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WC ski technique. Impressions from Soelden GS opener. - Page 4

post #91 of 110
Well going deep at gates is a new way to express the approach at the gates. The modern carving skis allow a bit more than just a high line as it was said in the past, because the so called "angle of attack" becomes too flat and therefore too slow. By going deep you do go the longer route, meaning you are not as tight at the gate when in the apex, but tight at the exit of the turn.
One could still express it the old way and say to turn up high, but it would be to vague and give not much reference for the line. (E.g. you could say turn up 10 meters at the gate or just 5 meters but going "deep" is more precise and the faster route)

Does that help?
post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post

Try deep CrudBuster, and inclination is not a good thing at all.
 

Re inclination, it depends:  inclination, as opposed to the clear error of going further and falling in (excessively tipping to the inside of the turn, losing pressure on the outside ski) is simply balancing against the forces of the turn.  Angulation is bending (beyond inclination) to increase the edge angle and to distribute more pressure to the outside ski than you get through inclination alone.

If you're going fast enough and you have enough sidecut on your ski, inclination alone may be plenty sufficient to achieve the perfect edge angle for the fastest turn without additional angulation. 

In other (most) situations, and almost always on the first few gates of a course, you have to add angulation (hip, perhaps some knee, perhaps tilting the head toward the outside of the turn to accomplish some of the same things, by moving the CoM toward the outside of the turn) in order to increase the edge angle and increase the pressure distribution to the outside ski.   

That said, between two still pictures of racers in the same race at gate X, the faster racer may often be the one showing less angulation, and more pure inclination.  That's not because inclination is faster, it's because the racer going the fastest at that gate doesn't have to use as much angulation to create the same edge angle.

SfDean.
post #93 of 110
In our point of view balancing with the forces is not considered an inclination. We also describe it as a forward downward lean. We simply stay away from the word inclination unless we talk about an error.
Just a different way to look at I guess.

Thanks.
post #94 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post

In our point of view balancing with the forces is not considered an inclination. We also describe it as a forward downward lean. We simply stay away from the word inclination unless we talk about an error.
Just a different way to look at I guess.

Thanks.
 
OK.  Thanks.  It's largely a vocabulary/definition of terms thing.  You say inclination, I say leaning in.  I say inclination, you say forward downward lean.  I like the vocabulary of forward downward lean, though, because it does emphasize projecting forward, particularly (presumably) early in the turn.

SfDean.
post #95 of 110
I don't view inclination as an error.
post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

I don't view inclination as an error.

Oh when did you post this? Anyhow it also is not an error if you are still on your feet coming out of the turn. But if you land on your schnauze it simply was an error. But my problem is, how would you differ that inclination from the other inclination? I call the one where you are still standing a "downward/forward lean" but in the end it is probably the same as your inclination, uhm which one was it again?
post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post




Oh when did you post this? Anyhow it also is not an error if you are still on your feet coming out of the turn. But if you land on your schnauze it simply was an error. But my problem is, how would you differ that inclination from the other inclination? I call the one where you are still standing a "downward/forward lean" but in the end it is probably the same as your inclination, uhm which one was it again?
11/27

Inclination differs from leaning in to the turn.  With inclination, the weight remains on the outside ski.  When you lean in, the weight transfers to the inside ski.

It's that simple.
post #98 of 110
When inclination gets to the point that weight goes to the inside ski, we often call that banking.

Banking is generally considered inclination gone bad.
post #99 of 110
Ok, it seems that learning a language is not enough any longer. Without starting a huge headache for you guys why did you ever talk about angulation versus inclination?
We angulate and stand with the forces in balance that leaves no grey areas.
post #100 of 110
Ok, it seems that learning a language is not enough any longer. Without starting a huge headache for you guys why did you ever talk about angulation versus inclination?
We angulate and stand with the forces in balance that leaves no grey areas.
post #101 of 110
Ok, it seems that learning a language is not enough any longer. Without starting a huge headache for you guys why did you ever talk about angulation versus inclination?
We angulate and stand with the forces in balance that leaves no grey areas.
post #102 of 110
Ok, it seems that learning a language is not enough any longer. Without starting a huge headache for you guys why did you ever talk about angulation versus inclination?
We angulate and stand with the forces in balance that leaves no grey areas.
post #103 of 110
Ok, it seems that learning a language is not enough any longer. Without starting a huge headache for you guys why did you ever talk about angulation versus inclination?
We angulate and stand with the forces in balance that leaves no grey areas.
post #104 of 110
Well, you called it an error, so I thought I'd tell you my definition.

Is it still an error if the weight stays on the outside ski?
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

Well, you called it an error, so I thought I'd tell you my definition.

Is it still an error if the weight stays on the outside ski?
No not at all. I begin to realize that it is not enough just to learn another language. Interesting how we use the same words in our own language but still describe something else.
Thanks for the clarification, it only took one year for that.
post #106 of 110

Removed double posting.


Edited by Davey - 12/5/09 at 12:15pm
post #107 of 110
Hey 4Ster.  I like your posts
WC Skiers free skiing:-
World Cup GS Stars Free Skiing (Sorry it's from the 2007 disk.  This year's is available on DVD).
(If you wanted freeride skiing, I couldn't find anything!)
  • I would comment on the pics of the guys at the gate: Look at how the forepart of the skis are sometimes off the snow.
  • I don't think Karbon's inside ski is that lazy.  Looks like she tipped-in a tad and took extra grip.  I think she's transferring on to it.  She looks comfortable with it whether it's deliberate or not.
  • I've posted about a parabolic track elsewhere, but in coaching at club and ski-teacher level (apologies if I'm off topic here), I think it's important to get on to a new edge early, especially if you want to stay high, but the secret is not to think of a single semicircular arc.  It needs to be a gradually-edged shaped-arc turn, not a parked-edge turn.  Max edge is a brief phase.  In a circular arc, it would be the same edge all the way and the course needs to be very open for that shape.
  • Another question is for the youngsters: Where in the turn do the skis have the most speed over the snow. 1) In the fall-line 2) Between the arcs.  Many teachers say in the fall-line, but this isn't so esp. in a turny course.  The fall-line is the tightest part of the arc where you are turning the fastest.
  •                            The answer is: Look at some Lemaster stop-motion sequences.  You can plainly see the linear accelerations in the glide between the gates  (Assuming there's space!), and the slowest part is through the fall-line.
  • I loved the odd-one-out photo of Poutanian.  Great inclination and set-up.  I think I would have that image in mind when helping to coach club racers and youngsters.  With a great set-up you can then rapidly wind-on some edge, get the transition done with some agile angulation and then quickly wind-off edge as you pass the pole and get direction for the next turn-in rise-line.  Any big pressure edging after the apex is going to act as a brake - you're pushing yourself back up the hill.  But if you have early direction, you can get some steering angle in a floating pivot that doesn't cost much speed-loss but is more agile when you need to move quick.  This allows the skier to stay faster longer.
  • You are right - a lot of juniors love to throw weight inside too early, but patience pays off.  We as coaches have to be careful to be clear that early edge means early feeling for edge, not early max edge.  Bending the ski above the fall-line is much harder than after, as gravity assists the bending force in a later bend.
On Inclination: I like this in the setup.  Extending laterally with straight body off the outside ski into the centre of the arc at that instant. Great position of strength.  But an instant later, we have to be agile: So angulate then, do the apex and get past the pole and into the fastest part of the cycle.

Anyway: I admire your work.
Great stuff
Davey
post #108 of 110
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the link Davey.  This clip seem to be the only one that gets linked when talking about WC'ers freeskiing, but it is still great to watch.  Yesterday I watched a friends more recent Canadian training DVD, I think it was from last year.  It had some good imagary on it, & some interesting drills with the arms & poles in the Womens SL section.  Anyone else seen this?
JF
post #109 of 110
Hi 4Ster
Ah yes
{...more recent Canadian training DVD...}
Yes, I have that DVD!  I like it that they share.  Certainly the British Association of Snowsport Instructors and all the freelance coaches that train aspirants use the material.  I play it in a loop just to engrain the rhytms and movements.

Video is great, but so is the stop-motion still photo.

I'd like your advice on Turn Shape.  (I've made a lot of posting aready, so I won't bore the readership).
Specifically GS turn shapes with which to introduce adult ski teachers.
As for WC Ski Technique: For me it's too specialised to try to emulate.  The ski teacher Eurotest GS entrants look at the performances of the women WC GS racers as their physique and strength is closer to ours.

My question would be: As a GS Opener: Can you remember your introduction to GS and learning the line? Do you recall any coaching information on turn shape, relationship of the apex of the turn and the gate-line.
Or did the coach just say: Now you are ready for gates: There is a full course, get yourself down it. (Which was my intro).

Here is Luc Alphond advertising a pair of dodgy skis, but the skiing is interesting.
On http://www.rossignol.com/index.php?_lang=GB&alias=rossignol-innovations&oid=INNOVAT:4bhvg82gs9d7

Davey
post #110 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey View Post
My question would be: As a GS Opener: Can you remember your introduction to GS and learning the line? Do you recall any coaching information on turn shape, relationship of the apex of the turn and the gate-line.
Or did the coach just say: Now you are ready for gates: There is a full course, get yourself down it. (Which was my intro).

Davey
 

Yes, I vaguely remember a few things.  The first was with a coach named JP Pascal.  It was a course setting clinic & it was mostly about learning to set the course with feel, rythm, & flow.  Use the natural terrain & set no tricks.  The fastest will still win.  The second was with then USST coach Harald Schoenhaur, who was the Mahres' coach at the time.  It was very good with a lot of talk about line, vector forces & the timing of turns.  This was my intro to the "rise line" concept & it has stuck with me for 25 years.

Quote:
I'd like your advice on Turn Shape.  (I've made a lot of posting aready, so I won't bore the readership).
Specifically GS turn shapes with which to introduce adult ski teachers.
As for WC Ski Technique: For me it's too specialised to try to emulate.  The ski teacher Eurotest GS entrants look at the performances of the women WC GS racers as their physique and strength is closer to ours. 

I always try to teach new racers that carving turns is their main quest.  Do not sacrifice quality turns to straighten the line or add aerodynamics & that skidding is the enemy.  I try & teach them that a high line & good turn shape is the path to consistancy.  Their main focus should be to have the turn finished as their skis pass the gate.  The turn should be completed as close under the gate as possible.

JF
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