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The Perfect Turn - Brainstorm session 1

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
The Perfect Turn:

As with anything in skiing, verbally translating what are dynamic balancing movements can be an exercise that can be fun, complex, and sometimes even frustrating.

If there is such a thing as a perfect turn then this would be a natural goal for many skiers to aspire to. With no goal in mind how is ski instruction to reach it?

But, before we begin the group Brainstorm session the first verbal term that needs expressed is what is Perfect?

Here is Bob Barnes Perfect Turn:
http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...=001198#000013

Of course there are many types of turns and in this thread I would like to start a discusion on what different types of high end turns are there. I will simply list what I have observed and if any out there know real names to these turns then please chime in so I can learn.

These are the ways I have seen skiers going down blacks. Since they are on an advanced slope then you would hope that as you gaze on that black slope you are watching people demonstrate Perfect Turns. Since there is quite a variety of these turns, some may be more Perfect than others.

For instance:

*******The Bunny Rabbit Hopping turn.********
(and please, if anyone knows the real accepted names for me please let me know)

In this turn, the black slope practitioner is not carving during their turn, in fact they are often not even on the ground in their whole turn. You can watch them lower themselves then Pop Up to make themselves have no weight on the skis as the twist/pivot them around to the new direction. This style of sking does not seem as common as it once was. The path this turn makes down the hill is not a smoothly connected series of S turns, but it's a bunch of disconnected Z's. Though a hop turn still looks to me to be a useful tool for certain situations, it does not properly utilize a sidecut. In fact it doesn't need a sidecut. This turn can be done on 2 by 4's. Since it is not a method optimized to use todays best ski design its probably not a turn style to be aspried to for one looking to be proficient in the elusive Perfect Turn.

******* the webbler wobbler racer wanna be ******
In this style of turn you have a person with their legs about shoulder length + 6 inches apart. They are usually in some sort of partial tuck and looking pretty cool. They do turns by tipping both legs at the same time and waddle down the hill like this. These turns do not look particullarly graceful, they make serpent tracks down the slopes and you get the impression that speed control by controlling the shape of the turn is not an issue. When they do turn, there is not much body angulation and since there is not, they aren't really carving.

********* The Stein Turn **************

In this turn, perfect for crusing and relaxing turns, (the Euro Reverse Shoulder Method?) almost no energy is expended. The knees are barely bent, the amount of turning is limited to what this relaxed approach will allow. There is just a slight shoulder drop and hip change that makes the feet edge one way or another. This turn is closer that that definition of the perfect turn if the goal is effecient sking but this type of turn won't work when the terrian isn't groomed nice or in Moguls or in trees where shorter radius turns are allowed. A friend of mind skis this way and it is really elegant to watch. He goes real fast and expends no energy. This also must be a style that dates from pre-shape ski days as his first pair of shape skis was this fall even though he has skied for 30 years. But, this friend also can go flying with that very upright stance if the terrain doesn't cooperate. Oh, did I mention, in this stance you could tie a rope around the heels and tighten it, as the legs are always firmly stuck together. Many may feel this is the best candidate for a Perfect Turn as it's very efficent and elegant. But it does not match Bob's Perfect Turn so it's outta here!

***********************************************

Please continue this and classify as many turn times as you see on blacks or embellish the above.

Make sure your list does not Include the Perfect Turn that Bob Describes. By eliminating from the list of potential perfect turn canidates, imperfect turns, we will begin to whittle the definition down to the ideal/perfect turn that should at least be mastered as part of a quiver of tools.

Ok, - before I post this to the masses, I might as well put in one more:

*******The "See, I can ski blacks now!" Wedge Turn *******
Remember-the purpose of this excersise is to try to classify the actual turn styles of all turns but the perfect turn that we see people doing down blacks. In this common black turn we see people wearing their knees out doing heavy heavy wedge plowing (a great skill very usefull for lift lines). We see this extended and held to an advanced level of ski terrain in all it's glory. At any moment, the skier doing this turn can turn into instant entertainment. It's more fun to watch in Indiana then out west where this is more dangerous. In Indiana when these people do this, they fall and slide about 4 to 10 stories then the little toy black slope ends and no harm is done. But, they can say they did the "expert run". But, alas, since this is neither elegant, nor efficient we should drop it for consideration for the perfect turn.

