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youcanski vids... Thanks Greg.... - Page 3  

post #61 of 81
ssh & BigE,
 
Please agree to disagree, use your PM feature, the ignore list, or take it up on TGR but please don't make it personal.  We are all passionate skiers, & we have that as a common bond.  Check yourselves & loose the hate.  I was enjoying this thread. 

There are certainly different levels of versatility as well as different understandings of the word.  Perhaps this thread has morphed into one on versatility which is fine.  It is certainly what I seek in my own skiing & I think that is a goal of many skiers.

Thanks,
JF
post #62 of 81
Thanks 4ster.  This is a good thread and the expansion about versatility and the questions BigE posted are a nice challenge for the mind, thoughts, knowledge/lack of knowledge, understanding and established paradigms.

Having just re-entered the world of athletics & sports after decades away, it has been interesting observing progression as I view it, and regressions. I suspect there is a big difference of opinions in the definitions of "athlete" as well as differences in what  a "pro-athlete" is.  An even wider rift between beliefs in specilization and those who value the benefits of versatility and the possibilities that can bring to a sport.   
post #63 of 81
Yes. Communication, challenging ones beliefs, paradigm shifting, experimentation, evolution, new & better understanding = innovation.
JF
Edited by 4ster - 10/21/09 at 12:01pm
post #64 of 81
This discussion is very encouraging, in that the importance of versatility is apparently becoming a common thread of agreement between many schools of instruction.  It's a positive trend that will serve all members of the sport well.  Certain segments of the skiing world have understood this for years, yet there are others who from time to time have fallen victum to the one turn/transtion/position fit's all trap.  My observations tell me that recognition of the importance of versatility in skiing is becoming much more widespread.  Bravo. 
post #65 of 81
I think its important to clear the air, especially eventually. Otherwise we will continue go on making smartass remarks at each other and argue in circles answering questions with questions . E, if you post 30+ questions and you dont care to comment on not a single answere one any of them then I think you are very much wasting our time here. Mine at least. Its not polite and its not professional. And its not the type of communication 4ster calls out for.
post #66 of 81
My apologies TDK. I was not intentionally ignoring you.
post #67 of 81

I was hoping for more answers from more people, but the point of the exercise is to DO the exercise.

It is supposed to show you how you approach skiing.  There are many questions there that are quite loaded -- for example, is tipping the feet first always necessary? Not at all. You can make a turn without doing that.  Same with projection. You don't have to move the body, the "turn" can be a pure cross-under, with the body moving straight down the fall-line.  But that is really not much of a turn is it?

4ster answered that he had a "go to" move.  IMO, most folks do. 

CTkook said that most skiers all have the same posture regardless of terrain.  That's true for most peoples recreational turns.

<looks around to check for someone in the bushes>

But seriously, the answers are solely relevant to your skiing.

Here's how I'd answer them:

Quick questions:

is early edge engagement ie. Hi C engagement, faster or slower? Slower

is a round turn fast or slow? Slower

is angulation fast or slow? Slower

is angulation a "go to" technique and always the best tool for the job? No.

should a skier always counter-rotate? No.

is wind-up anticipation always desirable? No

==============================================
I could see folks answering Yes to many of these.  I did already mention that the round turn is a speed maintaining turn, and not the fastest turn -- that would be comma shaped. 

The notion of angulation being slow comes from the common error of skiing with too high an edge too early.  That is slow.

Angulation WAS the go-to technique for me at one time. There is no shame in that.

Counter-rotation is always there if you prefer to arc your skis. 

Always skiing with wind-up anticipation indicates to me you prefer a pivot entry.

==============================================

 

should a skier always take the line far into the turn? No.  By this I mean you don't always go as straight as possible across the hill, then turn hard.

does being inclined provide a stronger or weaker stance? Stronger.


is inclination the "go to" technique? No. Just like angulation, it has it's place.

should it be used for each and every turn? No.  The CSCF for one, says differently -- inclination THEN angulation.

can we mix inclination and angulation? Yes

is skiing into counter that mix? No. Counter is a rotational movement, it is necessary in neither inclination nor angulation to rotate. 

should a skier always flex to release? No.  I used to say Yes, but I can see moments where other releases may be preferable

should a skier always extend to release? No.  Saying yes to this is not very versatile. In fact saying yes to an "always" question is not versatile.  Even if it is "should a skier always have both edges facing down?"  Not for a nasty recovery.

is projection always correct? No.  eg. Turns straight down the "fall-line".  It can be argued that these too have projection, but I view them as pure cross-under.

is tipping first always correct? No.  I should have said tipping the feet, sorry.  However, I teach Yes.  A whole lot of other things in the list change when you say Yes to this!

does a racer only need to gain height on course because of technical error? No. the course can be set that way.

should the turn apex always be above the gate? No. it can be beside or below based on course demands.

is a narrow stance always preferred? No. Try a narrow tuck at warp speed.

is pivotting the skis prior to turn entry always a technical error? No.  You may need to lop off the top of the arc, through no fault of your own.

should a racer arc each and every turn? No.  Bode at Solden intentionally skidded every second turn to scrub speed.


should the CM always be above the feet? No. How can you flex to release like that?

does the action of the pole plant help with re-centering? yes.

does a pole plant help with timing? Yes

does a pole plant block the rotation of the upper body? Yes.  But very little when the pole is just tapped and not dug in to the snow.




