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A-frame, boot alignment issue, or both? (pics to help out) - Page 2

post #31 of 51
I too have adapted to being off from ideal. Before I could do that however, I had to feel what it was supposed to feel like. It took proper alignment to get that feeling for me.

Smooth
You must be really old. Canting has been around since the late 60s. (don't get upset, I'm just kidding)

I too have found that it's not a "cureall" it just makes it easier to learn the proper technique.
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by FastMan:
I tend to agree with the rude American bashing gentleman from Australia.
Rude gentleman - tee hee - see ant, it's working! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by SLATZ:
A thought occurred to me.
I've heard this argument so many times.
I wonder what the instructors who think alignment isn't important would say if they tried skiing with their equipment two or three degrees off once?
Or just skiing in rental equipment.
post #34 of 51
A lot of good skiers are born with good alignment.(at least I've found that and I saw a study to that effect several years ago) Rental equipment wouldn't have the effect for them.

I'm very impressed with Mr Smooth though. It must have been very difficult for him to do everthing he has when he's that knock-kneed. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Congratulations.

I'm also very jealous of the number of days he spends on snow. :
post #35 of 51
I too was a cronic A framer. After many lessons and one good race coach, it was finally corrected. The reason was too much knee angulation. Seems I was trying to achieve high edge angles through knee angulation alone...not leg extension. Once I got my upper body with the proper counter (allowing for good hip angulation), I was able to get high edge angles through leg extension only. Not only did my skiing kick into high gear, but walla - not more A frame.
Not saying this is dipsticks problem, his upper body and hip angulation look pretty good to me, but others might find it useful.
post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by SirTurnalot:
Whoa junkie, NoCleverName was just agreeing with you, using the credit card example as a way to throw of the balance of someone who might think that it's not a problem. He didn't say that that's all there is to it. You owe NoClever an apology. And you're even from my old home state too!! Now let's hear it.

ps. I don't think it's an equipment problem.
I guess I misread or mistinterpreted what NoCleverName wrote. I will re-read it. If I am wrong I will gladly apologize. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Smooth Johnson:
Cool - ant has been egging me on to start trouble in here for years - looks like its worked. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

FWIW I don't ignore aligment, I just hate hearing excuses made for poor skiing. This season I have had quite a few students that I have sent in to have orthotics made/modified, and in the 2 most extreme circumstances, their boots shaved. These people were so off that no matter what they did their alignment completely prevented them from being able to turn. However with the bulk of people that I teach, it really is the least of their worries.

If somebody's alignment is debilitating, like it was in those 2 students I mentioned, I do something about it straight away. If it is the lesser of a few evils I address it in due course.

Of course it is hard to observe a skier from stills instead of video, but I am convinced there are some mechanical deficiencies in dipstik's skiing that can be overcome with correct technique. I can categorically say that if his aligment were fixed, with no other work being done to his skiing, his photos would look very similar indeed.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SLATZ:
A thought occurred to me.
I've heard this argument so many times.
I wonder what the instructors who think alignment isn't important would say if they tried skiing with their equipment two or three degrees off once?
I never said it wasn't important, just that its too often used as an excuse or a crutch. It is possible to overcome poor alignment with good technique (As said in the Harb quote i posted earlier) - I learned to ski before we really became aware of alignment issues, and made examiner with 3 & 3.5 deg of knock-kneedneess. It's not ideal, but I worked around it, and right now the deficiencies in my personal skiing won't be improved by fixing it. </font>[/quote]FYI, being knock kneed or on inside edges only is better than being on outside edges or opposing edges on each ski. The bottomline is that you being an examiner is obvious that a) you ski a hell of lot more than the majority of your students b) skiing is your life/career c) your athletic ability is far greater than than average skier/student.

You may not feel that fixing your own stance is worth while, but I bet if you were trying out for the National 'D' Team or your Division 'D' Team it potentially could be the difference in you being successful or going far in the tryouts. Just an observation, but if you are truly 3 degrees out of alignment and you are an examiner I bet you have plateaued in your personal skiing and that's fine if you feel you have reach a certain status in the teaching community and you think you can't get any better, but why not find out for yourself how much sweeter and crisper your turns could be?
post #38 of 51
skijunkie
A knock kneed skier stands on their outside edges when their skis are parallel. If the skis are flat the knees are together. Conversly a skier who is on their inside edges with parallel shins looks bowlegged when the skis are flat.
If I've misinterpreted your understanding from the above post I apologize. It appears that you think the opposite is true.

Mr Smooth didn't make examiner skiing knock kneed. He learned to adapt so that he made good turns while looking correct in his body position(as FastMan and I can do) For me, however, it took skiing with correct alignment to understand what it was supposed to feel like. Correct alignment makes skiing clean turns almost effortless. Witherall said in The Athletic Skier, "the last 20% makes 80% of the difference". That means, when you get to the last 2 strips of duc tape you'll say "OH YEAH"
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by FastMan:


Slatz, I've done the Warren test. Done 2 degrees worth of tape on the side of the binding. Result: didn't feel much difference, my body instantly adapted. Reversed the skis. Result: didn't feel much difference, my body quickly adapted.