So have fun - add more types, expound on these. Once we get to the true Perfect Turn as Bob Describes I will break out variations that all fit within Bob's definition to see if within Bob's broad definition are there yet turns within turns of perfection to meditate on.
post #2 of 25
Hmmm... I'm trying, but I can't remember seeing any of these on blacks this past weekend. I'm not sure I really know what they are. But, in an effort to participate in the conversation to see where it gets us...

I tend to see two types of turns that I think are not the "Perfect Turn":

*Skidded Parallel*

Skis change directions and mostly skid downhill while also moving in the direction of the tips. Skis are turned by a strong, progressive rotation of the legs or by a rapid rotation at initiation.

*Pop Turn*

Using the loaded ski from the bottom of the previous turn, use the rebound to unweight slightly, and use the unweighting to redirect the skis into a new turn. Once weight is reset on the skis, carve and/or skid through the end of the turn, set the edges, and do it, again.

Often, this "pop" initiation results in the new inside ski being lifted and/or coming completely off the snow.
post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 
Here is another one:

********* The start / stopper turn ***********

In this turn perhaps the practitioner is on a black for the first time and is uncomfortable with the steepness and the build up of speed.

What you see is the person doing one turn and stop. Then one turn and stop the other way. Ultimately they make it down the hill. I suppose this may be the closest to the elusive "Perfect Turn" because here we have a turn that and mostly fit withing Bob's Perfect Turn definition. But perhaps the release move from turn to turn is still to scary at this steepness. But, since at best this is only 1/2 a perfect turn, it too is adios!
post #4 of 25
John

I'm not sure I can see where you're wanting to go with this. Every single turn is different and uses blends of various techniques, every skier can have different aspirations, etc etc. What works in the morning may not after lunch.

The whole question of what comprises skillful skiing was well covered by John Shedden (book of the same name 1982). It would be a mistake to mistake technical competence for skillful skiing. One is a small part of the other. Trying to isolate a particular turn may be missing the point.

your ealier enquiry into how one approaches making turns and the degree to which rotation is admitted was interesting. In your pursuit of perfection, the skier's Holy Grail, you will pass by the small details on which the whole depends such as all the very useful things to do with the wedge -it is not just for lift lines and it does not require 100% rotational technique, in fact it can be done with none.

You may be barking with the rest of us, but for my money its up the wrong tree.
post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Hmmm - Pop turn actually could fit in the umbrella of Bob's Perfect turn in some cases as some skis are so hot, they will throw you up. As you note you could complete a "Pop" turn yet carve fine. Many racers are often airborne just a tad in their transistion.

If I might fine tune what your saying:

If you do what you are calling a Pop turn based on the ski's rebound, you could either not twist/pivot your skis and simply tip and be ready for the landing to continue your turn and be carving right away, or you could pivit in mid air for a rather abrupt direction change /skid similar to what I called a Hop turn.

Is that a correct clarification of the two ways, an ok way and a bad way to deal with a few inches of airborne rebound in the transition that an agreesive skier on modern skis may find themselves in.

I ask this because every now and then I find myself airborne (more on my 6 stars than my heads which are almost never airborne). But I tip my new inside ski while airborne and then continue carving the next turn the moment I land. I don't pivot. Even when not airborne I experience almost weightlessness or float at this transition point in agressive skiing. I could prevent this by extending my legs of course, but then my shoulders and head would be raising up and down and in my concept of a good turn the upper body and extra movements (Bob calls some of these negative movements) are not done.
post #6 of 25
I agree with daslider I can not see where you are going with this.

1. There is the prefect carved turn as demonstrated on a groomed blue run.

and then

2. There is a multitude of variations of that perfect carved turn used to negotiate different terrain other than a groomed blue run.

The perfect carved turn is not used in this black terrain you are talking about, in this terrain you need to modify the perfect carved turn to suit the changed conditions.

If you want to dissect the perfect carved turn it needs to be applied to a groomed blue run.

Disscussing turns in black terrain is a different game altogether.
post #7 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by daslider:
John

You may be barking with the rest of us, but for my money its up the wrong tree.
Well see. Maybe it's becuause I'm new to the sport, but I bet the public out there that aspires to learn to ski would like a goal to reach. A complete Post Modern no right or wrong all things are acceptable or useful view of skiing may be partially true. The hop turn for instance can be very appropriate in certain situations. But you don't mix Hop with Bob's perfect turn as he described it. And just because Bob's Perfect turn is called Perfect that doesn't mean its the only turn at all.

Where I'm going with this by eliminating turn types that are not compatible with Bob's Definition of Perfect Turn is get a clearer idea of what Bob's idea of a Perfect Turn is. One reply here mentioned Pop turn as not a Perfect Turn in Bob's definition. I asked why not as many people will sometimes be airborne at transition. What is done at that point either breaks Bob's Perfect turn parameters or not. When I read the next reply on my comment on Pop turn I may see reasons why some might thing a Pop turn is never part of a Perfect Turn.

Later, in a different thread, I will define what I consider a perfect turn and how broad a definition it covers of types of turns and where it contrasts just slightly with Bob's definition. My perfect turn and Bob's perfect turn are just then one end goal. I will also, after reviewing this thread better define what is the consensus of what is a perfect turn in most people's minds.

Your opinion sounds to me if I understand it correctly is you don't even want to go down the road to attempt do define a perfect turn or even that a perfect turn doesn't exist. I don't know if you mean that in an abosolute sense or if you simply think the excersise won't be informative to people.

I believe the people that are still doing hop turns/pop turns/stein turns/ survival wedge turns may enjoy having a goal set to strive for. I will also find out if mine is a minority opinion. Based on the questions I see people striving to improve their skiing I do not think a goal of defining a perfect turn is a bad one.

I do have a question for you along this vein. Bob talks about the PSIA centerline model. I did an internet search and found a news article that said the whole PSIA direction that was starting to be built around the centerline model has been droppped. In it's place is a pile of tools instructors can pick up and use however they personally feel will best help their students.

So I have a general question as I'm not in the teaching profession. Is there no skill set to master or recommend goals to reach as the news article I read said or did they misundersand. Your post sounds like the pile of tools is the approach you prefer.

I would submit that the ski student with limited time and limited dollors might themselves prefer a more goal oriented approach. If that premise is correct then I see absolutly nothing wrong with seeing if there is any consensus on what the Perfect Turn is.

This thread discusses what the Perfect Turn is not. A latter thread will discuss what the Perfect Turn is. Then a latter thread will discuss are there any contradictions in that model or can it be improved. That's where I'm going with this. If it helps people form opinions or movtivates people to improve their sking technique than I will be happy for the time I'm spending on it. If you feel it's counterproductive than that's what a forum like this is all about. State your reasons and back them up.
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hunter.:
If you want to dissect the perfect carved turn it needs to be applied to a groomed blue run.
Thats reasonable. Two thoughts,

1. I never said Perfect carved turn. But that's whats fun about this. I now know when you think Perfect turn your thinking Carved turn - or - your thinking I'm thinking Carved turn. Bob's Perfect Turn included carved turns but was certainly broader than just carved turns. I have not said what I think the Perfect turn is, just giving samples so far of what I think it is not.

and

2. You are probably correct. Black and double black terrain requires a set of skills that vary greatly depending on the terrain. Is there a rock to jump, breakable crust to deal with, etc.

So, it's my thread so we are talking about the Perfect Turn as limited to blue groomers only for the sake of defining our terms.
post #9 of 25
I think you are getting hung up on Barnes' unfortunate labeling of his turn as "the Perfect turn". It's simply a turn that is a blend of tipping and steering, that gives directional control. Note that blend can mean slight to great amounts of tipping and steering. The steering is merely used to give precision of direction.
post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
. But you don't mix Hop with Bob's perfect turn as he described it.
Damn it I had better stop having those lessons with all my instructors & get you to teach me then.... :

Because I seem to have strange recollections of being taught to use those hop turns to break free in cruddy stuff & then gradually decrease the intensity until I am back to a 'regular' type turn.... Stupid concept that blending stuff... you are right of course - your vast experience & superior intellect must mean you are correct... what can those guys possibly know!
post #11 of 25
John thanks for that.

I am more interested in the wider aspect that Shedden covers by the term skillful skiing. It does involve techniques, various ones, but as importantly the perceptions that assist in their applications, lines, strategies, goals which a particular run at a particular time can offer. Observations made going up the hill, watching other skiers, listening to the skis on the snowcrust, observing the sun and shaddows and the metamorphosis, etc, are integral parts of your skillful descent.

More fixed are your body's capacities at any one time. Does your posture allow for optimum reflexive reponses, are you skiing with the rhythms appropriate to your own strength and the task in hand, is your breathing helping in this? What limits are you setting yourself and your equipment? These are all factors and if the result may not always look pretty, who really cares?

