New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Isolated movements? - Page 3

post #61 of 78
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for the information on biomechanics and isolated body movements. Although the thread has somehow lost it's way a bit here in that my intent was to discuss movement of the skis in these three planes and around the corresponding axis of the skis. I though I offered the idea of it usually involving a complex combination of body movements to produce the seemingly simple and isolated movement of the skis. I am still hoping that through all of this we find more examples of an isolated movement of the skis that is used while skiing (not just in drills). 
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/9/09 at 3:54pm
post #62 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

So are you now saying that you can produce inversion/eversion without pivotting?

without pivoting the skis?  ABSOLUTELY!    without the foot twisting?  NO!


The body can change angles (in relation to the feet) over a fixed foot/ski (ie thousand steps), or the body can remain fixed and the feet/skis can pivot underneath (ie: pivot slips) or any combination in between; However, the tipping and twisting of the feet are inseparably linked.
post #63 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post




Let's see if I can narrow the gap...

I could isolate the foot movement below the knee, or conversely, isolate a femur movement in the hip joint too.  However, I felt that what I had to do to achieve those movements in isolation was sometimes quite different than the blended movement that I would use skiing. 

The overall movements are absolutely important, but I couldn't see the benefit of trying to consciously isolate the movement when actually skiing.  I think I can see benefits in a biomechanical assessment though, evaluating joint function and range of motion for example.

Any closer?

I think we agree in general!  I am not advocating consciously isolating this movement, just pointing out that these two movements are intrinsically linked and can be used to our skiing advantage.
post #64 of 78
 I'd suggest that a slight countering of the upper would be adequate to "resist the twist". 

I honestly can't see the relevance to 1000 steps/pivot slips and everything else in between.
post #65 of 78
Quote by Bud: "However, the tipping and twisting of the feet are inseparably linked."

Hey Bud, what if we were to do the inversion or eversion thing while simultaneously counter-rotating the lower leg (or whole leg)?  Wouldn't that let us do inversion or eversion without any sort of pivot occurring at the skis (or feet for that matter)?

.ma
post #66 of 78
 I respectfully believe I could counter with torso and still make a pivot turn entry.  The drawing we have all seen many times illustrating two lines, one of which is the path of the feet and one the path of the cg., with the understanding that the shoulders are basically perpendicular to the line of the cg..  If you are with me so far, from the point where the cg. is intersecting the path of the feet there is a divergence.  This drawing demonstrates the feet traveling divergent from the cg..  It is in this phase that I am asserting the biomechanics of the foot and ankle will facilitate a carved entry by the feet turning toward the outside of the arc while simultaneously tipping onto an inside edge (remember this is a movement inside the boots and not an externally visible action).

There have been endless discussions on tipping, tipping the down hill ski to the little toe edge to start the turning, tipping to edge, etc..  I have not noticed anyone talking about giving the feet a little proactive twist to the outside of the arc to aid the tipping.  It is a seemingly semantical difference but could help those suffering from constant pivot entries to eliminate the impulse to twist the feet toward the fall line, instead, twist them the opposite direction, which may not actually occur, yet will aid the edge engagement and eliminate the pivoted entry through the effort to do so.

The relevance of 1000 steps vs. pivot slips is this, pivot slips involve turning the feet underneath the torso which is moving directly down the fall line.  The cg. is not moving to the inside of the turn, in fact there is no turning, the cg. remains between the base of support.  1000 steps requires the edges are set and the hips are twisted inside the arc of the turn with each step or, the feet,(inside the boots) make a subtle twist toward the outside of the arc, even though the skis do not track outside the arc.  Stated another way, the hips/cg. are set on a diverging path as the feet are tipped to an edge, also the feet are twisted away from the center of the arc though the edge grip and the sidecut of the ski do not permit the ski to turn outside the arc.  In fact the more they twist the more the edge is engaged as these two movement in the foot are linked.

I find this concept difficult to put on paper as I do not have the composition skills of a BB or Roger Kane.  However, this concept does directly conflict with the idea of "early counter to resist the unwanted pivot".  Watching world cup skiers it is clear to me they do not create early counter in their turns unless a sudden correction is needed rather their torsos and shoulders continue facing the path of their cg. which I believe supports my point.

I believe the alternative to early counter to "resist the twist" can be substituted with the concept of permitting the feet to move ahead of the hips at a diverging angle during edge change as the feet are tipped inside the boots (inside foot inverted, outside foot everted).  This can be facilitated by (consciously at first)  actively twisting the feet toward the outside of the turn to complement the tipping, consequently eliminating any pivoting.  In fact these two movements can not be separated so I am only suggesting that by changing the focus from tipping the feet, we experiment with twisting the feet toward the outside of the turn to achieve the same result and helping to eliminate any impulse to cause a pivoted turn entry.

Try this with your hands!  lift you hands and simulate a turn initiation as if they were your feet.  If you simply tip them and simultaneously point the finger tips in the direction of the turn you will simulate how most people think about a turn entry, tips go down the hill and tip to an edge. This mindset creates too much opportunity for a pivoted entry if your intent is to carve, However; if you now take your hands and twist them the opposite direction as you tip them into the same turn as above, you create strong edging.  This movement coincides with the re-centering phase of the turn so that the feet are pulled back under the hips or the hips are moved forward over the feet, your choice.