 

post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post





Actually, GG took a lot of heat for that, among other things.  He posted here as SkiCoach, the threads are likely still findable.  The bump coaches who've posted here took heat for advocating the same thing, and obviously some other posters likewise took heat for it.  A post detailing what summer race camps are working on generated a lot of heat for the same reasons.  Why the fundamentals of good skiing are troubling to a lot of the talking heads here is an interesting question, but it's there.

I saw a report showing that wc skiers use different weight distribution depending on situation. Im not sure if that can or should be used for mortal standards but my hunch regarding the one vs two foot weight distribution debate is that probably the ones speaking for 100% weight on outside ski have gripes dealing with people speaking of 50/50. And vice versa. Here nobody gets booted for claiming something different to general opinion. Its how you say it and how many times. If your communication skills are up to regular standards then there should be no problem. Marketing that is in conflict with ESA will get you booted. Maybe that was the problem with the mogul coaches. Marketing camps.
post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




I saw a report showing that wc skiers use different weight distribution depending on situation. Im not sure if that can or should be used for mortal standards but my hunch regarding the one vs two foot weight distribution debate is that probably the ones speaking for 100% weight on outside ski have gripes dealing with people speaking of 50/50. And vice versa. Here nobody gets booted for claiming something different to general opinion. Its how you say it and how many times. If your communication skills are up to regular standards then there should be no problem. Marketing that is in conflict with ESA will get you booted. Maybe that was the problem with the mogul coaches. Marketing camps.

No.

The bumps coaches in question were not booted, nor marketing camps.  The big issues technically were their advocacy of being on the outside ski as much as possible, pressuring the boot tongues, narrow stance in bumps, and use of absorption/extension.  Some senior posters here thought that being two-footed with a wider stance, "cuff-neutral", and fairly constantly tall were the keys to bump happiness.  One very senior poster was even quite insistent that no one, not even competitive bumpers, could control speed thru A&E, even after how A&E can suck up speed was explained to him.

Trying to speculate and assume negative conduct on the part of these posters to excuse their taking heat for advocating good skiing does not help the information value on here.

GG and other similar coaches with significant international experience have likewise taken heat for much the same things.  Not for marketing, but for advocating good fundamentals.  (Obviously where one goes with those fundamentals can be very different, witness racing vs competitive bumping.)

None of the coaches we are referring to, whether coaches who have posted or others, advocates 100% outside ski all the time, btw. 
post #70 of 81

Thanks for your responce to the list. Now reading it I understand the "go to" move. I answered falcely because I did not understand. A and I are not go to moves for me eather. Apart from that and the three first on your list we answered pritty much in line:

SF
SF
SF
NN
NN
NN
NY
SS
NY
NN
YY
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
NN
YY
YY
YY

I was thinking that a rounded carved turn would be faster than a skidded comma turn but I guess the comma turn can be carved as well. Just more intence. Or a skidded comma turn can be quick as well.

post #71 of 81
Thread Starter 
Oh dear...I was having computer troubles and I missed my mark- I owe BigE and apology because it was MGskier  I was aiming for. Sorry BigE.  
At last; a forum in the technical section that is mostly experrrt in it's content ... Thanks guys .    The Berger ROCKS ...great skiing.  rocks...maybe we could add that along with will, attack and try...Rocks.
Does it really matter if it was Greg or Pallander - at least for demo purposes ? It got me to start this 'thing'... about good technical skiing and language.
Look, what I was getting at was that most of the discussions sound like our very dear friend and commentator Karen-Lee-G.  You know- where a skier pushes too hard or does some other undefinable/ invisible.
What was lacking also was the concept of ' Race the Race and Ski the Hill '. When the course - or skiing- is 'easier' we get to put the boots to it because it keeps us at the limit of forces we can handle...not laying back. And when the course or hill is too steep or the move too abrupt you have to  'survive' it by skidding and dumping energy - or in Berger's clip - keeping the radius smaller...
In bigE's fifty zen koans is some thing I could apply to this. The WC skiers pull off down-un-weight transitions when they are able to manage the force and can handle a quick edge change...and when the forces are greater they up-unweight because this buys them time to get set-up for landing. The coolest is the down-unweight to stivot. And THEY skid when they have too... Bode and the skid form the Weems' Will post...But i go in circles.
Edited by g-force - 10/21/09 at 11:30pm
post #72 of 81
GG thanks for sharing, been to your web site and done some reading. It is always interesting and informative. I'm just an old broken down ski instructor looking for ideas. Your skiing shows your thoughts unlike many. Thanks again ,,Dan
post #73 of 81
Hi everyone, this is my first time writing in this forum in any forum really.
i just want to say that Gregory Gurshman is a World Cup coach.
he has been working with many national teams for many years Canadians, French,Swiss, Italian... at this moment he is working with Austrains national team as a technical consultant.
He has posted youtube videos of modern ski racing technique for people like us that anyone can benefit from it. The free skiing videos are very helpful Greg is showing exactly modern racing ski technique.
Going back you are also discussing Projection .
Turn has phases 1-inclination, before the fall line, creating edge....
2-extention, entering fall line, increasing edge....
3-angulation after the fall line, keeping the balance against the edge....
0- is re-centering movement, transition between the turns......
Projection is 0-1 is part of re-centering going to the next turn. Transition movement of CM in the direction of future turn, upper body and hips are pojected forward with the racer's CM crossing over the skis.
Of course there is much more in to it... and yes I have learnt this from Greg website youcanski.com
Marianna
post #74 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by giga1002 View Post

i just want to say that Gregory Gurshman is a World Cup coach.... at this moment he is working with Austrains national team as a technical consultant.
 

Highly doubtful GG is a 'technical consultant' to the strongest ski team in the world...  Based on my evaluation of his materials, he's much better at creating an inflated aura of his coaching prowess than he is at actually delivering the goods.  Should the above be true (not possible), we may actually see team AUT lose the overall Nation's Cup for the first time in 20 years.
post #75 of 81
whygimf - pritty strong assumptions in many ways on your part. Lets hope that all teams do well and that GG can learn something from the Austrians. BTW, what does a technical consultant do? Thanks for the input marianna and please keep us posted on GG and what he is up to.
post #76 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

whygimf - pritty strong assumptions in many ways on your part. Lets hope that all teams do well and that GG can learn something from the Austrians. BTW, what does a technical consultant do? Thanks for the input marianna and please keep us posted on GG and what he is up to.

It seems to me, a technical cunsultant may do anything from selecting wax to selecting wine.  He may or may not have an effect on the outcome of the Nations Cup .
JF
post #77 of 81
I see, Criticism is very important in this forum
You know guys; I understand; without the knowledge its much easier to be critical than to be correct
Marianna
post #78 of 81
Marianna, dont take it too personally. This is an internet forum and you might or might not be talking someone who knows something about skiing. I did not like the comment whygimf made of GG but it really had nothing to do with eather guys coaching or skiing skills (I dont know eather person). Like in any forum you need to stick arround and grow into it. Earn respect and get to know the people. Its amaizing how much valuable information is available for free of charge today on the net. And in this particular forum you can very freely discuss and debate different styles and techniques. This thread for instance is getting good and bad feedback. When I read product reviws on stuff on the net Im more interested in the bad reviews than the good ones. Same applies here. Just because they rant doesent mean that they are or that they are wrong. Thats usually where the most valuable information is but it requires an open mind. whygimf, I would much rather be coached by you than by the Austrian WC team .
post #79 of 81
Thanks tdk6. I understand what are you saying
its just some responses about Greg didnt sound on proffesional level to me at all.
I am from europe and I live US now. I know Greg and know he is respected around the world...thats all
Marianna
post #80 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by giga1002 View Post

Thanks tdk6. I understand what are you saying
its just some responses about Greg didn't sound on professional level to me at all.
I am from Europe and I live US now. I know Greg and know he is respected around the world...that's all
Marianna
 
giga. There is a marketed ski teaching system who's leader and followers  is at odd with other teachers he feels make a convenient target to help market his product. Greg G is his current target . That is why  Heluva  and whygimf seek to offer their opinions in respect to Greg's teaching. Ignore it or explore the differences by investigating their marketed product.

Either way this is not their battle ground for their intentions and it would be better if they kept it on the PMTS forum where it belongs and not clutter this forum with thinly veiled criticisms pointed towards their usual targets.


Edit. I believe I had included 4ster  incorrectly and apologize for the reference.
Edited by GarryZ - 10/24/09 at 1:56pm
post #81 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
giga. There is a marketed ski teaching system who's leader and followers  is at odd with other teachers he feels make a convenient target to help market his product. Greg G is his current target . That is why , Heluva , 4str and whygimf seek to offer their opinions in respect to Greg's teaching. Ignore it or explore the differences by investigating their marketed product.
 

Quote:
It seems to me, a technical consultant may do anything from selecting wax to selecting wine.
 

My comment above was in no way aimed at GG or his methodology, right or wrong.  I was merely giving my take on what a "Technical Consultant's" role may or may not be.  If it was taken the wrong way, I apologize.  I don't even like kool aid!

I just got done watching the opening WC race in Soelden, & as far as I can tell, there is no one way to enter a turn.  I saw lots of stivots on the steep, I saw some inclination, I saw some stepping, I saw some phantom moves,  I saw some extended entries, I saw some retracted entries, I saw some A-framing, I saw some crossunder, I saw some crossover.  I also saw some great racing & a bunch of blue Lange boots.

Thanks,

JF
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