Each man and the mountain. Just the two of them.
post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
[QB] The Perfect Turn:

As with anything in skiing, verbally translating what are dynamic balancing movements can be an exercise that can be fun, complex, and sometimes even frustrating.

If there is such a thing as a perfect turn then this would be a natural goal for many skiers to aspire to. With no goal in mind how is ski instruction to reach it?
John,

First of all professionals do not "teach turns". Okay folks....it's time to learn the _____ Turn!

We also do not teach "dynamic balancing movements".

We don't teach people to become "Expert Skiers". That is the baileywick of folks selling snake oil to the suckers born every day.

I ask you to ponder the difference between teaching skiing to people and teaching people to ski!

We teach movements. Learn the right movements and you will never worry about types of turns or the perfect turn.

The "Perfect Turn" does not exist. I'll give you one of Bob's favorite expressions that he learned in the seven years he worked with the Mahre brothers......"you only made your best turn once"
post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
I think you are getting hung up on Barnes' unfortunate labeling of his turn as "the Perfect turn". It's simply a turn that is a blend of tipping and steering, that gives directional control. Note that blend can mean slight to great amounts of tipping and steering. The steering is merely used to give precision of direction.
Perhaps your right. I'll go ahead and skip my other planned posts. I had read Bob's Perfect Turn and it sure seemed to me that if tipping was strong enough to initiate a turn and change directions than adjustments to tipping is certainly enough to adjust the shape of the turn rather than using leg steering for that.

Leg steering, which took me months to unlearn, I found to be much more inefficient than simply adjusting the inside ski tipping. That has been my experience.

That's a pretty structural difference of opinion of the basic way to make a turn, much less a perfect turn.

When I saw Bob's description except for his statement that leg steering is used to finely control the shape of the turn and his further statement that in a carved turn there is no rotation, I thought we may be on the same wavelength.

However, most posts here are seeming to totally water down what Bob said and re-introduce a strong emphasis on leg steering which Bob did not have in his post.

But I guess what I'm seeing is there is indeed still fundemental differences in even the basic question of how to turn the ski between many on this forum and the best books I found that helped my skiing which to repeat (since I removed my earlier posts) were the Books by Lito, Harold, Eric and Rob, and Craig.

But that's all right. I'll keep working on my skiing with what works for me.

I will then leave it as I have learned that most here believe it is an evil thing to think that there is a Perfect Turn. With no goal then there is no path.

Oh, one last little comment. The Perfect Turn that I try to do and Bob's definition of the Perfect turn are very versitile things. Since the amount of tipping controls the size of the arc and body positioning controls the angulation and thus the edging of the skis any combination of drifting, edging, or turn shape is possible. It does not seem that most people here realize the breadth and scope of that method of turning the skis. Bob goes into this in some length in his description. You can do Bob's perfect turn most of the time in blacks. Also, logically, leg steering is not really needed in most turn situations since it duplicates in an inefficient manner what is better done with tipping.

Off to the equipment forum.

You guys can keep going here if you like but I'm done with this thread that I started. It's clear most disagree with me so we'll just have to be content to disagree on the most fundemantal issue of how to ski.
post #14 of 25
How much can you tip at slow speed - like very slow... if you are skiing with a friend on the beginner slope & a beginner gets out of control & falls just in front of you what will you do?


The other 'not perfect turn' you missed was a 'park & ride' type turn where the skier simply tips the skis on edge & goes for the ride with limited control on direction... I see quite a lot of these on the hill...
post #15 of 25
Trust me John Mason, you didn't unlearn anything. You replaced you're natural inefficient steering with better more efficient steering. Its pretty tough to tip without introducing rotary movements in skiing.

I think that you are illustrating something that many of us already know. Most skiers have no idea what a good turn looks like or even how one goes about doing one.

Bob's perfect turn can be compared nicely to Haralds weighted release as performed in any stance width. It is not comparable to lift to learn.

Lift to learn can introduce just as many dead ends as wedge stances can. There are pitfalls no matter what the system is. The human body only moves efficiently in certain ways and whatever method gets you there is fine. What is certain is that without constant feedback, natural inefficiencies creep into everyone's skiing. Eventually the inefficiencies stop further progress, unless they are once again, plucked out of our skiing.
post #16 of 25
What's interesting about this discussion is that someone with a similar instructional background tried to initiate a similar discussion. If you're interested, refer to the thread What is the "Epic standard" for turns on 6/09/02. The outcome paralleled this one.
post #17 of 25
Hi John,
You've been very thoughtfull and are working toward something here, but seemed put out when the others didn't follow. I believe I understand your ideas and your perceptions, but thought I'd add a point here as well.