I suspect that millions of recreational skis (myself included) have inadvertently performed the Warren test (or worse) by not properly removing the snow from the boot base before jamming the boot into the binding. In many cases they probably don't notice any difference. I think the human body does adapt to small changes automatically. Surfers and skateboarders don't have bindings to guide their feet to the ideal position on their equipment, but they adapt every time.
post #40 of 51
James
I won't argue with you on that. If you've never felt it right in the first place you won't notice being a little farther off.
Everyone agrees you can adapt as long as you know what it is you're trying to adapt to.
post #41 of 51
Bootfitting, footbeds, cant are all nice. Dipstick, I'm betting you're not that far off now. I'm also betting the problems you are having are technique related and not equipment related. You are a relatively new skier and can most likely use some lessons like we all do from time to time. Find somebody to work with you starting from near scratch. I've been teaching for over twenty years and review the basics every year. You're never too good to go back to the basics. I think you would be well served to go back to the basics also. Take it slow and it'll come to you. Have a good one.
post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by SLATZ:
skijunkie
A knock kneed skier stands on their outside edges when their skis are parallel. If the skis are flat the knees are together. Conversly a skier who is on their inside edges with parallel shins looks bowlegged when the skis are flat.
If I've misinterpreted your understanding from the above post I apologize. It appears that you think the opposite is true.

Mr Smooth didn't make examiner skiing knock kneed. He learned to adapt so that he made good turns while looking correct in his body position(as FastMan and I can do) For me, however, it took skiing with correct alignment to understand what it was supposed to feel like. Correct alignment makes skiing clean turns almost effortless. Witherall said in The Athletic Skier, "the last 20% makes 80% of the difference". That means, when you get to the last 2 strips of duc tape you'll say "OH YEAH"
SLATZ - A knock-kneed skier is pronated, which means they stand naturally on their inside edges. A bowlegged skier is supinated which means their natural stance is on the outside edges. All this being a said a knock-kneed skier has to push his feet (ankles/knees)out to be flat on his skis and a bowlegged skier has to push his feet (ankles/knees) in to be flat.

I assess people's stances on a regular basis as a bootfitter in addition to being a ski coach. Even the most accomplished skiers after being outfitted with orthotics and/or sole planning can improve their turning performance and use less energy skiing thus resulting in more effecient skiing.

I am quite aware of Mr. Witherall's writings, as Warren was far ahead of his time. Stance is not just about pronation and supination, it's also equally important to assess dorsiflexion (the degree of fore/aft anlkle flexion)which can impact how one moves through the turn. Again skiing precisely is a function of dialed in stance and solid technique.
post #43 of 51
skijunkie
I was talking about with boots on and skis flat. Sorry.
You obviously know more about feet and what goes on inside the boot than I do. I've been working with canting and boot grinding for quite some time but leave the "inside" work to people like you.

Interesting note
Over the weekend I was at the Lutsen Spring Series where several of the "pace skiers" were members of the Austrian "B" team.
One night after dinner I asked about their approach to alignment and some of the top skiers like Pranger and Schoenfelder. The coach and a couple athletes all said they "don't do anything with it", that "it's not important" and "you have to adapt". The coach, Paul Schwarzacher, had recently written a Master's thesis on Extremes and Adaptation to them.
I haven't had time to process all the things we talked about. As a hard core "technoweenie" I'm re-thinking some things. Too bad I won't be able to try some of it until next year.
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by SLATZ:
skijunkie
I was talking about with boots on and skis flat. Sorry.
You obviously know more about feet and what goes on inside the boot than I do. I've been working with canting and boot grinding for quite some time but leave the "inside" work to people like you.

Interesting note
Over the weekend I was at the Lutsen Spring Series where several of the "pace skiers" were members of the Austrian "B" team.
One night after dinner I asked about their approach to alignment and some of the top skiers like Pranger and Schoenfelder. The coach and a couple athletes all said they "don't do anything with it", that "it's not important" and "you have to adapt". The coach, Paul Schwarzacher, had recently written a Master's thesis on Extremes and Adaptation to them.
I haven't had time to process all the things we talked about. As a hard core "technoweenie" I'm re-thinking some things. Too bad I won't be able to try some of it until next year.
That's very interesting, because that would be almost impossible being that most World Cup Teams A, B, C & Development teams athletes wear plug boots, which typically start at 150 flex index and have the lowest of volumes. Typically these boots can not fit most peoples feet out of the box because of their low volume. The boots are made with much thicker plastic than consumer boots to accomodate custom modification. BTW, the boot lab I work for is one of the only shops in America that sells Race Plug boots. Furthermore, all the top World Cup teams have either boot techs or the manufacturers supply a master boot technician to fit the respective teams athletes. I would say in regards to what that coach told you he was probably not aware of to the degree of what goes on as far as boot fitting. Especially for the 'A' Teams, the manufacturers provide full tech support for each athlete because they are representing their compainies internationally on TV and want to give the athlete every opportunity to win. Racing at the the World Cup level is ALWAYS a serious consideration when it comes to bootfitting and alignment.

