or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › MA request - skiing on easy groomer (video inside)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MA request - skiing on easy groomer (video inside) - Page 3

post #61 of 82
Cool, I'd like to see one.
post #62 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

A question out of left field -- does this discussion (especially the different responses to the 2 videos) cast doubt on the oft-heard prescription to "take them back to the greens to work on fundamentals".  Is there a problem skiing naturally (without excess self-consciousness changing all movement patterns) on runs that are too easy?
Good point. I for one think that skiing on easy green runs is very educating. This whole carving business has given me back all the green and european blue runs and given me 90% more range to ski at on a normal ski resort. I can now enjoy easy slopes as well as more difficult ones. I can ski with students, children and whife and get a good work out and enjoy skiing. Your question is very well put and very much on topic but nobody picked up on it. It almost seems like a fix for bad form or technique would be to increase speed, get onto higher edge angles and out of you comfortzone.  
post #63 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post

Let me answer by asking a question TDK. Do you really want to "use up" your range of motion in your hips to move into a countered position in the beginning of a turn?

Would I like to see continuous flexing and extending throughout those turns of yours? Yes. It might increase the range of motion your are using some but it doesn't need to be a drastic change in those turns. You focused on duration, I was just giving an example of how tied together rate and duration are. Changing the duration generally changes the rate at which you make a movement, but rate can change independently during the duration of a movement.

In your OP you stated that you thought that you were skiing pretty relaxed, are you looking at it differently now?
 

Yes, Im looking at it differently now. But I would have to go out there and ski it all over and feel the difference. Thats the down side in such a discussion and thats why its hard to say for sure if I was relaxed or not. BTW, how much does "intensity" chew "relaxed"? How relaxed can you look when you ski like I did on the video. Note that Im not a very loosejointed and limbed kind of guy. For me relaxed might be stiff to someone else. In the demo I focussed on letting the skis carve and just balance.
post #64 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

TDK, I bet you could ski into counter if that was your desire.  Early counter can be a valuable learning tool for those students who never actually get there, but end up just following their skis from turn to turn.  It also helps provide that early pronation of the outside foot that makes edge engagement at intiation more powerful.  And,,, it offers the extra lateral balancing potential needed for arc to arc skiing in those slow speed, ultra round turns.  Skiing into counter during in those type of turns is a tough task. 

As far as using up range of motion, counter is only half of the equation of angulation.  Counter simply sets the stage for more intense forms of angulation via foreward flexion at the waist.  Even with full range of counter used up, that range of flexion movement at the waist sits ready and waiting to be used if/when needed.  More motion is still available to TDK iIn these turns, but it simply isn't needed.  The need for angulation increases exponentially with the increase in edge angle, and these are low edge angle turns.  TDK could ski like that all day.  Very low energy usage turns. 

Thanks for your input. Yes, I could ski like that all day since its only a question of balancing. And an easy smooth slope with little traffic. Not only that though, skiing like this enables me to hit more difficult terrain without being worn out. My strategy is also not to ski very fast all the time. I enjoy skiing slow as well and its very functional at times. There is a good clip from same trip of a guy overtaking me and my bro as we slowly make our way down at the end of a ski route. Guy passes and wipes out and there is a snapping sound of someting braking. He had his buddies with him with back packs and avalache gear so we did not stop. He was in good hands.

Anyway, the demo is strictly of being there for the ride. So in this light we can look at it and see pritty much what I do as a default. Im not saying there is anything wrong with countering but thats what I did and probably for the exact reasons you explained in your quote above. Its part of the balancing act and it tips the skis onto their edges very smoothly and puts my hips into the turn. What I should do however is do the same demo without counter at the top of the turn. I would probably end up looking exactly the same the first few times. If thats my default skiing then it will take time to work it out. If thats what I want. Its deffinetly worth a try.
post #65 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

to my eye, it also looks "contrived"

with a narrow stance AND the inside ski squirting forward, these become almost guaranteed:
    the hips are rather 'locked up'
    weight is back and on the tails
    the outside hip trails

   a slight up movement allows the other ski to then squirt forward for the next turn.

