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Should PSIA have a nationally standardized exam? - Page 2

post #31 of 66
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nolobolono:
I am looking at a proposal drafted in February 2002 by John Mohan of Seattle for a college-type curriculum that looks promising. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nolo... that curriculum does look somewhat promising, but in the end it may be no different than what we have now. It calls for people to 'pass' each class at the judging of the teacher. The time alotted for each class looks too short to actually allow for grading a number of participants as that requires presentations by the teacher then participation and presentations by each member of the group. I like the idea, but logistically it looks very difficult to pull off...and could just turn out to be another series of clinics people take.
at first look it doesn't seem to do much about the subjective nature of people and skiing and how that plays such a confusing role in the application of standards/evaluations.

I do, however, like the looks of a system that provides a larger base of experience and educational exposure and a process through which people would receive meaningful feedback/evaluation along the way.

In my experiences, working in a school with great education/feedback conducted by people who work with and understand standards provides the time needed to develop skills and knowledge, and going to the division for evaluation has worked well.

But many instructors do not have access to real quality educators on a regular, ongoing basis. a few interactions with divisional staff, while helpful, cannot determine that much improvement if the contact is not consistent enough. One to three events per season just won't do it.

Maybe a tighter system for accrediting training directors/trainers and educating these folks in the creation/administration of education programs would be a good way to go. Here in PNW TDs need only be Cert III..that's it...

Cert III, in my ski teaching experience, was high school graduation, the point at which my fundamentals were in place, giving me a foundation for higher education.

I really don't think problems in any division lie with the exams themselves.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 11, 2002 11:43 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Roto ]</font>
post #32 of 66

I'm looking at the forest; are you looking at the trees? The college-type curriculum is an idea whose time has come for the same reason e-learning is going gangbusters for higher ed. Student demand. Consider the demographic of instructors: rural locations, good educational background, strong self-interest in improvement. More than 90% of the membership is on the Internet. With a robust delivery platform (I"m talking streaming video), AASI/PSIA and their partners could deliver better education to their members through a "blended" approach with self-paced learning and assessment on-line and face to face clinics on snow with division people (or ski/snowboard school people).

Look at Mohan's piece with a soft focus: what is good about it?

I can see curricula for a number of specialty areas such as certified mountain guide, master teacher (already in evolution), trainer, sports school management, in addition to Cert I-III.

A rich educational system would make the exam a slam-dunk. I think examiners and candidates alike would like to achieve a high pass rate, so long as it comes with a strengthening of the outcomes, and not lowered expectations.

post #33 of 66
vail snopro,

Today, was the epic day at Vail, all year.
HealPusher and I GOT MILK, ALL DAY. That's right snopro, MILK. M-I-L-K. While you're figuring out how to do wedge turns better, I'm gettin Milk.

It wasn't that there was a lot of snow, just 6.5". But, nobody was here. Because this is my backyard, I got/we got/ MILK. Milk, baby.

Did I say we got Milk?

No way am I ever working for the man. What? Are you nutzo? Gag me with wedge turns.

Your highness.
While you're bitching, I'm getting milk - so have a nice day. And, blow it out your pie hole.

It was Milk, all day. The epic flag was up, we raised it.

post #34 of 66

Glad you enjoyed it. I was one of those poor feeble creatures down below trying to make my way through the level III exam. Fortunately, my "skier" wanted to race, so at least I got my group a chance to carve and ski FAST!

Oh - and I did get a couple of decent runs down Look Ma in preparation for manana.

May have been milk up top, but it was pure milkSHAKE at the bottom...
post #35 of 66
Maybe a PSIA member could show you how to carve a turn through all that milk as opposed to skidding every turn.

Has the guy ever had a bad day? I hope someday my life can be that perfect.

I told you there are ski schools where you can teach PMTS. Working for a ski school would mean you wouldn't have to beg to join instructors to "train".

Milk.....is he rational????

6.5 inches!!!!

Who measures half inch increments!
post #36 of 66

Well, I saw plenty positive in it, actually. I thought I said as much too. I read over the proposal several times, and it just isn't in a state clean enough to go for yet. Too much room for it to be one of those 'changes that isn't really a change.'

the college curriculum idea IS good (you should see Zew Zealand's, of course, that is run through actual colleges with Gov't support)

oh, I'm too tired to go on about it. I guess I see the idea developing here already and am simply tired of the whole 'scrap it and start over' attitude. I'm into transendence AND inclusion, as well as constructive teamwork(as opposed to adversarialism. Sometimes when people present their ideas as if they will be rebuked (without checking first) it comes across as...self absorbed... see I told you I was too tired for this..I should probably just delete all this tripe. I don't really know what I am posting...
post #37 of 66
What ever happened to the Examiners College that was held in conjunction with the National Academy? It seems this would be one avenue to explore when discussing a National standard.
post #38 of 66

Sorry you're tired.

I got the impression you didn't think Mohan got the details right. I tend to agree with you, but I do like the vision.

You know what they say, give them a vision and let them work out the details. Then they'll start to feel like it was their idea.

Maybe we need to approach cert and ed as software companies approach their product: constantly in development with periodic releases.

Just a thought.
post #39 of 66
Thread Starter 
VSG- Glad you had a good day! That bodes well for your performance tomorrow. Best of luck!!!

SCSA- (laughing and shaking my head)
6.5"? Epic? No crowds? Epic? Wow! I'm so impressed! But, hey- what ever turns your crank! :
You talk about Vail Mtn being your "backyard". Well- it's my office! I get paid to ski it. At least 130 days per season. Yes, I spend some time on Ch 15, and I gladly spend time with skiers who are developing, but I'm sure I've hit at least a few decent days. So- when ever you are ready to develop, and are looking for a lesson, I'll still be here. But maybe we should let you go out and try to keep up with VSG? Oh- I forgot, she's only doing wedge turns... Well, you can still try to keep up!

Best of luck to all the cert candidates at Vail!
post #40 of 66

SCSA does not like being compared to girls.


I should be envious of you? That is funny.
post #41 of 66
vail snopro,

Welcome to the wonderful world of SCSA! You should know that SCSA would never take a lesson from a GANG MEMBER.

There are very few that could get hired on as a Ski Pro at any ski area, let alone a big time ski resort in the Rockies with only THREE YEARS OF EXPERIANCE!
: Although, we had one here in Aspen who came to us from Aussieland that we hired with only two years of skiing under his belt. He was truly a gifted skier! I highly doubt that SCSA could match up to this guy on skis in any way.

So don't get toooooo upset with SCSA, vail snopro. He's harmless. But he does piss us off sometimes with the gang thang. ----------------Wigs :

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 12, 2002 08:07 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Wigs ]</font>
post #42 of 66
Wigs- Unfortuneately if you can walk and.....you can get hired at Eldora. That is the difference between our place and well....a destination resort such as yours.

I would like to see SCSA face a busload as they step off from anywhere out on the Great Plains and teach sans wedge to an overweight, wheezing, hog farmer's wife. The glamour erodes quickly.

I should not have said or inferred he could get hired anywhere. Would Eldora hire the guy? You bet. Does that mean all our folks are useless, nope.

Some certainly are.

Would SCSA be useless? No, he has a lot of talent, skill, and boundless enthusiasm. I'd just like the guy to walk in an instructors shoes prior to being judgemental.
post #43 of 66
Hey Rusty, how's Abe doing? (He can walk) and worked at Eldora this winter. He FREEHEELS a lot, but I think he taught snowboarding.
post #44 of 66
We just closed. I did meet the guy and he seemed great. Why did he pick Eldora? Was he going to CU?
post #45 of 66
He lives in boulder I guess, not going to school though. It was closesst and he missed teaching.
post #46 of 66

Your highness is wrong ------ this time.

Oh man, I'd love to rip it with y'all. Dang, too bad the year is over...But, I'll take you up on your offer next year, that is if you're still offering - I better start working on my skills!

You ever heard of Craig Hubbel? How about Andres Boezel (sp?).

Nah, I've had some bad days - just can't seem to remember any.

post #47 of 66
Rusty Guy,

I would like to see SCSA face a busload as they step off from anywhere out on the Great Plains and teach sans wedge to an overweight, wheezing, hog farmer's wife. The glamour erodes quickly.<<

THERE ARE SUCH PEOPLE?????????????????????????

vail snopro,

Boy, lay into him good! ( SCSA ) I did that a few months back, but he just keeps hanging in there like this cold I've had this season. And I won't be givin' him much thought either while I'm exercising large trout on the Green River in a week! [img]smile.gif[/img]----Wigs : :
post #48 of 66
Oh you gang members are all so funny.

Now, vsp.
Are you a gang member, or a gang leader? I get the feeling you're a gang leader, which means insulting you will be much more difficult as you've no doubt been insulted all your life, thus creating the desire to be a leader.

"Hey. You can't insult me now, I'm a dang gang leader - see my pin".

Do gang leaders get special suits? Barnes has one, he's a gang leader - even wrote a book. Are you writing a book too? Maybe you should. I mean, there are still some niches to fill.

Here are a few ideas I have, fully baked, per Your Highness's order. I'll give 'em to you because you're so nice to me.

"The Inventors of Wedge Turns".
I don't know if you know this, but wedge turns were invented by 3 black fellows who traveled in the circus - it was the only way they could make it down the hill and juggle at the same time.

The book tells the story of this miraculous discovery - by their manager. Then, it goes on to tell the seedy side of wedge turns. How their manager, recognizing how big wedge turns were going to be, negotiated the sale of the discovery from these 3, nice gentleman. He traded them a turtleneck for their discovery and proffered this -"Them hills will be filled with nothing but white folk".

Their manager then goes on to form what was to be the beginning of the gang - "The Eskimo Ski Club".

It should make for fascinating reading.

"Gang Life. Triumph of being Unemployed".
This one tells the story of four unemployed actors - Ethan Greatlooking, Heather Ego, Penelope Body, Sean Fantastic, and their meteoric rise to fame in the gang.

It starts off with their life on the left coast, hanging around at Starbucks.

“This sucks. I thought getting into the movies was going to be a lot easier”.

“I know. Let’s all go be ski instructors. None of us know how to ski, but I hear that doesn’t matter anyway. We’ll go out to Colorado and boom! We’ll get jobs as ski instructors.

“Since we’re all so neat, we’ll meet all kinds of rich and famous people. I’m sure we’ll meet some movie producers”.

Now this book is a little racy – there’s some sex in it.
Did I say Sex?
That’s right. Sex baby!

It details how the four of them sleep their way to the top – literally. We actually detail Sean, snoring in wedge turn class,t then getting an A.

And of course there’s Penelope, off to side (or on the side), with the top examiners.

They’ll be some pictures.

We could even do a calendar.

I’m telling ya.

Cheers vsp,
post #49 of 66
Hey, SCSA,

Although your comments often bring a grin to my face, my analysis of those comments is they are stated out of sheer envy, since you're stuck down in that rat race of Denver, and I live up here in God's Country.

Now, I'm sure you won't mind if ignore you!
post #50 of 66
>>Are you a gang member, or a gang leader? I get the feeling you're a gang leader, which means insulting you will be much more difficult as you've no doubt been insulted all your life, thus creating the desire to be a leader.<<

Good grief, you need to chill with this kind of stuff!

What gives? Recently you were saying you would like to tag along in a PSIA clinic - but now you are back to insulting our entire livelihood? Not cool man!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 13, 2002 10:18 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Todd M. ]</font>
post #51 of 66
Thread Starter 
WOW! Hey everybody!

SCSA has already elevated me to the ranks of royalty! And I'm the new guy on this site. Has everybody been afforded such respect? When I taught in Switzerland, I was referred to as Doctor, or Professor (as is common), but never did I dream of becoming royalty! I better call my mother and let her know I've finally made the big leagues!

Ya, SCSA, I'll be around. But will I be able to fit you in to my busy schedule? I'm not sure. I have clients who book me on all the POW POW ( sorry- , MILK, did I say MILK?) days so we can rip while you are standing in a 45 minute lift line at CH 5.... And then they'll tip me nicely for the experience...

And yes, I do know Andre'-. A real class act! I'd be suprised to find he hangs out with you... Maybe you hang around him, hoping some class will rub off?

The point is moot. You can't even find enough snow to ski off the mountain at the end of the day. And after Sunday, it won't matter at all. I promise not to think of you while I'm lying on a beach in St.Thomas....

By the way- did you hear that VSG passed her level 3? She must make a mean wedge turn! Hmmm- . I wonder if such an awesome skier as you could even get close to that achievement?

Just thought you might be interested... :
post #52 of 66
Oh c'mon Todd, it's all just satire.
Can't anyone poke some fun?

The rat race? Yeah, but it's still the best rat race around.

God's country? Sweetheart, all I can tell you is that I just paid my Eagle County property taxes. God wouldn't charge that much!

post #53 of 66
Oh, shoot - sorry. I made the mistake of seeing the comments through the lens of history and context.
post #54 of 66
I strongly feel that PSIA should do away with exams altogether. Especially after seeing someone pass his level 3 very recently who no one thought would, or should pass.