Is Lusten in MN?
post #45 of 51
That's a good point.
When I brought the subject up Paul referred me to one of the athletes. The other athletes agreed though.
Paul is a physical trainer. His Masters degree is in Sports Science.
Another thing occurred to me though. These athletes had all come through Stams Acadamy. You have to pass an entrance exam that includes a full orthopedic evaluation. If you don't pass all the areas of the exam, you are not accepted. Most likely they don't need much correction. Most good skiers that I've checked are pretty close to begin with.
Yes, Lutsen is in Minnesota. There was $15,000 in prize money. The penalties were in the 10s. It was a great experience for the kids(me too)
post #46 of 51
Slatz, there's much to be said for the power of adapting, and it's interesting to hear what the Austrians told you, but I'm not sure I'd believe everything they tell us. Sneaky devils, those Euros!

I did hear about some of the European racers making some pretty radical over canting modifications fairly recently, can't personally confirm it, info came from Chad Fliesher. It would contradict what these guys told you. Obviously, someone has a wire crossed.

I like the prize money idea at Minn. spring races. I would think it would help to negate some of the concerns about sandbagging. I just attended the Slush Cup point races in Western NY. They had similar penalties, in the teens. Both Marshals were there, Vonn, Ligety. No prize money, their incentives were provided up front, so sandbagging could be a more legitimate concern. I didn't see any clear anchor dragging going on, but they weren't skiing on the edge. Some kids got some amazing points out of it (one of my kids won the first SL), the penalties in NY are going to be pretty low next season!
post #47 of 51
I mentioned that about Chad Fleischer. I heard him say that too. I also mentioned Bode. They kind of poo pooed it.
I also looked at their boots(mostly Nordica & Lange) every chance I got for signs of beveling or other mods. I couldn't see any other than some risers.
When I said 10s I meant like 10 point something. Women's were in the teens for the Natioal Point series because some of the "pace" skiers left after the FIS portion.
After all that squawking about Lutsen all summer it seems that the things that people were complaining about go on elswhere too :
I've been on staff for the spring series almost from the beginning. The instructions to the athletes have always been "ski your best so the kids can see what it's supposed to look like". The course setters are instructed to "set so that the pace team can go all out" and the course crews are told to make sure the course is safe and clean when they go "so they won't be afraid to let it go"
There is always the lack of motivation and fear of an injury on the athlete's part however.
post #48 of 51
After the last time Brigitte Obermoser (AUT) won a World Cup race she was interviewed by the Austrian meadia. She stated that her coach had installed strips of tape inside her boot, (at the bottom of the liner)the night before the race and that helped her to adgree that she won the race. That was in the middle of the season. Guys like Lasse Kjus and Christian Mayer constantly talk about modifications to their boots. Everybody knows about Bode. It is not very likely that these guys just grab their boots out of the box and ski on them. BTW, ther is no Masters degree in the Austrian Academic System.
post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Biowolf:
After the last time Brigitte Obermoser (AUT) won a World Cup race she was interviewed by the Austrian meadia. She stated that her coach had installed strips of tape inside her boot, (at the bottom of the liner)the night before the race and that helped her to adgree that she won the race. That was in the middle of the season. Guys like Lasse Kjus and Christian Mayer constantly talk about modifications to their boots. Everybody knows about Bode. It is not very likely that these guys just grab their boots out of the box and ski on them. BTW, ther is no Masters degree in the Austrian Academic System.
No ONE skis a PLUG boot out of the box....PERIOD. Every world cupper on a national team has had modifications to their boots...period. Good post Biowolf.
post #50 of 51
Paul is a real gentleman. He's very intelligent and a nice guy. I didn't get the feeling he was trying to put something over on me. I'm aware that a lot of work is needed inside to make any boot fit for racing. I also know that there are alignment things that can't be done on the inside. They have to be done at the boot sole, "where the rubber meets the road". That's what I was asking about and looking for.
We had a number of interesting conversations on a large variety of subjects. His mother is from Ireland and he has skied for Ireland in the Olympics.
post #51 of 51
I agree with SJ, D(C) and FastMan... and because it's something I've been plagued with for the past 4 seasons... ask weems about me "giving up the hip" and you'll get some good chuckles (especially if you add the bit of the "chicken wing" going on at the same time)

weems is good enough to see that my alignment within my boots is good, and that the weak hip placement is at issue. yoda has been telling me the same for 3 seasons.

don't start by swapping the boots. but definitely start by inspecting their fit as well as footbed issues, then of course look at the boot cuffs and possible sole grinding.

to assume it's the boot's fault for having a "rotary" or "lateral" or other labelled style of design is just plain preposterous. at least inspect the facts first. come on, folks!
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