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Nick Hill attacks each turn - Page 7

post #181 of 300
E, "Poster boy" and the "I wouldn't use that as a textbook" type of comments you keep using only shows you have adopted a very narrow view of what good skiing is and that all we're talking about here is carved turns. Attacking a carved turn is certainly one manifestation of the concept of attacking but is it the only one? Hardly.
Moving towards the danger is how Rick has described this in the past and I for one really like that description. The "WILL" to overcome your fears and to accept greater risk with no hesitation (or hitting the pause button) is my take on Weems' last comments about the subject of this thread. IMO they are talking about the very same thing. Heck, even Bob's description of pivot slips includes an explanation of offensive intent and a great example of moving towards the danger. Seeking speed even though we're pivoting the skis back and forth requires a willful choice to avoid the harsh braking and the hard edge set / rotary push off movements I described. It also explains why I see using tip pressure as a poor measure of attacking and offensive intent. Way too many people take the idea of working the tip and over do it. It's a great example of the "Some is good so more just has to be better" thinking. So to answer your last question, no attacking in the context of this thread isn't about just going fast or just about attacking a carved turn. It's about moving towards the danger instead of hesitating, or running from it.
post #182 of 300
^ Nice post, JASP. 

Quote:
It's about moving towards the danger instead of hesitating, or running from it.

Fight or flight? Fight and attack seem synonymous. No flinching is a very cool way to describe it too. 
post #183 of 300
Someone in this thread brought up how one needs to know what the skier was doing or intending to really say whether that skier was attacking or not. I think there's a lot of validity to this. For one thing, is 'attacking' always faster in a course? How does one even define it? We kind of know generally what it looks like, but over - attacking could be slower and thus not accomplish the desired goal of the attack in the first place.

Attacking a race course may mean different things to different skiers. I have no idea, but say Bode may consider the key element to  'attacking' to be waiting. Waiting that extra fraction of a second to commit when his mind is telling him to go now. So his 'attack' is more against his thoughts. He may be faster actually not  attacking in the immediate action, actually doing 'nothing', but in the overall view we would say he's really attacking. Either way - whether waiting for the moment or attacking immediately, he's exercising Will. So Bode's all out 'attack' skiing may be a result of not attacking at the right time, but it looks like he's attacking all the time.
post #184 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post



I'd give my left nut to ski like Weems. 
You gottal love comic relief once in awhile!
post #185 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Someone in this thread brought up how one needs to know what the skier was doing or intending to really say whether that skier was attacking or not. I think there's a lot of validity to this. For one thing, is 'attacking' always faster in a course? How does one even define it? We kind of know generally what it looks like, but over - attacking could be slower and thus not accomplish the desired goal of the attack in the first place.

Attacking a race course may mean different things to different skiers. I have no idea, but say Bode may consider the key element to  'attacking' to be waiting. Waiting that extra fraction of a second to commit when his mind is telling him to go now. So his 'attack' is more against his thoughts. He may be faster actually not  attacking in the immediate action, actually doing 'nothing', but in the overall view we would say he's really attacking. Either way - whether waiting for the moment or attacking immediately, he's exercising Will. So Bode's all out 'attack' skiing may be a result of not attacking at the right time, but it looks like he's attacking all the time.


 

I think Bode attacks by "Reacting". It's a "balls out" approach that has him falling down a hill reacting to the race course itself. He has all the skills necessary to win every race but seems to use them in a reactionary method of skiing. Because of this, his recovery methods and anticipation are second to none that I've seen. Recless? Maybe.

So, I put forth the theory that Reacting is a form of attacking.

Whatdoyathink?
post #186 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post

 As I've been working on my new dvd and website, I've been looking for great examples of one of the diamond principles that I call Will.  The fundamental principle of Will is the intention to MOVE, to attack.

I thought these shots of Hilly really show that.  Taking all your "stuff" into each turn, confidently, and fearlessly, seem to be such a powerful piece of great skiing.

 

Sorry, but he looks like he is bored or knows he is on film..........good skier, yet not attacking in the clip.
post #187 of 300
I have gained a better understanding of the differences between gliding sports relying on gravity to accelerate vs. locomotion sports where gravity does not play an active role and acceleration is a result of some mechanical or physical effort as in motorsports or say football or track n field.

