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THE 500th THREAD! - Page 3

post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post




Forgive me if I don't believe you Cirque.

When Heluvaskier posted his video upon my request as an example of "Attack" not one person commented on it because ....?

Surely not because that was learned by using PMTS!?

Yet when a PSIA trained guy is presented as the example of attack, there is a rush to agree and a rush to defend that notion.

Having the two videos of Heluvaskier and Nick available presents an excellent opportunity compare the results from two schools of training.  

I don't think it'll happen though.....

 

OK.  I don't want this thread to derail, but I'll give you the quick answer. That will be the last sentence in this post. I read, but didn't post in the "attack thread" and I can see the issue from both sides. 

There was a very nice supervisor of mine, an Austrian guy who was a "pretty skier" when I knew him. One year he decided to join the local (fun) race circuit and he mopped the floor with the exception of one semi-pro (then) who also was in the weekly series.  Everybody was shocked.  When asked he admitted, "I don't know what I'm doing, I just ski around the poles." So you can watch something like Klammer's famous downhill run or watch Ingi ski.  They both won, Ingi usually with great skiing, Klammer with the best "hang on" technique I have ever seen.  No one can convince me both didn't attack.

Posting about Heluava's skiing is a trap right now.  Former moderator Heluva trashes TTS systems (all be it somewhat subtly) at another site he posts at. I too have skied with Heluva.  It is very obvious SOME of his skiing has greatly improved with his study of PMTS, and some hasn't.  Nice attack in the bumps on his part, Klammer style. 

So there you go Big E.  Now someone has commented on Heluva's skiing for you.  And someone has now talked about it, which you didn't think would happen.  This place no longer wants the PMTS-PSIA-EPIC discussion to erupt into warfare. So respond if you wish, but these are my last words on the topic.

Now here is your answer to what can constitute an "attack:". There are many times the guy in the race course who looks like he's doing the least and is the smoothest wins the race. One can attack and have the discipline to skillfully control his movements.
post #62 of 74
I agree with Louie's comments, which also segue nicely with what RicB's said in the Errors thread:

Quote:
 
Now to the issue of errors and this thread and the sports diamond. I like to recognize both sides of each corner, and not just in their positive versus negative impact but also from a hard versus soft perspective. Take will for example. We may tend to think of it more in the realm of attack or letting it place us in an adversarial mind set with the mountain. Or it may be that we find our will being primarily used to "Amp up" our energy or technique causing us to get tense and tired. But consider that will may also mean we need to discipline ourselves to realax and let things happen versus forcing them to happen. To let go of our reactive tension and embrace the down the hill energy we feel. It takes discipline and will power to ignore our built in nag that wants to exploit our fears or wants to "conquer the mountain". It takes just as much will to experience the soft side of our power, our soft technique and our supple elastic movements. It might take more will power for this.

So we need to be able to work both sides of every corner, the yin as well as the yang, the tail of the coin as well the head. Life tends to train us in the yang side, the hard side, but we need the balance that comes from willfully spending time letting go, softening, and relaxing. Bring this into skiing and we may find the soft underside side of each corner in the diamond, a softer purpose, a softer power, a softer touch and yes through practice, a softer will as well.

The biggest error we make is only seeing one side of each of the four compass points. This may be a conscious choice to maintain this error because it is so familiar and reliable. 
post #63 of 74
What I miss most is the questioning of common assumptions and approaches.  The PMTS debates served this purpose well.  One difficulty was the bashing that frequently replaced the questioning (from both sides).  Another was the posturing and counter bashing displayed by some upon having their basic beliefs questioned (from both sides as well).  Tough to avoid those as they tend to feed upon each other.  I think, however, that these missing discussions provided more insight for me than just about any of the discussions I see now.
post #64 of 74
What I like is the variety of opinion, the willingness of some posters to get into details and get to right down to the fundamentals.

Epic is a place where folks can discuss skiing with someone who wants to talk skiing.

I like the fact than anyone can post their opinion.  I realize that some folks may get upset that the opinion of a well-written, individual with no credentials, who probably can't ski half as well as 97% of the instructors gets equal placement in discussions, but I like it. I understand, however, the problem of someone who gives good advice and gets his good advice torn up by some idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about and the advice goes unheeded despite much effort and frustration (the world is political and I'm an engineer).  The ask a boot fitter form seems to be working all right (when folks bother to look at what forum the thread is in), so  ask the ski-pro form should fix that problem

I can see that nobody with an interest in making money in ski instruction will want to get their skiing torn apart on the web, but that's the nature of the world.  If you're out there hawking your stuff, you've got to show it off. .