First, I've read and taught methods from all the books you mentioned and espouse. I will say that "expert skiing involves movements that allow for the whole continuum of turn shapes/blends from the pivot slip (including the hop turn) to the pure railed carve. To be totally verstatile and have the ability to put your skis in the exact spot on the snow you want them you need to be able to move smoothly anywhere along this continuum. The people who wrote these books you enjoy use the whole spectrum of choices. The main difference between what you may be believing in right now and what turned you off in the posts above is emphasis. (and maybe indirect name calling by the psia spokesman)

Anyway, I hope your quest for the perfect turn of the moment continues and you use accurate movements to solve the ever changing environment in which we are so lucky to play on a daily basis.

Cheers, Wade
post #18 of 25
There is no one perfect turn as there is no one perfect woman. There are many.

Some guys find one they like, one that works for them, and stay devoted.

Some bounce around, always searching for a better one to grab onto.

Others work on their technique and develop a stable of many which they keep at their disposal.
post #19 of 25
John Mason,

The problem with spoon feeding information is that many of us are intelligent people (and some are good skiers) who prefer to get your entire opinion up front and then discuss it. We hate to be lead to your conclusion like children. David M. tried that approach and failed miserably.

Why not just state your opinion on what is a perfect turn and we go from there.
post #20 of 25
JM-
For someone who claims to have a curiousity as a relatively new skier, you sure seem to want to expound upon some gospel you have latched onto.
And the means by which you are attempting to influence others, that of making some obtuse, unsupportable statement and then running away when others do not agree with you, is pretty childlike. Deleting posts while a thread is ongoing, or posting/ then retreating, are not acceptable ways to encourage others to your point of view. You need to stand your ground and present well thought out, logical arguments to support your position. But if you post, you had better be prepared to listen as well. Communication is a 2-way street.

But be advised, there are many of us here who have been fulltime instrs for as long as(or longer than), with the same credentials as(or more than) many of those names you keep dropping.

So if you aren't getting the support you believe your position deserves, maybe take a look at the sources of your info. Maybe that's what is at fault.

Either way, getting into a pissing match with a bunch of pro's, while declaring yourself a neophyte yet again, is not going to gain you much credibility as a poster.

If you desire clarity, then ask the question you would like assistance in divining the answer to. If you would like to encourage debate over a particular concept, great. Then propose your theory and stand by to support it.

But these hit and run tactics you have been employing are so tedious. And since you have not yet established any credibility in the threads you have been involved with, this somewhat confirms my earlier thought-

"TROLL" !!

If I am incorrect in my assessment, go ahead- prove me wrong!
post #21 of 25
Thread Starter 
Hmmm - I'll break my own statement and return to this once again. By the way - apparently SCSA knows you - vail snopro /ric reiter. He wanted me to tell you some sort of challenging macho message. But I'll just change that to - he says hi and misses you. (oh - I do edit a lot because the second I post I see grammer and spelling errors - I only deleted my first time in when I realized there is a lot of history here I was unaware of. I felt like I stepped in dog poo. Shouldn't have even hijacked that post. It wasn't nice of me.)

I decided to drop this whole thread I started precisely because people, experienced instructors, etc instead of participating and discussing were doing ad-hom attacks.

Take your post for instance. You don't want to answer because you think I'm trying some tricky way to lead people by the nose. That's the type of attitude that I find rather riduculus.

I see overlaps in the techniques and even sameness here and there but terminalogy is used differently by people. By taking the approach as I was going to I would get past the terminalogy barrier and get closer to understand what people mean in their minds with the terms they are using.

What really makes this rather pointless is the rather post-modern attitude by many here. There is no best turn or way to turn best. If that's what people really believe then how can they teach people. The variation of this is, everyone can benefit from different approaches. I can agree with that, but what is the goal of these different approaches. Once I saw that attitude in many in this community, that there is not even a turn type that people should aspire to bring their students to, then I realized the whole basis of my thread - what is the Perfect Turn or what is not the Perfect Turn became meaningless.

If you truly don't think that there is a turn type that might be the goal I bet most of your students could help you out. I bet many of them if asked would say - I don't want to turn like that person but I would like to ultimatly be able to turn like that person over there. But it sounds like that desire of the student is wrong. Don't have a picture in your mind of what type of skier you want to end up like after your many lessons and investment of time and money.

It seems absolutly unscientific and mindless to me to not have some group mind opinion of what a Perfect or Desired turn type is.

But that may be why the state of ski instruction is in such disarray.

Anyway - to repeat - what is the point of beginning to discuss what a goal is if the people you would like to discuss it with do not see the point of setting goals.

Utterly Pointless.
post #22 of 25
John

it is a worthwhile discussion. It may not lead where you would like, but the journey is worth the shoeleather.

As I said, I find the concept of skillful skiing a more worthwhile if more nebulous goal, it would be nice to package up the perfect turn and display it on the skischool menu, but I think you underestimate the aspirations of the skiing public by treating them as consumers of such a product.

Now if you are interested in perfection, a Japaanese professor has built a robot that does carve beautifully but it's dead boring as a chairlift companion. Try googling it, actually quite interesting science.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
...What really makes this rather pointless is the rather post-modern attitude by many here. There is no best turn or way to turn best. If that's what people really believe then how can they teach people. The variation of this is, everyone can benefit from different approaches. I can agree with that, but what is the goal of these different approaches. Once I saw that attitude in many in this community, that there is not even a turn type that people should aspire to bring their students to, then I realized the whole basis of my thread - what is the Perfect Turn or what is not the Perfect Turn became meaningless.

If you truly don't think that there is a turn type that might be the goal I bet most of your students could help you out. I bet many of them if asked would say - I don't want to turn like that person but I would like to ultimatly be able to turn like that person over there. But it sounds like that desire of the student is wrong. Don't have a picture in your mind of what type of skier you want to end up like after your many lessons and investment of time and money.

It seems absolutly unscientific and mindless to me to not have some group mind opinion of what a Perfect or Desired turn type is...
I haven't had much time to be active on Epic lately, but let me add my two cents to this discussion.

IMHO, your statement above sounds like you are operating with an underlying implicit assumption that there exists a single "perfect turn" that one can identify and should strive for.

My POV is that there isn't one "perfect turn" because there are a virtually infinite number of skiing situations and snow conditions that have to be dealt with. For example, when skiing down to my class, I may need to (a) re-demo one of several moves that I have been teaching; (b) get down to them as quickly as possible; (c) drift slowly down alongside the last student in a protracted sideslip while giving coaching. I may decide to stop facing them, or quickly spin around and face in the same direction they are facing. This might happen on ice, PP, slop, or any other snow condition. This might happen on a wide easy slope, or a narrow twisty trail through the woods with rising snowbanks on each side. The "turns" I make in each case will be different, and the blend of skills will be different for each. If even just one these situations occurs that I can't handle with grace, it will be abundantly clear to any onlookers that I have a major limitation in my skiing.

An inexperienced recreational skier may look down from the chair, see someone coming down a blue either doing racing speed wide-track carved turns, or gracefully coming down more slowly looking like Stein in the 50's with their feet glued together, and decide that they will die happy if they could just do the same thing.

Obviously, the truly best skiers will be able to do both of these types of turns and more, picking from their tool box of skills as needed.

In a sense, inexperienced skiers have the luxury of going down the same slope all day and being happy when they get one turn "right". As they progress, experience many different situations, and demand more of themselves, they will realize that they need a larger repertoire of turns. I realize this is a perhaps nebulous concept of "good skiing", but I find it very hard to see how having multiple "perfect turns", each appropriate to a different situation can be bad.

You said, "...There is no best turn or way to turn best. If that's what people really believe then how can they teach people?" The answer is that you don't teach turns, you teach skills that can be blended to achieve any one of many types of turn as demanded by the situation at hand. We might work on them one at a time, in depth, but the goal is breadth and overall skiing competence.

Just my $0.02,

Tom / PM

[ March 10, 2004, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #24 of 25
Nice Tom! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

John, advanced skiing is about negotiating a multitude of diverse challenges. To do so many different types of turns/techniques must be developed to high level of proficiecy.

A good coach/instructor will isolate the skills needed to perform many types of turns/techniques (the core skills)and help the student hone them. If you have enough lumber (skills) you can build any house(turn)you want.
post #25 of 25
Physics Man

that post pretty well sums it up for me Tom. You'd enjoy John Shedden's writing on 'skillful skiing' if you don't already know it. Don't you guys sleep?
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