Do your boots have so much forward lean that hips back is the balance point?
    
My boots were set up very upright.
post #66 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




What I should do however is do the same demo without counter at the top of the turn. I would probably end up looking exactly the same the first few times. If thats my default skiing then it will take time to work it out. If thats what I want. Its deffinetly worth a try.
 

Yes, that would be a very good thing to do.  Show the contrast.  If you do, post it up here in a new thread with the one you have here of early counter.  It would serve as a good "teaching moment".  

Something that works well for both learning and showing skiing into counter is strapping your poles on your waist, one in front of your body and one behind.  Make a series of turns, always trying to keep the poles tips and handles pointing towards the sides of the slopes.  The poles show the directional orientation of the pelvis, which is constantly down the falline when done in the manner I described. 

NOTE; if anyone is interested in how to strap the poles on the waist, feel free to ask.  I or I'm sure one of the other pros here would be happy to explain it. 
post #67 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Why counter at edge change?  
 Why is it necessary?  
 What does it accomplish that skiing into and out of counter with the feet can't do?

You have demonstrated in the two videos two extremes of turn entry.  One with an upper body counter and the powder video with upper body rotation.  Perhaps the most fluid and efficient would be somewhere in the middle with the emphasis on lower leg steering?  Without getting hung up on the term "steering" as something negative, I would suggest by using just enough edge angle to preempt skidding, yet permit using the anticipation release of the feet catching up to the torso by the fall line then skiing into counter to finish the turn, you will be skiing the current PSIA National Team focus.  This may not be your goal of course but it is the image many of us in the US carry as a reference for good skiing these days.
 

At the end of last season I was getting more into holding onto my old counter from previous turn and starting the new turn anticipated. Just like you are describing. Im not aware of the PSIA focus but thats sounds very much like where Ive been going with my skiing last year. In the Levi clips I was trying to demo it but there was a mixt of feedback here on the actual outcome.

The word steering is not negative to me here at epic. I think that its an essential part of skiing. Eather you carve or you steer. You cannot ski if you cannot steer because if you want to controll your speed smoothly and brushing your turns is a great tool. In the clip of me in the OP steering would have had the following effect: it would have slowed me down and the turn radius would have been shorter.
post #68 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




Yes, Im looking at it differently now. But I would have to go out there and ski it all over and feel the difference. Thats the down side in such a discussion and thats why its hard to say for sure if I was relaxed or not. BTW, how much does "intensity" chew "relaxed"? How relaxed can you look when you ski like I did on the video. Note that Im not a very loosejointed and limbed kind of guy. For me relaxed might be stiff to someone else. In the demo I focussed on letting the skis carve and just balance.
For sure TDK, our points of view are definitely influenced by our personal view window and morphology. I was caught by the words you used to describe your skiing (relaxed) and how it morphed into the descriptor, "static" after some back and forth.

Talking about more continuous, supple, and relaxed  movement was a suggestion that I think would help you improve your chosen technique, not as way for you to change which technique you are using. To help you take what you "are" doing and improve it.

I commend you for putting yourself out there. Thanks TDK.
post #69 of 82

Don't take this the wrong way. I see you in control, but it's kind of like you're afraid to let go and ski. Do what you're doing, but crank it up, bend the legs, get some angles. Everything is tight, tight, tight, like you're posing for the camera. I think there's potential to start ripping here, but for some reason not doing it here.
Good stuff, hope this is helpful.

post #70 of 82
Thread Starter 
Thanks squawbomber for checking out the video and giving your comments. Yes, Im posing for the camera .

Lots of people have done the same observations: I should let go and start ripping and carving some serious angles. And many times I do. However, I always look stiff and static especially in a racing suit .

The demo builds on two basic intents: keep my legs together in a close stance and arc 100% carved turns. This is the outcome. And Im not really going that slow it just a little bit looks that way because of the static stance and the arcing skis.
post #71 of 82
I should have emphasized the positive more. It's very good skiing, so I think I came off pretty negative, which I didn't mean to be.
It sounds like you're working on pmts movement patterns. I think this is great: I've taken a ton of expert lessons over the years, and I really like the simplified, consistent approach of pmts. So I'm working on a lot of the same stuff. I think the key with the narrow stance is to remember it doesn't imply lack of dynamic movement or angles. The skis, at high angles, will be far apart even though the stance is still narrow, by pulling up the inside leg/ski. (I know you know this, but I'm addressing the "static" comments as they relate to narrow stance, which I agree with). Just watch Harb's demos!
We just need some snow dammit! Let's get this season going.
post #72 of 82
It would have been more helpful had you let us in on the intent of your run . After viewing your Javelin run ,which showed very good balance, it  looks like you filmed the same run with the ski placed onto the snow in the same stance as your Javelin but held onto the movement pattern you
used to balance over one ski through connected turns alternating to stay on the outside ski.

You finally stated your intent recently as a carved closed stance experiment. What did you learn from it ?
post #73 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post

It would have been more helpful had you let us in on the intent of your run . After viewing your Javelin run ,which showed very good balance, it  looks like you filmed the same run with the ski placed onto the snow in the same stance as your Javelin but held onto the movement pattern you
used to balance over one ski through connected turns alternating to stay on the outside ski.

You finally stated your intent recently as a carved closed stance experiment. What did you learn from it ?

 

Hi Garry, and thanks for your feedback. I talked about the intents in my second posting, posting #7. But I did not in the first one because I wanted people to watch it with an open mind. But glad you picked up on the synergy between the two. Both are demos from the same day and slope where I was working on some drills and this narrow stance clip is, just as you noted, the same as the javeline clip but not lifting the ski. Well, actually I did lift the ski, just a bit off the snow in some places, to check if my balance was over the outside ski and I did not have to make any recovery movements with my body. Cannot remember if I linked the javelin drill here before but let me do it once again:



Applied to skiing:


There are a lot of things I have learned from this. One of the most important things was forward/aft balance and sideways balance. In other words balance. Im still in the back seat but the drill forces me forwards. Im still banking a bit and it forces me to pressure my outside ski and angulate. I wasent paying attention to counter early in the turn so that would be my next thing to experiment with it. Is it possbile to stay anticipated and do the drill? There were two other good skiers with me on that day (one filming) but neather of them could do the drill just like that. Ive been working on it a lot and think I have made progress. Great observations, thanks.
post #74 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by squawbomber View Post

I should have emphasized the positive more. It's very good skiing, so I think I came off pretty negative, which I didn't mean to be.
It sounds like you're working on pmts movement patterns. I think this is great: I've taken a ton of expert lessons over the years, and I really like the simplified, consistent approach of pmts. So I'm working on a lot of the same stuff. I think the key with the narrow stance is to remember it doesn't imply lack of dynamic movement or angles. The skis, at high angles, will be far apart even though the stance is still narrow, by pulling up the inside leg/ski. (I know you know this, but I'm addressing the "static" comments as they relate to narrow stance, which I agree with). Just watch Harb's demos!
We just need some snow dammit! Let's get this season going.
No problem squawbomber. Yes I have been working on drills from the essentials but I was skiing with a close stance just for the heck of it long before I was aware of the consept. I think that its far from not being dynamic. Just because there is no movement doesent mean that its statick. Im balancing all the time and being very active. The movements are very subtle. When I ski very fast I try to do the same, stay very calm with my upper body. Like in powder skiing or in the bumps. My lack of up-unweighting has been a show stopper for me in clinics and cert demos over the years and I have always been accused of being too static but now with modern carving skis Im being cut some slack. Just trying to build on my versatility and become a better skier.
post #75 of 82

my point was more general in that the narrow stance advocated by pmts doesn't imply being static or not generating huge angles.
has all the feedback been helpful at all, or just sort of fun?

post #76 of 82
Late to the party and have not read the thread yet but here is my quick thought.

Stand up. Lengthen your legs away from the hill and allow your hips to move forward. This will help you balance over the ski, move into and through the turn and not be so static. THink verticle thighs at the edge change.

I could not believe the video was the same person as the still photo on your profile. It sounds like you were working on a specific thing in the video but I love the image of the still photo with both legs active and balanced over the outside ski with out being over rotated or to square. The video clip had a lot more full body turning and week inside leg activity creating a slight A frame.
post #77 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by squawbomber View Post

my point was more general in that the narrow stance advocated by pmts doesn't imply being static or not generating huge angles.
has all the feedback been helpful at all, or just sort of fun?


Lots of great feedback here. Trying to drop that early counter and that slight a-frame, more forward lean and keeping both skis on the snow are things to work on. This thread generated much more good feedback than I was expecting. 

Narrow stance and being overly static has offcourse nothing to do with each. Its not stance width specific. Im not trying to find excuses but I know the performance is not as static as it appears to be. One intent was to stay as solid as possibly allowing for only necessary movements. There are no leg flexing or extending movements. Its just riding the sidecut. The aim is to be more static than dynamic. Sounds crazy but thats one way of looking at it.
post #78 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todo View Post

Late to the party and have not read the thread yet but here is my quick thought.

Stand up. Lengthen your legs away from the hill and allow your hips to move forward. This will help you balance over the ski, move into and through the turn and not be so static. THink verticle thighs at the edge change.

I could not believe the video was the same person as the still photo on your profile. It sounds like you were working on a specific thing in the video but I love the image of the still photo with both legs active and balanced over the outside ski with out being over rotated or to square. The video clip had a lot more full body turning and week inside leg activity creating a slight A frame.

Tod, better late than never. Hips forward by extencing legs? Do you think that this would be easier if my boots were more tilted forwards? Now I feel like if I extend more then I loose all dynamics in my legs. I need to have them slightly bent in order to be able to have them perform properly. If I extend more I loose ski pressure.

Its pritty normal for people to boost their ego by only showing off high speed carving clips but my aim has always been to work on technique on easy flat groomers. Im all for all mountain and overall versatility. Slow and fast. I used to work in a ski school for 10y where the general opinon was that I was totally oldschool and only capable of very slow wedging with kids . In the clip I was working on balance. Pressure on outside ski and no rotational movements. Only riding the sidecut and balancing the forces. From a wider stance its easier just like standing on two feet vs one foot is easier in a mooving train.
post #79 of 82
Thread Starter 
Check this video out of me back in 2004:



I had seen nothing of the sort back then. Is there any change for better or worse when compared to the 2009 video?
post #80 of 82
TDK- not a boot expert but my thought would be no. Many times more flex in the boot just adds to one bending at the knees or hips more. Moving legs are more dynamic then static ones so not sure why you feel you would loose dynamics of your legs. It losing pressure try movement more into the new turn direction.
post #81 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todo View Post

TDK- not a boot expert but my thought would be no. Many times more flex in the boot just adds to one bending at the knees or hips more. Moving legs are more dynamic then static ones so not sure why you feel you would loose dynamics of your legs. It losing pressure try movement more into the new turn direction.
 

IMHO when you ride the sidecut of the ski with minimal input its an basicly an equation consisting of tipping, sidecut and speed progressively dynamicly changing through out the turn. At a certain speed if you tip the ski on edge lets say 5deg then it will need to be increased as you accellerate and then decreased as you deaccellerate. The projection of your body into the turn is to balance the forces. More projection calls for higher speeds or for turnier skis.
post #82 of 82
I think you can do more at any speed. You do not need to go faster to have your lengthing more in the direction of the turn. If as you say you are losing the ski then I feel either the direction of your movement is off or miss timed. I would play with both but neither has to be done faster.

Many times when good skiers slow down they become static. Just because you are not going fast does not mean your body should stop moving. The movements just need to be more acurate. It is the best way to improve ones skiing ski slow but be acurate. (but move)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › MA request - skiing on easy groomer (video inside)