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How much weight on inside ski?

post #1 of 53
Thread Starter 
I have been working hard to modernize my technique the past two seasons (I am level 7/8) using Harbs online tips and lessons. I initiate turns by rolling the inside ankle and knee. I think I have removed all steering and up-down movement from my skiing (on ideal groomed conditions). My son watched me from the chair and said all my weight in on my outside ski through most of the turn. I had not realized this. In watching the world cup slalom on oln, the commentators have pointed out how different racers apply different amounts of weight to the outside than others. I don't care what wins races but the more evenly distributed weight sure looks better (looks like riding on rails). What can I do to achieve this, especially when my skis are out on a high angle? If you can point me to where this has been already discussed, I'd appreciate it! thanks.
post #2 of 53
Tune into being aware of when relative to your turn transitions (before, during or after) you weight is 50/50, and for how long.

Then once you can experience it, play with it.
Get there sooner.
Stay there longer.
Pass thru that point quicker.

What is the effect of whatever you choose to cause?
Experiment with skiing both skis all the time, from a 50/50 shared role perspective, not necessarilly weight distribution.

Experiment with "allowing" turn dynamics re-distribute your weight appropriate to your speed, turn shape, snow condition, etc.

Set a goal to discover whether you should really try to "cause" your most efficient weight distribution, or if you can learn to "allow" it to develope from turn dynamics, and adjust throughout each turn based on the intent you have for each (both) skis role in the process.

Enjoy...
post #3 of 53
NCskier:

This is always a good thread to start with: How do you make a perfect turn?

Check out Bob Barnes description of "a" perfect turn which includes a good bit about weight transfer. Additionally, he added some graphics in a related thread that show pressure on skis throughout the turn... Those turns...illustrated

Also, Pierre recently posted a good explanation of the relationship between weight and pressure movement ....but I can't find it Maybe he can direct us to it!
post #4 of 53
Quote:
What is the effect of whatever you choose to cause?
Experiment with skiing both skis all the time, from a 50/50 shared role perspective, not necessarilly weight distribution.

Experiment with "allowing" turn dynamics re-distribute your weight appropriate to your speed, turn shape, snow condition, etc.

Set a goal to discover whether you should really try to "cause" your most efficient weight distribution, or if you can learn to "allow" it to develope from turn dynamics, and adjust throughout each turn based on the intent you have for each (both) skis role in the process.
What Arc said here in simple terms is. When the forces of the turn start to build pressure under the outside ski, try to put more weight on the inside ski to keep the feel between you're feet the same. The more you can do it the more it works. Keep forward contact with the shins on the fronts of the boots the whole time.
post #5 of 53
I really can see the value in the exercise Arcmeister describes where you play with when 50/50 happens and for how long. The clinician I had for Skiing Dev I a couple years ago did a very similiar exercise. I intend to play with it more next time I'm out.

Can I ask others when they typically figure the 50/50 point is when they ski- before transition, at transition, after transition? Very by terrain? situation?
post #6 of 53
Ya got it down--Pierre---I might add that for me a 60/40 +/- is about right. It allows for more inside ski steering-----
post #7 of 53
You really only need a slight amount of weight on the inside ski to allow for both active or passive (PMTS) steering.
As far as actively putting most of your pressure on the outside ski, there are some situations where this is the way to go. Mostly when you want to carve the top of the turn on a steeper slope. There is usually only enough total pressure there available to bend only one ski, so conciously shifting most of (97% [img]smile.gif[/img] )) the pressure to the outside ski will get it carving that much sooner. But do as Arcmiester says and experiment. Experiment with everything in skiing, there is alot to be learned from that.
post #8 of 53
What has helped me, is what I have been taught in clinics at my home area and in PSIA developmental events: executing "White Pass Turns," which place heavy emphasis on turn initiation with the new inside ski. Also, in concert with that, I have worked on "railroad tracks," which require the "shared pressure approach mentioned above, almost without thinking about whether it's 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30. Both of these are neat exercises, not to mention a blast in and of themselves. Good luck.
post #9 of 53
What has helped me, is what I have been taught in clinics at my home area and in PSIA developmental events: executing "White Pass Turns," which place heavy emphasis on turn initiation with the new inside ski. Also, in concert with that, I have worked on "railroad tracks," which require the "shared pressure approach mentioned above, almost without thinking about whether it's 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30. Both of these are neat exercises, not to mention a blast in and of themselves. Good luck.
post #10 of 53
How much weight should be on the inside ski? Not much.