Have I totally confused you?  hope not.  It just takes a willingness to let go of some ingrained concepts and entertain a different intent.
post #67 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

Quote by Bud: "However, the tipping and twisting of the feet are inseparably linked."

Hey Bud, what if we were to do the inversion or eversion thing while simultaneously counter-rotating the lower leg (or whole leg)?  Wouldn't that let us do inversion or eversion without any sort of pivot occurring at the skis (or feet for that matter)?

.ma
Yes!  or simply twist the feet right to go left rather than left to go left!  Twisting the feet right to go left will tip them on their left edges no? 
post #68 of 78
Bud, Yep! I agree entirely.  Didn't we get into a hashup with others on this very topic some while back?    Somewhere in one of the many debates on rotation and it's many inherent relationships with tipping?

.ma
post #69 of 78

Yeah, but it seems that Bud's writing skills have improved!  I see what you're talking about.

The question is:  Is the twisting force LARGE enough to make a real difference in the behaviour of the ski?

post #70 of 78
 Great! I finally got my point across!  YEh!

The twisting is very small and quick and visually unsubstantial BUT... it affects the path of the cg. in a positive way and negates the urge to twist the other way or pivot the skis!  It supports the diverging path of the cg. and feet and sets the more offensive path down the hill.  It's a kinda "will" thing!?  It takes a certain level of confidence to allow the skis to shoot out to the side while the body goes down the hill.  This sensation or mindset helps skiers go from skidded arcs to experiencing the sensations of a carved entry.

Thanks for keeping an open mind guys!
post #71 of 78
Bud, would that be the same as a "pre turn" or "counter steering" in the non carved genre of skiing? By jabbing our skis to the right we offset our body into the turn left and then our skis pivot arround and find their way back underneath us.
post #72 of 78
 tdk6,

I agree with the "counter steering" concept.  

The pivot is not a requirement, though.
  
post #73 of 78
 and I agree with Cgeib!

What we need to be careful about assuming this movement is just like a pre-turn because a pre-turn is an old technique that creates a wind up movement to stretch the muscles to then use an anticipation release to initiate a turn which most times involves a pivoted turn entry!  The movement I am advocating delays this anticipation release so that it occurs after the edges have been changed and engaged.  Once the new edge(s) are engaged, the extension and anticipation release occurs which eliminates the pivoting.  So the timing of the release is the key difference between my "twist n tip" concept and a normal pre-turn.  The tension in the legs is held a split second longer during the crossover/under until there is sufficient edge grip to avoid any pivot.  Another important point is the subsequent extension movement needs to be offensive rather than passive to avoid falling on your face!  Notice I said face and not hip, because there is no need for any kind of countering here.
Edited by bud heishman - 10/10/09 at 10:23pm
post #74 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
...Another important point is the subsequent extension movement needs to be offensive rather than passive to avoid falling on your face!  Notice I said face and not hip, because there is no need for any kind of countering here.

Heh, funny story on that exact thing.  A long while back I'd tried this movement and got it working pretty well, then forgot all about it.  A month or two later the same idea was being taught in a clinic I was in. 

Since I was confident I had this pattern down I made little effort to be 'active' and just operated my feet in a lazy, passive manner.  ... *WHACK*!  ... Ended up slamming my face (not hip) into the snow as my feet went right while my body went face-first downhill. 

This is one technique where you've just got to have your 'Directional Movements' down pat.

.ma
post #75 of 78
 You might want to think about the tipping action of the feet driving the ankles into the side of the boot, rather than lifting the LTE/BTE of the forefoot or some other thought based on the focused on the ball of the foot.....  Seems to help.
post #76 of 78
 MichaelA,

That's it!  You know you are doing it when you get lazy or behind and thwappp!  active re-centering is mandatory!  Got to have "will" in your turns and he has to go!

BigE,

That is a good focus.  I remember 25 years ago we were talking about this triangle of contact inside the boot between the first met head, the heel and the inside ankle bone.  The point was to feel all three contact the boot early in the turn.
 
post #77 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

 tdk6,

I agree with the "counter steering" concept.  

The pivot is not a requirement, though.
  
 
You are right, there is no pivot required. I was somehow thinking of bumps I think.
post #78 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 and I agree with Cgeib!

What we need to be careful about assuming this movement is just like a pre-turn because a pre-turn is an old technique that creates a wind up movement to stretch the muscles to then use an anticipation release to initiate a turn which most times involves a pivoted turn entry!  The movement I am advocating delays this anticipation release so that it occurs after the edges have been changed and engaged.  Once the new edge(s) are engaged, the extension and anticipation release occurs which eliminates the pivoting.  So the timing of the release is the key difference between my "twist n tip" concept and a normal pre-turn.  The tension in the legs is held a split second longer during the crossover/under until there is sufficient edge grip to avoid any pivot.  Another important point is the subsequent extension movement needs to be offensive rather than passive to avoid falling on your face!  Notice I said face and not hip, because there is no need for any kind of countering here.
 
Gotcha. I was only trying to get on the same page. Seems like many people have an issue with setting up the gross inclination of the turn early on. You cannot just wait for it to happen. Yes I know the face plant. Has happened to me a couple of times when I swapped from SL skis to GS skis and the long planks did not come arround as quickly as I was hoping. The body offset into the turn is happening
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching