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Nick Hill attacks each turn - Page 6

post #151 of 300
10/1/09 at 1:54pm
The montage of Heluva is showing more attack that Tony Sears. 

The evidence is in the transition post neutral.  In the burst sequences, Tony floats through transition on his heels, while Heluva moves quickly onto edge and forward to initiate.

The quickness of edging and initiation shows far more attack than floating through neutral in the back seat and waiting for the body to fall downhill to engage the edges.

This does not suggest that Heluva is any better or skiing faster than Tony.  Just that the burst shots of Heluva show more attack. Heluva's videos shows more dynamism that Nicks do.

Any video that is to highlight attack must show clearly show early and dynamic movement -- especially at initiation.  If you float and topple to an edge, it's really not a great example, regardless of speed.  There is a section of Heluva's video around 2:50 and 3:20 that I think are good examples.
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post #152 of 300
10/1/09 at 1:58pm
BigE, please be mindful that the montage of Toni that I posted was not intended to show "attack", but that movement isn't necessarily "towards for forward part of the skis".
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post #153 of 300
10/1/09 at 2:23pm
Im stepping in quite late in this thread but IMHO Bud takes first prize here with cool go there attac dont care if I wipe out photo. Nicks stance is too square leaving his hips out over his skis causing unnesessary drift and skid. The "attac" factor is therefore not really 100%. He almost looks scared to me. Stiff with fear?
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post #154 of 300
10/1/09 at 2:53pm
 ssh,

Isn't this thread about attack?

Here are some really good skiers free skiing -- everyone of them can "bring it".  

Does anyone see "attack" here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU

I don't.
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post #155 of 300
10/1/09 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 ssh,

Isn't this thread about attack?
Yes... and all of the topics that have spun off from it. One of them was the idea that you must "move towards the front of the skis" to ski well. I took exception and attempted to illustrate my position with a couple of stills. I had hoped that I explained this pretty well in the text surrounding the stills. My apologies if I failed to do that well enough.
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post #156 of 300
10/1/09 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

Here are some really good skiers free skiing -- everyone of them can "bring it".  

Does anyone see "attack" here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU

I don't.
Yep. Cuche, for sure from my perspective. But, "attack" as we've noticed is very much an "eye of the beholder" thing...
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post #157 of 300
10/1/09 at 4:29pm
ssh,

If attack is in the eye of the beholder, then, it is an absolutely useless concept. Attack must be a visually detectable, especially if weems is looking for a video to highlight it.....  Or maybe weems is just fooling around? 
As far as getting forwards to ski well,  yes, it's true.  Toni knows how to ski well, but that does not mean each and every second he's on the slope his actions are perfect.  That would smack of idolatry, as it's not a realistic expectation for anyone..

His montage looks fun and stylish and is quite far above the average skier, but it's not what I'd use in a textbook.
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post #158 of 300
10/1/09 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

Isn't this thread about attack?

Here are some really good skiers free skiing -- everyone of them can "bring it".  

Does anyone see "attack" here?

 

No, I don't see attack, & I don't think their will is to attack.  I think the will is probably more about execution.  Same with Helluvas video, even though he is clearly attacking & being very dynamic, if he wanted to turn down the volume I'm sure he could execute the same accurate turns without attacking.
JF
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post #159 of 300
10/1/09 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

ssh,

If attack is in the eye of the beholder, then, it is an absolutely useless concept. Attack must be a visually detectable, especially if weems is looking for a video to highlight it.....  Or maybe weems is just fooling around? 
As far as getting forwards to ski well,  yes, it's true.  Toni knows how to ski well, but that does not mean each and every second he's on the slope his actions are perfect.  That would smack of idolatry, as it's not a realistic expectation for anyone..

His montage looks fun and stylish and is quite far above the average skier, but it's not what I'd use in a textbook.
Wow. Having been present when Toni's montage was taken, that's the last thing I'd likely say about that skiing!

So, I say I see "attack" and you say you don't. If "attack" is somehow an objective measure, you must then be able to tell me exactly what the visual cues for "attack" are so that we can decide whether or not they exist in a given frame or video capture. So, what are they? What is the set of specific, objective, unequivocal visual evidence that a given skier is "attacking"?

I do not believe that such things exist, but rather that there are clues (rather than cues) that a given skier is committing more or less (see, I really don't like the word "attack" to describe skiing), but I am more than happy to be shown the error of my ways. So, what are those cues?
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post #160 of 300
10/1/09 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I teach slow line fast (round high line) a lot. What I'm trying to say is once we can execute that line well, it's time to start working on a more offensive line.
 


And one of the best things you can do to help people find the WILL to explore those more offensive lines, and speeds, and skid angles,  is first teach them how to ski the fast line slow with precision and skill, at any moment during the execution of any turn on any terrain.   Sounds counterintuitive, but it's a crucial component to building the confidence to let it go.  It provides the security of a virtual safety net that lets the mind find comfort in exploring new tricks.  I mean, think about it,,, the arch enemy of WILL is fear.  
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post #161 of 300
10/1/09 at 5:08pm
What occurs to me reading this is how Mr. "Slow-line-fast" himself is so stuck on using pivot slips for training (the ultimate "fast-line-slow" exercise?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

And one of the best things you can do to help people find the WILL to explore those more offensive lines, and speeds, and skid angles,  is first teach them how to ski the fast line slow with precision and skill, at any moment during the execution of any turn on any terrain.   Sounds counterintuitive, but it's a crucial component to building the confidence to let it go.  It provides the security of a virtual safety net that lets the mind find comfort in exploring new tricks.  I mean, think about it,,, the arch enemy of WILL is fear.
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post #162 of 300
10/1/09 at 5:20pm
Perhaps a better expression that "attack" skiing might be "kick-out-the-jams" skiing, or Turn-it-loose and Let'em-run skiing, how about free skiing.
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post #163 of 300
10/1/09 at 5:38pm
So, a quick question: who would describe a straight run as "attacking"? How about straight-lining a steep couloir? In both cases, the skier will make very few movements, beyond simply remaining balanced and, perhaps, absorbing terrain irregularities.

Would that constitute "attack"?

What if you were just riding a sled? Do lugers and bobsledders "attack" as they glide down the track, seeking to avoid any slowing movements? If they don't attack, would they go faster if they did?

Like I said, it isn't just that we can find different meanings for the word "attack," but alpine skiing (and other sports of gliding) positively beg for a different definition. Either that, or "attacking" isn't something of value in these sports.

Best regards,
Bob
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post #164 of 300
10/1/09 at 5:47pm
SSH--I beg to differ about pivot slips--they are far from the "ultimate fast line slow" exercise! (That would be hockey stops, which share some mechanics with pivot slips, but involve a very different intent.) The only intent that will allow you to accomplish pivot slips well is the intent to go as fast as you can--whether in the sideslip or the pivoting phase. Of course, as they are an exercise, they are different from "skiing" in that the intent must also be to perform the exercise a certain way, so the technique may rise above any particular tactical outcome in importance. But I would say that the offensive intent to go as fast as you can go (within the designated parameters) is highly evident in pivot slips. And, therefore, they can--and should--involve "attack"!

Best regards,
Bob
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post #165 of 300
10/1/09 at 5:51pm
If I were on a sled and attacking a course I would be finding the fastest line. On skis  free skiing it would be using all I have to maintain speed,line and turn shape at the highest rate I can handle.

It's a tough word to describe but we could define it as a form of being proactive and bringing forces to bear beyond casual skiing and not waiting to react. You define your shape and line using your skill to harness the forces you know will be occurring.
 
An attack will use whatever is necessary to slay a run .A cruiser will roll with the punches
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post #166 of 300
10/1/09 at 6:03pm
I am not worthy to offer any real technique related comment, but I will offer a comment about the general approach.  When I was younger (much younger)-- I used to want to "attack" the mountain.  Now, I am much more interested in learning to playfully dance and caress the hill as I proceed in what I hope will someday approach a gentle and well choreographed exchange between loving partners not warring adversaries.  I feel that this gentle intent in no way rules out firm and unwavering  commitment to the turn or the overall pursuit.

Now...back to the show.
Edited by RiDeC58 - 10/1/09 at 7:52pm
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post #167 of 300
10/1/09 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

So, a quick question: who would describe a straight run as "attacking"? How about straight-lining a steep couloir? In both cases, the skier will make very few movements, beyond simply remaining balanced and, perhaps, absorbing terrain irregularities.

Would that constitute "attack"?
 
Straight run, weight a touch back deep tuck? or standing up straight weight centered?
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post #168 of 300
10/1/09 at 6:45pm
Now you're onto it, gang.  High edge angles are skills for the timid.  The most pure form of attack is no edge angle at all. 
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post #169 of 300
10/1/09 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

What occurs to me reading this is how Mr. "Slow-line-fast" himself is so stuck on using pivot slips for training (the ultimate "fast-line-slow" exercise?).
 



I'm on board with Bob on this one, Steve.  Pivot slips are more about learning to quickly and drastically alter skid angle,  than they are about speed management.  Once you're in a turn, with skis more strongly engaged, that skid angle provides speed control.  So,,,, they're a useful drill for learning/training fast line slow skills, but not the ultimate.  Not sure I'd give that designation to any one particular drill. 
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post #170 of 300
10/1/09 at 7:17pm
Hmm, getting good at skills required for pivot-slips so that you have the ability to rapidly and efficiently increase skid angle whenever you want, so that with the ability to slow at will you won't be afraid to ski faster.  Learn what it takes to ski slow so you can ski fast, has a certain ironic zen-like appeal to it.  Of course you could just get good at doing hockey stops on speed skis. That might be more fun than practicing pivot slips.
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post #171 of 300
10/1/09 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

SSH--I beg to differ about pivot slips--they are far from the "ultimate fast line slow" exercise! (That would be hockey stops, which share some mechanics with pivot slips, but involve a very different intent.) The only intent that will allow you to accomplish pivot slips well is the intent to go as fast as you can--whether in the sideslip or the pivoting phase. Of course, as they are an exercise, they are different from "skiing" in that the intent must also be to perform the exercise a certain way, so the technique may rise above any particular tactical outcome in importance. But I would say that the offensive intent to go as fast as you can go (within the designated parameters) is highly evident in pivot slips. And, therefore, they can--and should--involve "attack"!
Ok, Bob, I see your point. 

The context within which I was thinking was that in a pivot slip you are slipping with your skis aimed completely across your line of travel for most of the time, and you can't get much more "contrary" than that. Perhaps that will help communicate what I meant.
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post #172 of 300
10/1/09 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58 View Post

I am not worthy to offer any really technique related comment, but I will offer a comment about the general approach.  When I was younger (much younger)-- I used to want to "attack" the mountain.  Now, I am much more interested in learning to playfully dance and caress the hill as I proceed in what I hope will someday approach a gentle and well choreographed exchange between loving partner not warring adversaries.  I feel that this gentle intent in no way rules out firm and unwavering  commitment to the turn or the overall pursuit.

Now...back to the show.
Well said! I really relate to this! 
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post #173 of 300
10/1/09 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

I'm on board with Bob on this one, Steve.  Pivot slips are more about learning to quickly and drastically alter skid angle,  than they are about speed management.  Once you're in a turn, with skis more strongly engaged, that skid angle provides speed control.  So,,,, they're a useful drill for learning/training fast line slow skills, but not the ultimate.  Not sure I'd give that designation to any one particular drill. 
Beat me to my question, Rick! So what other drills do you think of as training fast line slow skills?
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post #174 of 300
10/1/09 at 7:48pm
Bob, Since you brought it up...Yes, straight running is the ultimate "attack" line. Technique wise it is different from turning but it does take skill and a commitment to moving down the hill. Same can be said for nordic jumpers and speed skiers. OMG, 140 mph isn't even a possibility for most of us in our cars and those guys are doing it on the snow? I remember last spring we watched a guy straight run through a rock field and at one point the snow wasn't much more than maybe eight inches wide. Staying on line through that choke didn't happen by just parking and riding. Even though he didn't move much, the task didn't call for big movements. The guy had no room for error, or tenative and defensive behavior. Doug Coombs and that whole sub set of big mountain guys re wrote what most thought could be done on skis.
 
I also remember watching the freeriders over at Snowmass a few years ago. At first it just seemed like huckers and hop turners but two days later I understood more about the scoring and the precision involved in their competition. It really is more than base jumping on skis. I'm sure someone could suggest these guys aren't skiing but all that say is the sport is wider than your perceptions and it is growing wider everyday. World extreme and the freeriders tour are some of the most aggressive skiers I've ever seen ski. Why, line choice and techniques that facilitate maximum glide. Do they use fast line fast all the time? Hardly, like I said earlier hop turns and traverses are a large part of setting up to launch off a hundred foot cliff and land it. So knowing where and when to open it up and where not to is still involved. Before anyone suggests they can't ski they need to go see them rip double black slopes with volkswagon sized bumps at fifty+ mph after they land.