"will" as it pertains to skiing, seems to involve a mental effort to conserve the glide and avoid braking or any movement that would alter the desired path down the mountain.  It involves giving in to the forces to move across the skis rather than clinging to the mountain.

"attack" could be a mental or physical effort to exert maximum effort to a movement.  While this may conjure one image in a football player or track n field athlete, it does not have the same connotation for a sport that relies strictly on gravity and reducing friction for acceleration, as bob barnes pointed out.

These two terms are certainly not synonymous.
post #188 of 300
Attack and will have many different meanings to everyone it seems and nothing wrong with that. I for one think that the WC skiers freeskiing show great attack. Not only great attack but also a very efficient and powerfull outcome. Nobody can ski that well without attacking. That includes setting high edge angles and keeping the skis carving on edge going 50mph down an icy hard steep slope making it seem like a walk in the park for the "untrained eye". You can for example not compare the opening post skier to the WC guys free skiing."Will" is something that helps the WC guys and many other successfull and great skiers going from sunrice to sunset.
post #189 of 300
Well said, Tog:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Someone in this thread brought up how one needs to know what the skier was doing or intending to really say whether that skier was attacking or not. I think there's a lot of validity to this. For one thing, is 'attacking' always faster in a course? How does one even define it? We kind of know generally what it looks like, but over - attacking could be slower and thus not accomplish the desired goal of the attack in the first place.

Attacking a race course may mean different things to different skiers. I have no idea, but say Bode may consider the key element to  'attacking' to be waiting. Waiting that extra fraction of a second to commit when his mind is telling him to go now. So his 'attack' is more against his thoughts. He may be faster actually not  attacking in the immediate action, actually doing 'nothing', but in the overall view we would say he's really attacking. Either way - whether waiting for the moment or attacking immediately, he's exercising Will. So Bode's all out 'attack' skiing may be a result of not attacking at the right time, but it looks like he's attacking all the time.
You have said what I have been thinking... that observing may not give us enough data to determine "attack" or not. "Not flinching" implies that there is enough of an "oh-oh" moment to create a flinch if we're not taking it on, and that is a very individual thing. Makes me wonder if you have to be in someone's head in order to judge "attack" or not? What do you think?
post #190 of 300
Skiing a race course especially at top level needs serious commitment and attack. You simply cannot go down that track without attacking it. But people do it differently. Simply compare Bode with Pranger. One is calm as a old lady taking an afternoon nap while the other is shaking, spitting, steaming and exploding out of the gate. Still both are attacking the course. Only in their own way.
post #191 of 300
 The race course is a place where you will find attack, but not in all sections or on all turns.  Sometimes the tactical choice is not to attack, so you don't get going too fast to make an upcoming feature.

iriponsnow,

Thanks for reposting the original post: 

weems posted: As I've been working on my new dvd and website, I've been looking for great examples of one of the diamond principles that I call Will.  The fundamental principle of Will is the intention to MOVE, to attack.

Then the video is of a skier making carved turn.

I am sticking to this narrow technique, since that's what weems began.  Sure, you can show speedskiers doing 225 kph and claim attack, and that would be correct.  However, that is not bring the greatest image of WILL/attack to broadcast to a student of the sport.

OTOH, "attacking" a pivot slip won't make for good entertainment, and won't capture the viewer -- it's not "real skiing".

As far as Toni waiting through transition and setting up the turn, it looks too lazy to be an effective demonstration of will/attack.

I'm trying to help weems here -- the best examples of will in this thread come from Heluvaskier's videos. Why? because it makes the point that weems wants to make within the original context.  It clearly shows WILL/attack within the context of making turns at speed.
post #192 of 300
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 
-- the best examples of will in this thread come from Heluvaskier's videos. Why? because it makes the point that weems wants to make within the original context.  It clearly shows WILL/attack within the context of making turns at speed.





 
I think the bump guys that skierdude posted are even stronger.
post #193 of 300
Perhaps they are, but groomer skiing is available everywhere.

Thanks for listening.

Cheers!

 

post #194 of 300
Thread Starter 
And if they don't like your skiing, send them this.

http://pixdaus.com/single.php?id=8980

(Sorry, couldn't get it to upload.)
post #195 of 300
Attack?


 
post #196 of 300
Nope. Park and ride. Also known in this case as grin and Bear it.
post #197 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Skiing a race course especially at top level needs serious commitment and attack. You simply cannot go down that track without attacking it. But people do it differently. Simply compare Bode with Pranger. One is calm as a old lady taking an afternoon nap while the other is shaking, spitting, steaming and exploding out of the gate. Still both are attacking the course. Only in their own way.
Well actually you could go down that course in a wedge...oh...you mean have a chance of getting the fastest time on that course? Ok, you need serious skills and physical ability, commitment - i.e. Will, and tactics. (oh wait, if we throw "touch" in there then we've got the Sports Diamond).  
The thing is you call "calm as an old lady taking an afternoon nap" and "steaming and exploding..." both "attacking". Clearly "calm as an old lady..." is not what we commonly mean by "attacking"!   Yet both are in the ball park of winning on the course, so "attacking" in the common sense is not a necessity.

As a side thought,does Joe Mauer,(Minn.Twins ), who's hitting .370 right now 'attack' the ball? He sure hits it a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

I think Bode attacks by "Reacting". It's a "balls out" approach that has him falling down a hill reacting to the race course itself. He has all the skills necessary to win every race but seems to use them in a reactionary method of skiing. Because of this, his recovery methods and anticipation are second to none that I've seen. Recless? Maybe.

So, I put forth the theory that Reacting is a form of attacking.

Whatdoyathink?
 
Ok, people who actually have some knowledge of racing at this level should feel free to chime in here, but nevertheless.I think actually it's the total opposite and it's true of all skiing.
I think Reacting is defensive.
Reacting to the race course, or the trail etc., means you take what you get. An action is taken after an event. Something has happened and the skier reacts- whether it's say "oh my god it's ice!" or a bump, or in this case the location of a gate. A skier Reacting is thus in the past already. Meaning that whatever actions the skier is about to take are in response to an event that has already occured. Something happens, you react. Clearly this is not in the same realm as attacking where actions are initiated to create a result.

Take the gates for example. Does one react to where the gate is? That is the description of a true novice in a Nastar course. You can watch them get to the gate, then turn. They don't know that they have to create a path around the gate that exists before they get to it. 

You're saying Bode has incredible anticipation. Anticipation is also opposite to Reacting. Anticipation is focused on the future, what is about to happen, or what is going to be encountered.  Now I suppose you could say Bode's recoveries start as reactive, but I think they change very quickly to creating a result he wants instead of just surviving. This is an active,focused on the future movement - trying to create the result of getting on a line he wants. I'd say he may look in survival mode, or "reckless", but to him it's not since he's creating until truly it's too late.
 
Now let's take wc or high level bump skiers. To the untrained eye, it looks like they are merely reacting to the bump that's there. It looks like the bump pushes their skis to the side each time. Reading anything by BushMogulM will quickly dispel this notion. The high level bumpers are looking ahead like 20 bumps! They are both creating the line they take and creating what they want to happen with their skis and body position. They are again focused on the future and initiating actions to effect it  Now those actions may not work out like they want, in which case they respond and create by initiating new actions. This process never ends obviously, and can cycle in fractions of a second or a much longer time scale. Someone who coaches at that level would be able to see most of the process. To others, it's just one big blur of action.

This brings up Bob's "Go There" paradigm. Which says good skiers turn to "go there" or go where they want, It is offensive in nature. Skiers who have the paradigm that they "turn to slow down" are defensive in nature.

So good skiers, "go there" - offensive - take it further and we get - attack.
Not so good skiers, constantly braking - defensive - we could say 'submit' to conditions?

Offensive to me is a little one dimensional.Where do we go from there? There's attack.

There has often been this phrase "falling into the future" used here to describe essentially allowing yourself to go down the hill while your skis come around and catch you. "Go There" implies that you are skiing into the future - you are determining the path you take before you've gotten there. We could say that you are creating the future you're skiing into. At every moment. I would describe it as Responsive instead of Reactive. One responds to the snow conditions, the terrain, equipment, physical condition etc.

What about the "Go There", offensive skier who comes to terrain or situation he's not comfortable with? If there's only offensive, or attack as descriptors, but they employ some sort of defensive move, are they then defensive skiers? We know they're not. They still are creating the way things will go, it may not work out like planned but they create again in a seamless process.
So I would say "Go There" - is Creative skiing. The skier creates the future, it may be offensive, very offensive, attacking, or even at times defensive. The intention though is to create the future one is skiing into. Using "Creative" for good skiing allows the inclusion of the style Ricde58 talks about which is a style that is not attacking or offensive but is not defensive either.

If the opposite of creating is reacting, then opposite to "Go There" - Creative skiing is Reactive - defensive skiing.
Thus, in this theory of the world, there are two types of skiing: Creative and Reactive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post


 

You have said what I have been thinking... that observing may not give us enough data to determine "attack" or not. "Not flinching" implies that there is enough of an "oh-oh" moment to create a flinch if we're not taking it on, and that is a very individual thing. Makes me wonder if you have to be in someone's head in order to judge "attack" or not? What do you think?

 
I think we can speak from the outside of a style that looks attacking. A person may be attacking in their intent but it will not look like an attacking style. Can the reverse be true? - They're actually attacking but it doesn't look like it?
I guess I agree with BigE in that the video under discussion is not what I think is generally considered attacking. Clearly it is not defensive. It is under the "Go There" model, it's offensive. It's Creative - he's creating how it will go.
 It doesn't look so much what we usually describe as attacking, but it kind of is too.
Maybe it's the casualness of the transition that makes it look not attacking but actually is attacking.

You could almost look at Bode's antics as a high stakes poker game. He waits till the last moment to play his hand, which hand will he play? He has the physical ability and technical skills to do what few can do. I think what keeps him in the game is it really is constantly a creative act. Where will he turn, what method for that line and speed etc.. Things don't work out quite as planned and he creates a new hand. All while going very fast and being on the edge.
There's that book title on the US ski team downhillers, Right on the Edge of Crazy, Now creating in that situation, that's some serious fun! - for him.
post #198 of 300
Hey E I didn't know you inspected roller coaster tracks for a living. How much does that pay?
No wonder Nick looks so pedestrian to you.
post #199 of 300
 weems, 


post #200 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I think we can speak from the outside of a style that looks attacking. A person may be attacking in their intent but it will not look like an attacking style. Can the reverse be true? - They're actually attacking but it doesn't look like it?
I guess I agree with BigE in that the video under discussion is not what I think is generally considered attacking. Clearly it is not defensive. It is under the "Go There" model, it's offensive. It's Creative - he's creating how it will go.
 It doesn't look so much what we usually describe as attacking, but it kind of is too.
Maybe it's the casualness of the transition that makes it look not attacking but actually is attacking.
For me, Doug Coombs remains the ultimate skier. Perhaps his single most telling characteristic is that he looked comfortable, even on the most extreme terrain. I remember hearing of a quote from him as he watched competitors: "Oh. I didn't know we were supposed to make it look hard."

From my perspective, Doug always attacked. But, you could never tell he was attacking. Do you think he is?





post #201 of 300
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 weems, 


Yup.  Dat's me. 
post #202 of 300
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post


Attack?


 

Attack?  Nope.  Surrender!
post #203 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post




Sorry, but he looks like he is bored or knows he is on film..........good skier, yet not attacking in the clip.

So Weems is out skiing with Hilly and sees how well he is ripping it up.  Weems turns to Hilly on the chair and says, "I'd love to shoot some of your skiing for my next DVD, how about we ski down and you put in some of your usual dynamic big carves". "Sure love to", says Hilly.

From this point on I'm thinking Hilly is in focus and doing his best for the camera.

Weems and ssh ski down and set up. With the job done and reviews checked everyone agrees Hilly has accomplished some great "attack" turns with all the correct movements, definitely worthy of a place in the new DVD.

