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carved traverse as a task

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by WVSkier:
dchan wrote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The traverse is usually a "targeted, carved" traverse. The task we did during our clinic was across a medium steep hill, firm pack. the goal was to make a perfectly straight traverse with 2 medium spaced (10-12 inches apart) carved tracks aimed at a target across the hill. This shows very fine edge control with some steering. If you just carve the traverse, you would get an arc in the traverse so you have to lighten up the edge angle to get the ski to run straight. Terrain will dictate that you need to make very fine adjustments to your edge angles to keep this line straight. Also maintaining the 10-12 inch (or whatever the examiner demo shows) requires independent leg steering, proper weight distribution and matched edge angles. All a lot harder than it sounds as well.
How is it physically possible to make a straight traverse without any slideslip? The shape to the ski, even with little pressure would make the ski take a curved course over the snow. I don't think it's physically possible do do this without some slideslip.

In the east, the traverse tasks on the exams involve doing them on one ski. In the Level II exam it's the downhill ski, in the Level III it's the uphill ski.

In both circumstances the examiner is looking for balance and stance, and a carved (i.e. no skidding) path across the snow. It's really a balance exercise more than anything, and one that requires a lot of practice.

In the east we have a core set of about a dozen tasks that can be used in the exam. As with the traverse task above, they are the same tasks but executed slightly differently at each level. Of the dozen, the examiners decide which three will be used in that particular exam and each examiner tests for the same three tasks. One great task is "super slow skiing". As we all know speed hides a great many things and the super-slow is a great way to see if the person is executing correctly.

(Note that this is only for the skiing portion of the exam, which is a two days, i.e no teaching involved. If you pass the skiing portion you can then take the teaching exam.)

Bob
</font>[/quote]Interesting thoughts. Yes, A targeted carved traverse would require some "sideslip" but if done correctly the slip would be tips and tails and the center of the ski would still be a locked carve. The resulting track would still look like a single carved track or in the case of our tasks, 2 carved tracks evenly spaced all the way across the hill. We did both a true carve (point down hill and tip them, bend the skis, and ride them on what ever arc the ski radius gave us.

Using the carved arc shows that you can put the ski on edge and not input any rotary movement and no skidding.

The targeted carved traverse shows balance, and very fine edge control as you adjust your edge angle to keep the ski moving straight across the hill. You have to make adjustments for terrain to keep the track straight. The fact that they want to see 2 solid carved tracks tells me they want to see the balance even on both skis and that there is some inside leg steering and input. not just a second ski along for the ride.

I believe that there are several (a dozen?) tasks that they are allowed to select from here in the west. In our case, I think it is decided early in the season what tasks they will test for. Then all the prep clinics can help work on those tasks. For the level 2 exam we did 2 days of teaching/skiing with different examiners on each day. All the tasks, demo's and teaching portions were done with each examiner.
post #2 of 12
Quote:
A targeted carved traverse would require some "sideslip" but if done correctly the slip would be tips and tails and the center of the ski would still be a locked carve.
Please explain?

How does one do a straight, on edge traverse leaving two clean edge only tracks on modern shaped ski equipment? I venture that it is impossible. If we apply weight to both skis on edge, in an open stance and attempt to traverse we will always go uphill.

This fact is the essence of "contemporary skiing".

Oz

[ May 02, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: man from oz ]
post #3 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by man from oz:
Please explain?

How does one do a straight, on edge traverse leaving two clean edge only tracks on modern shaped ski equipment? I venture that it is impossible. If we apply weight to both skis on edge, in an open stance and attempt to traverse we will always go uphill.

This fact is the essence of "contemporary skiing".
Oz
so don't apply weight, just balance on 'em.

I'm not going to try to explain it, but I have seen more than one person do it. It's a task in the level 1 exam here in the NW. It really isn't all that hard. It has to do with body alignment as much as anything else.

[ May 02, 2003, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #4 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by man from oz:
Please explain?

How does one do a straight, on edge traverse leaving two clean edge only tracks on modern shaped ski equipment? I venture that it is impossible. If we apply weight to both skis on edge, in an open stance and attempt to traverse we will always go uphill.

This fact is the essence of "contemporary skiing".

Oz
Thanks - saved me from asking [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #5 of 12
The confusion is very justified. This drill obviously can't be executed as a pure carve, something must be done to negate the direction change a carve produces.

Start by employing the lowest edge angle possible that still keeps the skis from losing their grip and slipping downhill. The lower the edge the less direction change the skis will produce, so the less correction that has to be made.

Now there are two ways to correct for carve direction change, side slipping or steering, and either one disrupts the purity of the carve. The goal is to minimize the evidence of that disruption in the track. Side slipping would involve a lightening of the edge to the point of loss of grip. For this to work the skis would have to remain at all times pointed somewhat uphill of the target and the track would display a semi washed carve appearance. Steering would involve a counter steer (steering away from the turn) that would seek to keep the skis pointed in the direction of the target, and if executed continuously (not off and on) would result in a track with less of a wash appearance.

This is a cute little drill for refining edge control and rotational skills, but direct application to actual skiing situations is limited because reverse steering is not a technique often called on. That said, it has value because versatility should always be a primary focus on upper level skill development.
post #6 of 12
And by the way, you guys are lucky I'm not the one directing the certification testing. You'd be doing all the skiing skill tasks, not just a pre selected 3 that you had weeks to practice before the test. What a poor excuse for an evaluation of skiing ability.
post #7 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by FastMan:
The confusion is very justified. This drill obviously can't be executed as a pure carve, something must be done to negate the direction change a carve produces.

Now there are two ways to correct for carve direction change, side slipping or steering, and either one disrupts the purity of the carve.
Fastman, have you ever really done these?

a) the drill CAN be executed as a pure carve.

b) you forgot the first way to direct carve direction; where and how you balance on the tool. If you use that one no 'correction' is needed.
post #8 of 12
Central Division examiners have been playing with the targeted traverse as an exercise for several seasons now. I don't think it's been an exam task here yet, but it's possible it was used in the last two Central eastern exams. The day prior to the next-to-last exam here, all the participating examiners worked several hours on targeted and pure-carve traverse maneuvers.

Central currently is working up an exam task video for possible use next season. As I understand it, the video will be sent to member schools for training use. It may also be available for individual purchases. The examiners participating in an event agree ahead of each event which of the tasks will be used for that exam and how they will be evaluated.
post #9 of 12
Thread Starter 
Before we all start claiming it's a pure care or some slipage, Can we agree on something?

In the whole scope of things, Can we agree that a "pure carve" is really a goal but not truely a reality. As mere mortal skiers we all have some slipage in our carved turns. Snow conditions and variations will see to that.

The 2 tasks that we were asked to do are..

1. Aim your skis down the hill some, feet spaced a comfortable width apart, tip them on edge and carve a turn back up the hill. Our first examiner said very specificly he wanted to see some speed, some pressure build up under the ski and how we managed the pressure. He wanted to see that ski bend and he wanted to see two carved evenly spaced tracks with minimal skiding. He also explained that based on the ski design he knew we should all end up at different places on the hill.

2. "See that tree on the other side of the run" get lined up with the tree, (aim your skis directly at that tree) skis spaced apart (again a comfortable distance (8-12") and traverse directly towards that tree. As straight as possible. 2 clean "carved" tracks evenly spaced.

The first "pure carve" turn I found very easy.

The second targeted carved traverse took much more skill. As I see it if you are balanced over both skis and tip the ski hard (high edge angle) you will turn up the hill. If you flatten your ski just enough to not engage the tips and tails, but keep enough edge angle to not start side slipping, your skis will run almost down hill. So buy adjusting this edge angle ever so slightly, you should be able to "carve" with the part of the ski that is under foot, and the tips and tails will "scarve" producing 2 very clean tracks that look like a carved track. Do it with even pressure on both skis, it will look like 2 RR tracks across the hill. This task shows the ability to make very subtle adjustments to all for primary skills. It requires very fast adjustments in very small amounts. If done on uneven terrain it only makes the task more validating.
post #10 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by Roto:

Fastman, have you ever really done these?

a) the drill CAN be executed as a pure carve.

b) you forgot the first way to direct carve direction; where and how you balance on the tool. If you use that one no 'correction' is needed.[/QB]
No, I haven't Roto, but it's not necessary to know that the sidecut of a ski will not allow it to track straight when put on edge and pressured. And you can't "not pressure it" while traversing unless you have a rope hanging from the clouds that you can grab onto and hoist your body weight up off your skis.

And no, I didn't forget about directing the carve by how we balance on the skis. It was one of the first things I addressed when I said to ride a low edge to minimize direction change. But no matter how low the edge the ski will produce some change direction in a carve. The only way to maintain the straight line is to counter scarve. To argue otherwise is to argue with scientific principle. The correction may be so minimal as to make it sensually undetectable to the skier doing the correcting but believe me, it has to be there!

DCHAN SAYS:
So buy adjusting this edge angle ever so slightly, you should be able to "carve" with the part of the ski that is under foot, and the tips and tails will "scarve" producing 2 very clean tracks that look like a carved track.

It requires very fast adjustments in very small amounts.

FASTMAN:
That would be a more logical and scientifically sound assessment of what it taking place. My only problem would be with the idea that the middle of the ski would carve while the tips and tail would steer (scarving is carving supplemented with a small degree of steering). The ski has no hinges, it works as a single unit, so it the tips and tails are steering then the whole ski is steering. If it were possible to remove the role of the tips and tails (bend them up off the snow, per se) and just carve with the underfoot portion of the ski you would still turn because that portion of the ski also has its own degree of side cut. Adjustments would still be necessary, as you allude to in your bottom sentence.

[ May 02, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: FastMan ]
post #11 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
That would be a more logical and scientifically sound assessment of what it taking place. My only problem would be with the idea that the middle of the ski would carve while the tips and tail would steer (scarving is carving supplemented with a small degree of steering). The ski has no hinges, it works as a single unit, so it the tips and tails are steering then the whole ski is steering. If it were possible to remove the role of the tips and tails (bend them up off the snow, per se) and just carve with the underfoot portion of the ski you would still turn because that portion of the ski also has its own degree of side cut. Adjustments would still be necessary, as you allude to in your bottom sentence.
This is the reason I put up the comment about a pure carve not being possible. It's all a degree of "scarving" the center of the ski (underfoot) would have a minimal bit of skid/carve, the tips and tails would have more skid. and yes there has to be some steering to keep the skis tracking straight. These are all minute adjustments.
post #12 of 12
Just like turns carved traverses can be shaped and controlled.

Skis don't make only one turn, they are capable of many. The same goes for traverses
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