To bring that back to the normal world we ask out students to face their fear all the time and their perception of the slope they are straight running just might look that steep to them. It might be the beginner corral and it might be just twenty feet but for them it is a cliff. Can anyone say sliding scale?

Nick isn't at either end of these examples but how could I possibly suggest he isn't attacking in the context of how WEEMS defined his comments and his subsequent definition of his words? In that context Nick is moving into the new turn. Has it occured to you guys that you are telling Weems what he wrote and how he meant it? How obtuse!

So what about the myth that attacking equals tongue pressure? Tony Sears showed me otherwise. So did you Bob. (BTW thanks for all the coaching last spring). Do we have to drive our shin into the boot to attack? Does Tony? No, but like Steve pointed out Tony does move his body into the new turn quite well. The obsession with tongue pressure has been debated before and for those of you that don't know Tony, he only has one speed, all out. And he claims to never pressure the tongue of his boot. You can tell him you disagree but I can tell you from first hand experience his technique works pretty well and it is very, very offensive and attacking. You don't have to believe me, Bob and Tony work over at Keystone, come by and play with them. IMO you will be in for a very new experience and a deeper understanding of howmany way there are to turn a ski.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/1/09 at 8:13pm
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post #175 of 300
10/1/09 at 8:30pm
I've said enough about what is and is not attacking.  Each and every post says the same thing about skiing carved turns.  I have no clue why straight running should show up in this thread. Another deflection.

No one except Ghost has made any comment about whether or not Heluva's skiing is attacking or not.  C'mon guys, let's "man up" and make a decision:

Does Heluvaskier's video show attack or not?
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post #176 of 300
10/1/09 at 8:47pm
E, No it's not a deflection, I simply responded to Bob's question like Ghost did back on post 167.

Man up? No one is debating heluva's skiing and if, or if it doesn't show a willful intent, or attacking. However, and this is the biggest however I know, it does not demonstrate it because he drives the boot tongues and pressures the tip. It's because he moves his body down the hill. A rotary push off move is an example of driving the tongues and levering the skis forward but the skier's body moves up the hill WHICH IS AWAY FROM THE DIRECTION WE WANT TO GO. You still load the tip but that cannot be remotely called a attacking maneuver. It's a braking maneuver. So there needs to be more to it than that and IMO early tip pressure is a myth and not needed in the turns Tony is doing.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/1/09 at 9:10pm
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post #177 of 300
10/1/09 at 9:26pm
 JASP,

1) When did Toni become the poster boy for attacking? See ssh post 126. 

2) Rotary push off == forward pressure in a pure carved turn? huh? 

3) Is this about skiing fast or attacking carved turns?

It's late, and I have to sleep.
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post #178 of 300
10/2/09 at 6:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

ssh,

If attack is in the eye of the beholder, then, it is an absolutely useless concept. Attack must be a visually detectable, especially if weems is looking for a video to highlight it.....  Or maybe weems is just fooling around? 
As far as getting forwards to ski well,  yes, it's true.  Toni knows how to ski well, but that does not mean each and every second he's on the slope his actions are perfect.  That would smack of idolatry, as it's not a realistic expectation for anyone..

His montage looks fun and stylish and is quite far above the average skier, but it's not what I'd use in a textbook.



 

Big E, you got it!  I'm just fooling around.  Here's what attack looks like!



Some thoughts;
1.  All the posted videos that I've seen show "attack" in my view.  But I was especially amazed by the bump skiing that skierdude posted.  That was incredible, beautiful skiing by really powerful athletes.
2.  I have been challenged this last season on just how critical it is (or is not) to jump onto the front of the skis at the beginning of the turn, and I'm doing a lot of experimentation on that.  It would be an interesting thread.  Some of what I've learned has come from Tony Sears and Bob, and much of it from Dadou Mayer in Taos.  The jury seems in reconsideration.  But that's another thread for another day.
3.  So what's this attack all about for me?  Let me 'splain it to ya.

The word is something that just stuck in my mind from my teenage racing days when I would hear coaches admonish me and others to "attack" the course, instead of just going for a Sunday stroll.  Later, I too, like some others here, found a conflict between that version of attack and the idea of being in harmony with the slope.  The other conflict was the one about whether it is possible to attack in a relatively tame speed/pitch environment (like the one in Hilly's video), as opposed to the video that Skierdude posted. That led me to just explore what it meant and how to use it.

The moment where I really understood what I was trying to get at with this word came from looking at it's opposite, and the most powerful manifestation of that (for me) occurred one day in Taos, when Jean Mayer's son, Sasha, observing a really strong steep bump skier, said, "He didn't flinch."  I loved that, and it really became my definition for "attack".  Not flinching.

The reason this was so critical is that I realized that this is what so many skiers do in so many situations where there is a little hesitation to move into the new turn.  I feel the moment of "flinch" happens when a skier starts to release the edges at the beginning of an edge change (sometimes even before), and realizes that acceleration is beginning to take place, and the body/mind says, "No."---or "I'm not so sure about this", and does something other than move into the turn with joy, appreciation, and commitment.  This moment requires an enormous act of the Will--a willingness, as Rick mentioned, to manage anxiety and to take the risk of failing.  I would go so far as to say that I can almost define the difference between a good skier and a not-so-good skier as their relative willingness to move into that accelerative edge change.  At that point the hill offers all the power  I need to ski.  I can accept it (attack), or reject it (flinch).  The attack is expansive, offensive, dynamic, harmonious---a "moving with" the acceleration.  The flinch is contracting, rigid, holding position, trying to stop the universe, protecting--rejecting the the acceleration. 

And finally, the reason I bring it up is that it is not necessarily technical--not about skills OR movements--for many many skiers.  It can be enhanced through the technical tools, as well as the tactical ones.  But ultimately it is a matter of doing, and as much as I believe that it is totally intuitive (given the goal and the understandings of what skiing is), I must defer to my students who say that "this is really counterintuitive".  I think when they say that it is somewhat of a smokescreen for "this scares the hell out of me".  However, I've got to respect it anyway.  And the concept of attack (the fall line, or the edgechange moment) is a powerful metaphor for making that happen.  And, by the way, so is "let it happen".  And, clearly, there are many more solutions--almost as many as there are students.

Finally, I think this thread is pretty much done, so I'm gonna drop out (but still listen in).  I really appreciate the talent and passion and analytical skills I've seen and heard in this discussion.  Thanks for participating.  I've learned heaps.
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post #179 of 300
10/2/09 at 6:57am
Quote:
 C'mon guys, let's "man up" and make a decision:

I'd give my left nut to ski like Weems. 
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post #180 of 300
10/2/09 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post



The reason this was so critical is that I realized that this is what so many skiers do in so many situations where there is a little hesitation to move into the new turn.  I feel the moment of "flinch" happens when a skier starts to release the edges at the beginning of an edge change (sometimes even before), and realizes that acceleration is beginning to take place, and the body/mind says, "No."---or "I'm not so sure about this", and does something other than move into the turn with joy, appreciation, and commitment.  This moment requires an enormous act of the Will--a willingness, as Rick mentioned, to manage anxiety and to take the risk of failing.  I would go so far as to say that I can almost define the difference between a good skier and a not-so-good skier as their relative willingness to move into that accelerative edge change.  At that point the hill offers all the power  I need to ski.  I can accept it (attack), or reject it (flinch).  The attack is expansive, offensive, dynamic, harmonious---a "moving with" the acceleration.  The flinch is contracting, rigid, holding position, trying to stop the universe, protecting--rejecting the the acceleration. 

And finally, the reason I bring it up is that it is not necessarily technical--not about skills OR movements--for many many skiers.  It can be enhanced through the technical tools, as well as the tactical ones.  But ultimately it is a matter of doing, and as much as I believe that it is totally intuitive (given the goal and the understandings of what skiing is), I must defer to my students who say that "this is really counterintuitive".  I think when they say that it is somewhat of a smokescreen for "this scares the hell out of me".  However, I've got to respect it anyway.  And the concept of attack (the fall line, or the edgechange moment) is a powerful metaphor for making that happen.  And, by the way, so is "let it happen".  And, clearly, there are many more solutions--almost as many as there are students.
 

I think this WILL aspect comes into play even more in technical terrain.  I was reminded of this by the current thread  referencing the Corbett's article in one of the magazines.  If you watch video on Youtube, most of the really bad crashes happen when someone tries to throw in a braking edgeset half way down the wall.  I'm sure most of them know that is a really bad idea, but their bodies say "I'm not so sure about this."
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