I like the ski reviews.  It's great to be able to get actual comparisons between different skis from someone who's style of skiing you have some idea of and to be able to ask clarifying follow-up questions.

I like the technique forms as a source of ideas for things to try out on the hill.

I like the resource for soliciting answers to basically any question I might have.

I even like the religious discussions we used to get once in a while. Fascinating.

I didn't like the fights here.  I like watching an accident scene or a physical confrontation, but bickering isn't fun to listen to or to read.  The fights on some other web sites are fun to watch as there is a bit of a comedic attempt to go over the top which has some entertainment value and some of the comedians there are very good at it (even if a bit too vulgar at times).
post #65 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

I agree with Louie's comments, which also segue nicely with what RicB's said in the Errors thread:

 

Quote:
 
Now to the issue of errors and this thread and the sports diamond. I like to recognize both sides of each corner, and not just in their positive versus negative impact but also from a hard versus soft perspective. Take will for example. We may tend to think of it more in the realm of attack or letting it place us in an adversarial mind set with the mountain. Or it may be that we find our will being primarily used to "Amp up" our energy or technique causing us to get tense and tired. But consider that will may also mean we need to discipline ourselves to realax and let things happen versus forcing them to happen. To let go of our reactive tension and embrace the down the hill energy we feel. It takes discipline and will power to ignore our built in nag that wants to exploit our fears or wants to "conquer the mountain". It takes just as much will to experience the soft side of our power, our soft technique and our supple elastic movements. It might take more will power for this.

So we need to be able to work both sides of every corner, the yin as well as the yang, the tail of the coin as well the head. Life tends to train us in the yang side, the hard side, but we need the balance that comes from willfully spending time letting go, softening, and relaxing. Bring this into skiing and we may find the soft underside side of each corner in the diamond, a softer purpose, a softer power, a softer touch and yes through practice, a softer will as well.

The biggest error we make is only seeing one side of each of the four compass points. This may be a conscious choice to maintain this error because it is so familiar and reliable. 


 




Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

What I miss most is the questioning of common assumptions and approaches.  The PMTS debates served this purpose well.  One difficulty was the bashing that frequently replaced the questioning (from both sides).  Another was the posturing and counter bashing displayed by some upon having their basic beliefs questioned (from both sides as well).  Tough to avoid those as they tend to feed upon each other.  I think, however, that these missing discussions provided more insight for me than just about any of the discussions I see now.

I agree SI...I would have thought many people here would. 

To me this board is an instructor to instructor forum.  It is good for the development of pros to question and understand where their beleifs come from.  Most instructors on this board lack that base understanding, and instead only regurgitate things they have been told...but do not really understand.  Obvioulsy thou, no one likes to realise that they know far less then they thought, especially publicly on the www.  So the defence, fights etc  start...even when one side is glaringly wrong.

To save face the wrong party often resorts to the "oh you missed my defintion of the word" approach.  Which has gotten really old. 

The new save facing measure is shown above by nolo.  This is great, as it allows anyone and everyone to have an opionion and join the discussion.  Is phsycology important in skiing?  Yes.  It is in most things we do in life.  But unless someone asks a specific question about it...such as "how do I overcome the fear of steeps" discussing it ...or at least discussing it the way it is done on this board....is pointless (I will start a valuable physcology thread on this board so others can see how a valuable sports physc thread should look).  There is no way anyone can possibly know for sure what someone is thinking or not thinking by watching a video of them skiing on youtube....unless of course they themselves chime and tell us.  Sure we can guess...and some guesses are better then others....but ultimaltey the only thing we can see is the skiing....hence the only thing we can discuss intelligently is the ski technique.



Ultimaltey thou the problem as I see it is:
 
This board, rightly or wrongly is instructor to instructor but the Epicski ownership and hierarchy desperatley wants it to a place where the general public can come to learn and imrpove their skiing.  This was afterall the intial goal of Epicski.  This was then backed up with "real world" ski clinics.  Clearly the real world ski camps have been successful...the online version much less so.