Weems says to ssh, "why not put some of Hilly's video up on Epic as a bit of discussion and promo". "Can't let Fastman sell all the videos this season!"

Now here we are with the apologists crying foul and that intent is the reason Hilly's turns look a bit lazy and pivoted with late engagement. As if he was just minding his own business when some guy jumps out from behind a tree and starts filming.

I call BS to the cheer squad. Your MA abilities are in question, of that there is little doubt.

At least Hilly will benefit if he reads the truthful critique offered in a few of the posts.
post #204 of 300
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post




So Weems is out skiing with Hilly and sees how well he is ripping it up.  Weems turns to Hilly on the chair and says, "I'd love to shoot some of your skiing for my next DVD, how about we ski down and you put in some of your usual dynamic big carves". "Sure love to", says Hilly.

From this point on I'm thinking Hilly is in focus and doing his best for the camera.

Weems and ssh ski down and set up. With the job done and reviews checked everyone agrees Hilly has accomplished some great "attack" turns with all the correct movements, definitely worthy of a place in the new DVD.

Weems says to ssh, "why not put some of Hilly's video up on Epic as a bit of discussion and promo". "Can't let Fastman sell all the videos this season!"

Now here we are with the apologists crying foul and that intent is the reason Hilly's turns look a bit lazy and pivoted with late engagement. As if he was just minding his own business when some guy jumps out from behind a tree and starts filming.

I call BS to the cheer squad. Your MA abilities are in question, of that there is little doubt.

At least Hilly will benefit if he reads the truthful critique offered in a few of the posts.
 
oooooooo.  hurt hurt.  so harsh.  

Thank you sir, may I please have another.
post #205 of 300
Thread Starter 
By the way,  all the MA notwithstanding, my late son had a phrase that he would say to evoke attack, commitment, Will, etc.  He would say it just before a big run or drop-in.

"Lick the stamp, and send it."  (I carry a dog tag with this engraved on it on the key chain to my motorcycle.)

The thing I love about skiing, as that anyone can send it.  At any level of skiing.  To watch a beginner do this is really fine. Skiing is about the Icarus story--both in its reference to hubris and to aspirations.  So for me,  MA matters less than the willingness (and even bravado)  to aspire even though one might fail.  After all, we're living on the margins.  We might as well check it out.

Here's another version from a prose poet, Louis Jenkins:

FLIGHT

 

Past mishaps might be attributed to an incomplete

understanding of the laws of aerodynamics or perhaps even

to a more basic failure of the imagination, but were to be

expected.  Remember, this is solo flight unencumbered by

bicycle parts, aluminum and nylon or even feathers.  A tour

de force, really.  There's a lot of running and flapping involved

and as you get older and heavier, a lot more huffing and

puffing.  But on a bright day like today with a strong

headwind blowing up from the sea, when, having slipped the

surly bonds of common sense and knowing she is watching,

waiting in breathless anticipation, you send yourself

hurtling down the long, green slope to the cliffs, who knows?

You might just make it.

 

                                                               Louis Jenkins 

post #206 of 300
I was recently reading the blog of Warner Nickerson  Warner is a Colby Alumni, like Bob, Muleski, and myself.  Unlike Mule and me, who called top 10 a good day, or Bob, who wasn't even on the team, Warner went on to be an NCAA and national champion, and US ski team member.  Here are his remarks from a race last month in New Zealand:
Quote:
I pressured my skis too late in the turn, which is never fast. When you make crisp turns the bulk of the pressure is above the gate in the top of the turn. Instead the bulk of my pressure was below the gate that essentially is similar to hitting the breaks at the end of a turn.

I ended up moving back a bit to finish off the podium.
 

That reminded me of this remark:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Bob,

The skier is toppling into the turn with little to no diagonal movement across the skis and thus little to no pressure at the top of the turn.  The initiation is so late, he's got to pivot to make up for it. An "attacking" skier delays nothing. 

"Falling down the hill like a sack of potatoes" is a good description.  Lolly-gagging is a far better term for this than "attacking".