I prefer the cumulative assesment method, like the Eastern Master Teacher qualification. You work your way through a number of steps, clinics etc, being assessed in each one as having understood and "got" it. In the American Skiing Company's Perfect Turn certification system, this is what they do. It's more rigorous, but less dependant on doing well in a very narrow situation and time frame. I think it would ensure stronger quality standards, for one thing.
post #55 of 66
Todd M.-That's always his out....oops, canchatakeajoke?

At least he's taken a break from using the word "thang"

I still don't get the whole ethnic thread involving the wedge. That made a lot of sense.

Milk I tell ya, M-I-L-K, milk!
post #56 of 66
Thread Starter 
I appreciate the many hours of effort you obviously put into your suggestions. But I do have a question? Which was fully baked? Your story lines or your brain? Since the story lines seem only half baked, I'll have to assume it is the latter. I hope you weren't operating heavy machinery (like a TV remote) too soon after sending your post.

I find your reference to uniforms quite interesting. Are you aware that your idol,HH, once wore the most prestigious uniform of the PSIA? And traveled internationally to represent the "gang" you claim to despise?
And didn't he write a book, make videos, etc?

Maybe we are living in a (direct-to)parallel world.

For your information- yes, I do wear the same "gang" uniform as Bob. So do approximately 100 others in this division. And if it's so horrible, why are there so many talented, intelligent ski teachers trying so hard to get one of their own? With hard work, hopefully one day all of them will wear that uniform with pride and respect. Not with ego and disdain.
Therefore, I don't believe we have anything that will fit you. You'll have to go buy something off the rack...

Tomorrow is the last day of the season. I hope you've had a good one!

post #57 of 66
vsp is kinda clever.

Now vsp. Let's keep it friendly because you gotta remember. I'm way out numbered here.

Between all the gang members and leaders, Your Highness and her minions - it just ain't fair!

I may have to call in for reinforcements - but not yet. Right now, I think I'm doing ok on my own............Now that I think about it, "I'm better than 97% of the people at holding my own".

Now, you know the rules of engagement, right?

1) First and foremost, it's politically correct here to disagree with everything I say.

2) Then, there's the 97%, dare I say, "thang". You must reference 97% in at least one post a week. We can't let it die.

3) Finally, points are given for creativity.
As an example, your last post started off well, I really liked the "baked" reference (I'll never tell), but it kinda lost steam at the end. Try to do a better job of insulting me. After all, you owe it to yourself.

Okay, I'll leave you alone now. After all, there's wedge turns to teach!


And yes, back to the topic. Thanks for letting me derail it.

Cheers to all,

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 14, 2002 02:42 PM: Message edited 2 times, by SCSA ]</font>
post #58 of 66
SCSA, Yah said:
>>>1) First and foremost, it's politically incorrect to agree with anything I say.
3) Finally, points are given for creativity.
As an example, your last post started off well, I really liked the "baked" reference (I'll never tell), but it kinda lost steam at the end. Try to do a better job of insulting me. After all, you owe it to yourself.<<<<

Since you look right to see Gloria Stienam wouldn't number 1 be anyone who does not agree with me is politically incorrect?? You use conservative buzz words often, I am begining to wonder!
Points for creativity? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 14, 2002 12:10 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Pierre eh! ]</font>
post #59 of 66

Yah mon! Is #1 better now?

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
post #60 of 66
Thread Starter 
Interesting that you find the fictional part of my post funny, and the truthful part distasteful. Can it be that you live in a fictional place, with fictional friends, with fictional knowledge, and fictional skiing ability?

But when the truth rears it's ugly head, you go running for cover, or cry foul!

Don't dish it if you can't take it! That, or get back on the meds...

We are all calmly sitting in the proverbial hot tub of knowledge, trying to soak some in, while you are at the edge, splashing all over the place.

You want people to take you or your thoughts seriously? Then present your ideas and concern in a mature, logical fashion. But accept that each of us has the right to our own opinion, just as you have the right to yours, which we support. That is what this site is about- sharing, comparing, and at times, disagreeing with each other.

Leave the ego crap on the desk, not on the computer. Nobody is impressed, and quite frankly, nobody gives a damn how cool or outrageous you are.
I know there are better, more knowledgable skiers and teachers out there than I. I respect them, and hope to learn from them. But there are also less knowledgable out there as well, and I hope that I may help them if they ask.

So, whats it going to be? Will you join this society as a respectful individual, working toward a greater understanding? Or will you always be the sullen "little boy who sits on the edge of the playground and throws rocks at the other children"?

Your choice!

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