I think the answer is to understand what the TA forums are....understand they are not nessarily what the owners intended.....understand that that while the owners may have failed in one aspect, they were hugley successful in another....understand that you cannot force people to visit and particpate in a forum they have no interst it....understand that the current direction of Epic at least for the TA forums has created some benefits...but this has happened at enourmus cost.  Do the benefits outweight the costs?

Well I am sure the "usuals" will jump in and say "absolutley"....they were the ones that drove the changes afterall.........BUT the real answer comes from the deafening silence that once was an very active board.
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

There is no way anyone can possibly know for sure what someone is thinking or not thinking by watching a video of them skiing on youtube....unless of course they themselves chime and tell us.  Sure we can guess...and some guesses are better then others....but ultimaltey the only thing we can see is the skiing....hence the only thing we can discuss intelligently is the ski technique.
While this is true, there is one thing that happens here virtually every time that is deeply disturbing to me: the discussion isn't about the technique, but about the ultimate skill of a given person. A recent analysis of Weems is an example of this. Any analysis of one of Rogan's demonstrations is another. These guys are so good that they can very accurately emulate anyone. As a result, one could watch a video of one of the runs and make completely wrong assumptions about their skills. I have seen it done here on EpicSki frequently, and find it distasteful and foolish and frankly don't understand why people are so eager to comment on the ultimate skill level of people they have never met based on incredibly limited information available on a video... or two... or ten. Talk about the technique and leave the personal judgments unsaid.

It happens so frequently here that I think we should come up with a term for it so we can all point it out when it happens.
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post

Posting about Heluava's skiing is a trap right now.  Former moderator Heluva trashes TTS systems (all be it somewhat subtly) at another site he posts at. I too have skied with Heluva.  It is very obvious SOME of his skiing has greatly improved with his study of PMTS, and some hasn't.  Nice attack in the bumps on his part, Klammer style. 

So there you go Big E.  Now someone has commented on Heluva's skiing for you.  And someone has now talked about it, which you didn't think would happen.  This place no longer wants the PMTS-PSIA-EPIC discussion to erupt into warfare. So respond if you wish, but these are my last words on the topic.

Now here is your answer to what can constitute an "attack:". There are many times the guy in the race course who looks like he's doing the least and is the smoothest wins the race. One can attack and have the discipline to skillfully control his movements.
Well said, UL. Thanks for saying what I've been trying to communicate... on both points!
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

To me this board is an instructor to instructor forum.  It is good for the development of pros to question and understand where their beleifs come from.  Most instructors on this board lack that base understanding, and instead only regurgitate things they have been told...but do not really understand.


This board, rightly or wrongly is instructor to instructor but the Epicski ownership and hierarchy desperatley wants it to a place where the general public can come to learn and imrpove their skiing.  This was afterall the intial goal of Epicski.  This was then backed up with "real world" ski clinics. 

I agree with the rest of your post that I didn't quote above.  One correction (if I'm right of course) is that the site (originally) was student to coach with internet and on the hill instruction.  I suspect larger scale clinics followed.

I agree that most of the discussion here is like you described above. Let's be sure to keep the professional coaches in the mix.  They provide plenty of valuable information here,  It gets slightly worse when the general public jumps in (with a few exceptions of course)

Here is what I have noticed first hand though.  I have probably skied with over 100 people from this site, the vast majority being recreational (some- very dedicated and skilled) skiers.  Almost none post on technical forums, but they read them, and learn from them.  They are the silent majority.  The recreational skiers are watching, and learning, they just don't jump in.  Note the numbers of active users vs guests. At this moment on a Sunday morning before 8 AM it's 30 members and 501 guests.  The recreational skiers are watching, and they deserve accurate information.  The problem is they (generally with ample but limited knowledge) have to decide who to listen to.  Some of the true pros are obvious, the problem here for the general public is who to listen to from the rest of the pack.
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post


With that in mind, I'd like to see video of all you instructors showing us your best skiing in various conditions and terrain so that we the general public can relate your prowess to your skiing knowledge and terminology. Please include steep, icy moguls and wind blown slab.

 

Why stop with instructors, why not everyone who posts in this forum? It's actually quite easy to know who the instructors are, they all are happy to say so. It's much more difficult to determine who among the anonymous posters is an actual authority on any given topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post






  Almost none post on technical forums, but they read them, and learn from them.  They are the silent majority.  The recreational skiers are watching, and learning, they just don't jump in.  Note the numbers of active users vs guests. At this moment on a Sunday morning before 8 AM it's 30 members and 501 guests.  The recreational skiers are watching, and they deserve accurate information.  The problem is they (generally with ample but limited knowledge) have to decide who to listen to.  Some of the true pros are obvious, the problem here for the general public is who to listen to from the rest of the pack.
What UL said. Much more difficult to know who to listen to.
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post

The recreational skiers are watching, and they deserve accurate information.  The problem is they (generally with ample but limited knowledge) have to decide who to listen to.  Some of the true pros are obvious, the problem here for the general public is who to listen to from the rest of the pack.
Totally agree, UL! BTW, even those who ski very well don't necessarily know what it is that they are doing so that they do ski well! They know what they think and feel and intend and all that, but what they say about what they are doing may be entirely inaccurate as a result of limited experience, poor input from others, well-intentioned but inaccurate interpretations, and so on.

I have been so struck by the comments I've heard from people describing their skiing while I'm enjoying a ski day with them. Most will not ask for input but will rather tell me all about their skiing... and be entirely inaccurate about it. The most obvious are those who are "carving" and leaving tracks that are smeared, but there are many, many other examples.

In my own skiing, there is a small set of people who have ready access to my thinking process and many others who I will consider... with my filters up. 

Just because someone communicates well and/or forcefully anonymously on an Internet web site doesn't mean that they are worth listening to...


Internet Dog
post #71 of 74
Bill, I think your post contradicts itself somewhat, but it would be fair for everyone to put up video of themselves. It may be of more value to the readers as they can relate words in a post to the experience level of the person posting.

But just because the label of Instructor happens to be along side your user name, doesn't mean they can ski worth crap or well enough to break down ski movements or do MA. There's alot of readers here that need to know that. I've seen many instructors all around the country that don't do a very good job of getting themselves down a hill let alone try and teach someone else how to. That said, there are many very good instructors who are great on the hill but as people have said here, aren't good at writing down what they see or explaining what they mean. I've also know great skiers that couldn't be instructors because they lacked people skills and lack of communication skills. Video would help.

I still say quality member instructors with the ability to relate their teachings in a KISS manner would go a long ways for the success of this forum a whole lot more than a handful of know it alls using big words trying to outdo the next person in an all out attempt to show superior knowledge in defense of their teaching methods. And their personal agendas.

My only personal agenda here is insuring the success of these important forums.
post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

I still say quality member instructors with the ability to relate their teachings in a KISS manner would go a long ways for the success of this forum a whole lot more than a handful of know it alls using big words trying to outdo the next person in an all out attempt to show superior knowledge in defense of their teaching methods. And their personal agendas.
Nicely said, Lars... 
post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

........................... but it would be fair for everyone to put up video of themselves. It may be of more value to the readers as they can relate words in a post to the experience level of the person posting.

But just because the label of Instructor happens to be along side your user name, doesn't mean they can ski worth crap or well enough to break down ski movements or do MA.

My only personal agenda here is insuring the success of these important forums.
We are in agreement on what I quoted above.
post #74 of 74
I'm sure glad I didn't kill this w/ my "dark side" explanation.

I totally agree w/ much said, including Uncle Louies comment about many watchers out there, hopefully finding the best information they can.
I've also met quite a few of both the posters and watchers. I've enjoyed skiing w/ a large group from epic, and hopefully they have enjoyed skiing w/ me.

Would video help.
First off, it's not always the best skiers who make the best teachers. That said, skiing well shows a mastery that can show up in the teaching as well.

I've posted my skiing here in the past, multiple times, but do people know where to look is they think, "this Holiday has some good things to say, but can he actually turn R and L?" can they track it down? And if they do, what do they see? Do I have to defend my skiing on KT's west face, and say, it's long, it's steep, their was a crust, or can it just stand on it's own, and they say, that looks easy...? video isn't always the answer in my book. I minimize video of students since it can be discouraging as well. But, maybe an area where instructor/regular participant past video is readily available if someone wants to see it.

Cheers,
Holiday

PS off to the squaw running of "edge of never" w/ my daughter and an epic member/ past student.
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