 

If the skier in the original post is, in Warner Nickerson's analysis, hitting the brakes at the end of the turn, I don't think we can call that attacking.
post #207 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post

By the way,  all the MA notwithstanding, my late son had a phrase that he would say to evoke attack, commitment, Will, etc.  He would say it just before a big run or drop-in.

"Lick the stamp, and send it."  (I carry a dog tag with this engraved on it on the key chain to my motorcycle.)

Great image weems, I love it.

Somehow "click 'send mail'" just doesn't have the same panache.
post #208 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

I was recently reading the blog of Warner Nickerson  Warner is a Colby Alumni, like Bob, Muleski, and myself.  Unlike Mule and me, who called top 10 a good day, or Bob, who wasn't even on the team, Warner went on to be an NCAA and national champion, and US ski team member.  Here are his remarks from a race last month in New Zealand:

That reminded me of this remark:

If the skier in the original post is, in Warner Nickerson's analysis, hitting the brakes at the end of the turn, I don't think we can call that attacking.
Perhaps in "old school" racing. With all of the examples of the radical styles by say Ted Ligety that have been posted and talked about here, late engagement by itself does not rule out attacking. The images that have been discussed about Ligety - he is skiing off the tails and turning after the gate!

I see no hitting of the brakes here. There's an interesting tail movement laterally while the tips are engaged at the start of the turn.
I think we have an idea what attacking should look like and this doesn't conform to it according to most here. By the way, what type of skis is he on?
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Bob,

The skier is toppling into the turn with little to no diagonal movement across the skis and thus little to no pressure at the top of the turn.  The initiation is so late, he's got to pivot to make up for it. An "attacking" skier delays nothing. 

"Falling down the hill like a sack of potatoes" is a good description.  Lolly-gagging is a far better term for this than "attacking".
I get the point, and generally agree, sort of and but....
Well, if Ligety in what generally is considered an "attacking" style, is waiting so late to make his turn he's already past the gate, this statement is false. Racers with that style seem to be delaying everything!
post #209 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post




So Weems is out skiing with Hilly and sees how well he is ripping it up.  Weems turns to Hilly on the chair and says, "I'd love to shoot some of your skiing for my next DVD, how about we ski down and you put in some of your usual dynamic big carves". "Sure love to", says Hilly.

From this point on I'm thinking Hilly is in focus and doing his best for the camera.

Weems and ssh ski down and set up. With the job done and reviews checked everyone agrees Hilly has accomplished some great "attack" turns with all the correct movements, definitely worthy of a place in the new DVD.

Weems says to ssh, "why not put some of Hilly's video up on Epic as a bit of discussion and promo". "Can't let Fastman sell all the videos this season!"

Now here we are with the apologists crying foul and that intent is the reason Hilly's turns look a bit lazy and pivoted with late engagement. As if he was just minding his own business when some guy jumps out from behind a tree and starts filming.

I call BS to the cheer squad. Your MA abilities are in question, of that there is little doubt.

At least Hilly will benefit if he reads the truthful critique offered in a few of the posts.

 

 I don't know Hilly (or most of you for that matter), I think this thread is getting a little geeked
out.  I hear all this about MA & how someone knows how to ski best.  I was simply pointing out that I would not use that video for the attack section.  Hilly appear to be an acomplished skier & think everone is getting a little carried away with critque mode.  
 Several season back, there was a thread like this that ended in Highway Star calling out folks for a ski off.............I learned alot that day. 
1) HS could ski
2) all the critics were terrible skiers
3) we should ski more & mouth off less
4) most don't have a clue about what they were posting

 I will thank this thread for some nice turns by Hilly & Hella (who I hope to someday meet) & Tony (who I have not skied w/ in 10 years). 

 I think the rest of the arm chair quarterbacks need to give it a rest until the snow flys.
post #210 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashski View Post




Weems says to ssh, "why not put some of Hilly's video up on Epic as a bit of discussion and promo". "Can't let Fastman sell all the videos this season!"


 

Weems, you sly old dog,,, so that's what you're up to with this. 

Hey, I should sell all the DVDs,,, I've got the best legs in my pretty race pants.  Right Ashski???
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