist towards the direction of the new turn.
With this definition "CounterRotation" cannot be done if your are carving (edge locked). You cannot also do it if your skis are on edge in the middle of a turn. Must be something you do at transition or in a DH tuck.

It's generally a transtional move, but it can be done mid turn by simply unweighting the skis.  It's a good emergency reaction technique for quickly changing direction or dumping speed.

Counter-  A position where the pelvis faces towards the outside of the turn.  It imposes no turning forces on the skis. 
Skiing into counter to me sounds like a continuous movement where you have different degree of counter at different times and you end up max countered at the end of the turn. To me this Counter=Position sounds wrong. Correct me if Im wrong but doesent Counter do just the opposite, reduses turning forces on the skis?

My definition is of a moment in time, so the nature of the pelvic orientation is clear.  It's not meant to go into how the amount of counter varies throughout a turn.  That would require a chapter, not a definition.  Yes, the amount of counter can and usually should vary as the turn progresses. 

The turning forces I was referring to were those that act to manually twist the skis into a new compass direction, as produced when doing rotation or counter rotation. 


Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  The upper body is twisted in the direction of the new turn, pulling the skis along with it.
Sounds like I define it too. Dont you think the "bad form" in my "bad rotation" video is just this: rotation pulling the skis along.

From memory, yes.

Anticipation - A way of manually turning the skis.  At the end of the turn the body faces down the falline, while the skis point across it. This creates a torque in the pelvis that causes the ski to pivot downhill to join the upperbody the moment the skis edges are disengaged.   
I did not think "Anticipation" refered to "way of manually turning the skis". I thaught it ment that your upper body is twisted/turned and facing to the inside of the comming turn after transition insted of being square or countered.

Yes, your positional definition is correct, but I thought you didn't like position definitions.    I included that position you described in my definition, but went on to offer a common way that position is used. 


All these techniques have occasional situational usage in all mountain skiing.  That said, Rotation and Counter Rotation are typically the only option domain of the lower skilled skier.  A labor intensive way to horse the skis into a pivoted turn.  For turns that need some aggressive redirection at the start, anticipation is a more refined and efficient way to do it. 
Not Anticipation but some muscle and body "actions that are made out of an anticipated position"???

Yes, but also understand that the beauty of Anticipation is that once the position is established, once release of our edge engagement from the prior turn happens the pivot can happen quite passively.  The body of it's one initiative WANTS to return to square, so the pivot just happens. 

It's why if we're trying to teach beginners to shed a default pivot they have ingrained in their skiing we don't want to immediately teach them anticipation.    It might eliminate their ability to rotate, but it also introduces a new force that encourages a pivot via another means. 


But,,,, most turns don't require a pivot/push intiation.  Most recreational skiers would be well served to make eliminating their default pivot initiation the first order of business.  Replace it with the leg steering Bud described, and make those initations subtle, progressive and smoooooooooth.  A quality narrow track steered turn should be almost indistinguishable from carving arc to arc.
But what if I dont want to be progressive and smooooooth? If I want to be aggressive and use force and make the snow beg for murcy?

Then you certainly have that option.  The problem is, for many recreational skiers, it's the only option they have.  We need to provide them with others. 


 EDIT: blue color better than read.....
Oh I don't know, I kind of like the red. 
post #40 of 46
Thread Starter 
 Perhaps we should clarify anticipation and  anticipation  release and  all the options available?  I  don't believe the only option for anticipation  release is a pivoted  turn entry!
post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Perhaps we should clarify anticipation and  anticipation  release and  all the options available?  I  don't believe the only option for anticipation  release is a pivoted  turn entry!

Right, Bud, a pivot is not the only possible outcome.  But it requires a rather high level of skill to avoid it.  You have to maintain the tension, and let it unwind gently, at the same time you're also attempting to initiate a clean entry and shape a consistent top of the turn.  It's tough, even for good skiers.  Intermediate skiers skers really don't have a much of a hope at pulling it off. 

This is the thing we have to remember when working with students, and trying to help them rid themselves of their default push/pivot entry.  It's a pervasive issue in recreational skiers, and if we put them in anticipated positions we're just stacking the deck against their chances of ridding themselves of the dastardly critter.   
post #42 of 46
Thread Starter 
 We could "maintain tension and unwind slowly" OR not use a blocking pole plant allowing the upper body to move toward realignment with the feet as apposed to the feet moving toward the torso OR we could tip the skis (twist n tip) on an early edge and extend aggressively against the new platform rather than allowing flatter skis to pivot.  There are probably more options but these come to mind at the moment.
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 We could "maintain tension and unwind slowly" OR not use a blocking pole plant allowing the upper body to move toward realignment with the feet as apposed to the feet moving toward the torso OR we could tip the skis (twist n tip) on an early edge and extend aggressively against the new platform rather than allowing flatter skis to pivot.  There are probably more options but these come to mind at the moment.

Bud, those aren't really other options, they're just execution elements of how you unwind slowly.  Whether you gently rotate you body toward your feet, or simply wait for your skis to carve or steer gently back to your body, the important point is that the rotational reunion has happened progressively, without a pivoting of the feet.  Not using a blocking pole plant is one of the things you do to make a pivot free gradual unwinding easier to do. So is keeping an engaged ski through the transition.  

The whole process is a high skilled endeavor, not well suited to the lower skilled skier struggling to shed a chronic pivot.  Thus my point: don't unnecessarily challenge the student by putting them in a position which works against the thing they're trying to achieve.  

Translation, steering via femurs rotating in the hip sockets is a dead end formula for helping a skier shed their chronic pivot.  Femurs rotating in hip sockets, accompanied with the suggestion of keeping upper body facing down the falline, generally produces more counter than is needed for the turn being executed, and results in an anticipated position during the transition that auto powers a pivot in all but the most skilled of skiers who intentionally attempt to avoid it.  
Edited by Rick - 11/5/09 at 12:41am
post #44 of 46
Thread Starter 
 Didn't realize we were focusing on beginners here?

Quote:
Translation, steering via femurs rotating in the hip sockets is a dead end formula for helping a skier shed their chronic pivot.  Femurs rotating in hip sockets, accompanied with the suggestion of keeping upper body facing down the falline, generally produces more counter than is needed for the turn being executed, and results in an anticipated position during the transition that auto powers a pivot in all but the most skilled of skiers who intentionally attempt to avoid it.  
Sorry, I am not really buying this statement and how did we get on the subject of correcting a chronic pivot?  I am simply trying to create understanding of various turning powers not get into a tip vs. pivot discourse.  Also never said or inferred that an anticipated or countered position necessarily required the torso to face directly down the fall line, which most times is not accurate.
post #45 of 46
I agree, Bud.  We're focusing on the forces that exist in skiing, and their implications on how we perform.  That's why this discussion about the effects of anticipation occured. 

Didn't mean to imply you made any promotion of the idea of turning femurs in hip sockets to the point of facing down the falline.  Just mentioning it because it is a common theme that gets promoted by many instructors, and it has important consequences that need to be understood.  It creates an internal torsional force that is very pertinent to this conversation, as it can be very influential on the nature of the initiation of the turn. 
post #46 of 46
Pierre,

I have tried to lay out a sequence of turn phases with corresponding speed of the skier. Please indicate at which point my understanding is not correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
..................
speed control comes with using gravity to your advantage and shaping the top of the turn where speed is slow.

Very appealing concept!!!

Anticipation makes the skis turn quickly down the fall line (pivoting?) decreasing the length of time it takes to make a complete turn. Decreasing time over a given distance is the definition of increasing speed. Want to whip out a bunch of turns on a steep slope, use anticipation.  Want to decrease the speed and increase comfort use patience and slow turning into the fall line at the top of the turn in order to shape the turn and increae the time it takes to complete the turn.
 

If I understood you correctly, you are stating that skier should come to through completion phase of the turn and transition without shading any speed. Did I get you right so far?

This way the skier's speed will be highest between end of shaping and beginning of completion phases of the turn. Am I still correct?
 
At the moment of transition between turns, the skier's speed will be higher then at the end of the initiation phase.  Therefore, the end of initiation phase of the turn corresponds to the slowest speed the skier will travel through his trajectory. Still correct here?
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