The inside ski is really just inconvenient baggage that must be lugged through a turn until it can be transformed into a useful outside ski for the next turn. At most it should ideally be used only as a rudder (a training wheel) to stabilize and adjust predominant pressure on the outside ski, where it belongs.

I can give you 4 solid reasons why it's wise to avoid assigning a significant percentage of pressure to the inside ski.

1) The inside knee is flexed much more than the outside knee in high edge angle turns, which makes the inside leg a very weak mechanism of support. The straighter outside leg is a much stronger structure for resisting the forces created by carving.

2) Bio mechanics cause a foot with center/forward pressure applied to it to transfer pressure onto the 1st metatarsal (pronate onto the big toe side of the foot)which engages the inside edge.

That's great for carving a turn on the outside ski, but the opposite of what's needed to carve a turn on the inside ski.

3) The act of directing pressure laterally between outside or inside skis is nothing more than the physics of managing the ground impact point of the resultant force vector moving through our center of mass.

The direction/angle of that force vector is constant for each turn, and is dictated by the combined effects of gravity and centrifugal force. Because of that managing the ground impact point is simply a matter of moving the center of mass laterally while maintaining the same edge angle. To move the impact point from the outside ski toward the inside ski the CM must be moved further inside the vertical plane of the feet.

That's clearly a negative movement. It's extra and unnecessary body movement that does nothing to assist in producing the desired change of direction. All it does is increase the size of the pendulum swing of the center of mass from one turn to the next.

4) Diluting outside ski pressure with inside ski pressure diminishes ski bend, and thus increases turn radius. This mandates using a higher edge angle to produce the desired turn shape. Again extra body movement with no result enhancement.


SO WHY DO IT? Why strive for substantial inside ski pressure when doing so results in so many negative results, and adds so many unnecessary challenges to the task?
post #11 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by FastMan:
How much weight should be on the inside ski? Not much.
Quote:
Originally posted by Larry C:
Ya got it down--Pierre---I might add that for me a 60/40 +/- is about right.
That's quite a difference of opinion. Actually, the short answer to "how much pressure?" is: "Just enough." On hard snow, as in a race course, almost all the pressure will need to be on the outside most of the time to prevent skidding or chatter. In bottomless powder, nearly equal weight works best. Almost everything else is somewhere in between.

Arcmeister said it best:
Quote:
Originally posted by Arcmeister:
Tune into being aware of when relative to your turn transitions (before, during or after) you weight is 50/50, and for how long.

Then once you can experience it, play with it.
Get there sooner.
Stay there longer.
Pass thru that point quicker.

What is the effect of whatever you choose to cause?

Experiment with skiing both skis all the timeExperiment with "allowing" turn dynamics re-distribute your weight appropriate to your speed, turn shape, snow condition, etc.
High skill skiers learn to adjust the pressure distribution between skis in order to control their skiing based on their intent at any particular moment.

Regards, John
post #12 of 53
Oh, it ain't that tough to explain. If you are going balls to the wall at mach schnell you will likely have extreme pressure on the outside leg and additionally enough pendulum effect from centrifugal force to take 97% of the weight off the inside ski. You will have Fastmans senario. He probably hasn't done a slow turn in years and wouldn't know that pressure and weight are not the same thing.

If you are doing lazy slow open parallel turns that are highly finished you will likely carry a significant amount of weight on the inside foot that closely matches the pressure on the outside foot.
post #13 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Oh, it ain't that tough to explain. If you are going balls to the wall at mach schnell you will likely have extreme pressure on the outside leg and additionally enough pendulum effect from centrifugal force to take 97% of the weight off the inside ski. You will have Fastmans senario...
If you are doing lazy slow open parallel turns that are highly finished you will likely carry a significant amount of weight on the inside foot that closely matches the pressure on the outside foot.
I don't think centrifugal force has anything to do with it. As Fastman noted, pressuring the foot causes it to pronate, transferring pressure to the big toe. It's simply easier to balance on the big toe and on the outside ski. You can train yourself to ski 100% on the inside ski, but you will always be more comfortable on the outside ski. But you are right about open parallel turns, which are skidded turns caused by insufficient lateral balance. If you don't have the skill to get the ski up on edge and carving, you won't be comfortable balancing on a skidding outside ski. Hence the need to carry more weight on the inside ski, even on firm snow where more weight redistribution would be more effective.

Regards, John
post #14 of 53
John,
I asked, "WHY DO IT", and you answered with 3 legitimate situations in which directing significant weight to the inside ski is a good idea.

When a skier is not carving, but rather tossing tails and sliding, the ride is much rougher and force levels are very inconsistent. In this type of skiing it's nice to have two paws planted solidly on the snow, ready to absorb and react. You know, the dog in the bathtub stance!

When steering turns more equal weight distribution allows for efficient performance. You need two points of contact to steer (remember Bob's bar stool example).

Finally, in deep powder 50-50 provides better flotation and control of both skis.

I guess being predominantly an Eastern hard snow carver, groomed slope racer, kind of guy my focus is not on "bottomless powder", or non-carving, so I tend to not address those areas in my posts. Thanks, John, for filling in the gaps.
post #15 of 53
John Dowling I am not sure you understand what I wrote:

I said nothing about balance. Even with a 50/50 weight/pressure distribution we balance on our outside foot. We gain stability and verstatility from our inside foot. To be comfortable 50% or more of the total pressure should be carried on the outside ski. The inside ski does not carry pressure it carries weight.

For those of you who are trying to relate this to racing you need to keep in mind that the dynamics change. In my case, when I reach a certain G force, I do not have enough fore aft flexibility to move my hips closer to the snow. At that point increasing G forces removes the weight from my inside ski and my inside ski can lift off the snow. This is different for every skier but there is a maximum for each skier where weighting the inside ski is impossible. Fastman hopes all of his racers hit this point. I am talking more from a recreational point of view. Racing reaches bio limits.

Where I disagree with you is you're assumption that skidded parallel turns are caused from insufficient lateral balance. Insufficient lateral balance is caused by movement originating in the legs and hips, or upper body instead of the ankles. Carrying weight on the inside ski without using lateral ankle movements results in banking or excessive angulation

You go on to say that its skill that gets the ski up on edge and carving. This further makes me think you're thinking of moving from the knees and hips creating to much angulation. In open parallel, the further you move you're hips inside to gain edge with angulation, the more weight and pressure you must carry on you're outside ski. That is because you are depending more on balance and less on stability. You are messing with you're stance.

Lateral movements from the ankles will allow you to stay much more upright and over the skis without angulation and still carve. You can carve with a much lower edge angle.

I am going to go on record and say that putting both you're weight and pressure on the outside ski and more or less skiing on one ski, shuts down lateral ankle movements destroying stability and subsitutes balance, knee and hip angulation for basic ankle edging movements.

If you don't carry weight on the inside foot you cannot use you're ankles to do a decent open parallel turn. With most of the weight and pressure on one foot you will pull the hip to the inside in the last third of the turn. If you want to complete the turn well across the fall line with you're hips inside you will have to hang onto the turn rather than move dynamically towards neutral. That is because you're edging is the result of hip movement and moving the hips back to neutral gets rid of you're edge. You will need a slight traverse or a momentary platform with a big movement into the turn at slow speeds.

If you're movements are from the ankles you will be able to complete the turn 90 degrees across the fall line and progressively seek neutral without an abstem or traverse. You're turns will fit in a box instead of a rectangle. That is because you're edge does not depend on angulation of the hips.
post #16 of 53
All this becomes like conversations of analysis in an art gallery.

I suggest that mastery of pressure control (in all aspects of it's use) is the consumate "touch" that defies concrete analysis, and transforms skill with the basic mechanicals of edging and rotary into skiing as a personal expression of an artform.
post #17 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
If you're movements are from the ankles you will be able to complete the turn 90 degrees across the fall line and progressively seek neutral without an abstem or traverse. You're turns will fit in a box instead of a rectangle. That is because you're edge does not depend on angulation of the hips.
Maybe, Arcmeister, but occasionally a bit of interessting stuff gets thrown up. I want to get on snow to try out some of these theories.
post #18 of 53
Thanks Fastman you have cleared up an unresolved issue on my mental model of what I should be striving for when I ski.

I identify with your down-to-earth logical reasoning. The more meta-physical posts (e.g the difference between "not wanting to go left vs. wanting to go right" just don't work for me.

If you are skiing hardpack successfully with most of your weight on the outside ski, why fight it?
post #19 of 53
Quote:
If you are skiing hardpack successfully with most of your weight on the outside ski, why fight it?
James Powrie has a point here and his point was the basis of my observation for direct parallel. Skiing two footed is just another approach.

Arc said:
Quote:
I suggest that mastery of pressure control (in all aspects of it's use) is the consumate "touch" that defies concrete analysis, and transforms skill with the basic mechanicals of edging and rotary into skiing as a personal expression of an artform.
When cyberskiing gets to heady we need to remind ourselves that it is also done on snow much simpler. I like you're simple paragraph except there ain't no rotary. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Lemmie tell ya'll what a slow open parallel to 90 degrees across the fall line is useful for.

First and foremost, I can put all the pressure and weight on the outside ski after about two turns. The average time for me from top to bottom is around 11 seconds for 180' of vertical. With a slow open parallel to 90 degrees across the fall line I ski without the brakes on and after two minutes I am still counting. The chair lift ride is five minutes.

Second, a slow open parallel to 90 degrees across the fall line is very difficult to do and everything must be close to right. I have a lot to work on and think about other than 11 seconds of g force. When I take my skiing to a real slope its amazing what all that slow work produces. Yeah I still opt for the 11 seconds often enough.
post #20 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
John Dowling I am not sure you understand what I wrote:

I said nothing about balance. Even with a 50/50 weight/pressure distribution we balance on our outside foot. We gain stability and verstatility from our inside foot. To be comfortable 50% or more of the total pressure should be carried on the outside ski. The inside ski does not carry pressure it carries weight.
You are right I don't understand what you are trying to say. I don't know how a ski would carry "weight" without also carrying a proportional amount of "pressure." Weight is the force a body exerts on its base of support, and pressure (in this context) just that same force distributed over the area of the ski in contact with the snow. Most coaches use the terms "weight' and "pressure" interchangeably. I don't know how skis could be equally weighted, but not equally pressured. If you are using different, non-standard definitions, you should state what they are.

Regards, John

(I just re-read this post, and it sounds pretty cranky. It must be because I couldn't get out to ski yesterday.)
post #21 of 53
Cyber ski is mucho different--sometimes I wonder where common sense enters the picture-----we have to have enough of a judgement call to get us thru....."absoulute" is not a word indigenous to the sport---"It depends" seems to be appropriate---Larry C
post #22 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
...The average time for me from top to bottom is around 11 seconds for 180' of vertical. With a slow open parallel to 90 degrees across the fall line I ski without the brakes on and after two minutes I am still counting. The chair lift ride is five minutes...
I find myself skiing more and more like this as well, ie, going 90-to-90 in about 10 to 20 forward feet on every turn, leaving nice arcs in the snow. Unfortunately, the problems with this sort of skiing are:

1) Steepness on groomers isn't the thrill it used to be (provided I can go at my own pace). It now means little more than I have to make a bunch more turns of the same type, still making one every 10 feet or so to get to the end. I guess there was something more exciting about the old, semi-out-of-control way I used to have to get down such slopes. :

2) Fitting 100 turns into the same vert that most people practically straight line drives a lot of students crazy because everybody knows "speed = a good skier" and all these first-timers are wizzing by my classes in power wedges.

3) I'm getting mistaken for a golf cart more often.

Tom / PM
post #23 of 53
FM: I can give you 4 solid reasons why it's wise to avoid assigning a significant percentage of pressure to the inside ski.

I am not sure these are very solid reasons, so here are my comments:

FM: 1) The inside knee is flexed much more than the outside knee in high edge angle turns, which makes the inside leg a very weak mechanism of support. The straighter outside leg is a much stronger structure for resisting the forces created by carving.

Relevant for 3% of skiers - and I am being generous here. Most skiers make turns where the legs are reasonably matched. Turns where one leg is relatively straight while the other is very bent takes huge amounts of skill, edge, speed and experience.

FM: 2) Bio mechanics cause a foot with center/forward pressure applied to it to transfer pressure onto the 1st metatarsal (pronate onto the big toe side of the foot)which engages the inside edge. That's great for carving a turn on the outside ski, but the opposite of what's needed to carve a turn on the inside ski.

When the inside ski is on edge and the forward pressure hits the 1st metatarsal (big toe of the inside foot), that pressure still transfers to the outside edge of the inside ski. Carving may not be as "efficient" as with the outside leg, but it is certainly doable and will become essential when the outside leg skids out.

FM: 3) The act of directing pressure laterally between outside or inside skis is nothing more than the physics of managing the ground impact point of the resultant force vector moving through our center of mass.
The direction/angle of that force vector is constant for each turn, and is dictated by the combined effects of gravity and centrifugal force. Because of that managing the ground impact point is simply a matter of moving the center of mass laterally while maintaining the same edge angle. To move the impact point from the outside ski toward the inside ski the CM must be moved further inside the vertical plane of the feet.
That's clearly a negative movement. It's extra and unnecessary body movement that does nothing to assist in producing the desired change of direction. All it does is increase the size of the pendulum swing of the center of mass from one turn to the next.


Nobody moves to the inside of the turn in order to engage the inside ski. The idea is to start with a strong inside action and then let the CM slowly move towards the outside as the turn progresses. Nothing inefficient there!

FM: 4) Diluting outside ski pressure with inside ski pressure diminishes ski bend, and thus increases turn radius. This mandates using a higher edge angle to produce the desired turn shape. Again extra body movement with no result enhancement.

This does not recognize that edge grip and security is increased by having both skis carve. Neither does this recognize that today's skis are far less stiff (longitudinally) than older, straight skis, where this was a real issue. Today's flexible skis and deep sidecuts makes this argument very weak.

Sorry, but I felt that somebody should comment on what is a very misleading post. James Powrie bought into it and parhaps other will as well, but I wanted to present another view. I certainly ski with a dominant outside foot, but I could never dismiss the benefits of two-footed skiing like that.
post #24 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by TomB:
I am not sure these are very solid reasons, so here are my comments:

Relevant for 3% of skiers - and I am being generous here. Most skiers make turns where the legs are reasonably matched. Turns where one leg is relatively straight while the other is very bent takes huge amounts of skill, edge, speed and experience.
FASTMAN:
Two things Tom. First, skiing with differing amounts of knee flex in the inside and outside legs is not out of reach high level skiing, it's basic and necessary technique for any level of carved turn skiing.

Any time a ski is put on edge and allowed to carve lateral forces are generated that must be balanced by moving the CM to the inside of the turn. When the CM is moved inside the inside knee must be flexed or the outside foot will loose contact and rise off the snow.

The amount of inside knee flex will increase as the edge angle increases, but it's always there in some degree, and as such the inside leg will always be a weaker mechanism for resisting the forces of a turn than the outside leg when carving.

Want proof? Stand up and lift one foot off the ground. Feels like you could stand there all day, right? Now add some knee flex in the leg your standing on and you'll immediately feel the extra stress. Keep increasing the knee flexion and notice how the stress keeps intensifying. Not going to stand on that foot very long with the knee flexed are you? Why attempt to do it while skiing.

Second, you say this is only relevant for 3% of skiers. You may be right. I don't have stats at my disposal but I do know that very few skiers on the slopes carve clean turns, even though most are sporting shape skis. And I did acknowledge already that for those who aren't carving, weight on the inside ski is not a bad thing.

But the question that springs to mind for me is, WHAT ARE WE ASPIRING TO? I try to address ideals in my posts, stars to reach for.


Quote:
Originally posted by TomB:
When the inside ski is on edge and the forward pressure hits the 1st metatarsal (big toe of the inside foot), that pressure still transfers to the outside edge of the inside ski.
FASTMAN:
Not on it's own it doesn't. On it's own the inside foot would pronate and the ski would be driven off it's edge till it was flat on the snow. To maintain outside edge engagement of the inside ski the knee must be driven inside until the lower leg is leveraged against the outside of the boot cuff. That action negates the foots natural desire to engage the big toe edge of the ski.

Do it if you like, but I can't see it when you have an outside ski sitting there just waiting and willing to do it naturally.


Quote:
Originally posted by TomB:
Carving may not be as "efficient" as with the outside leg, but it is certainly doable and will become essential when the outside leg skids out.
FASTMAN:
Sure it's doable, and everyone should refine the ability to perform on the inside ski for those times when things go askew and you end up there by mistake. But why beat your head against a brick wall on purpose?


Quote:
Originally posted by TomB:
Nobody moves to the inside of the turn in order to engage the inside ski.
FASTMAN:
Tom, please reread my post, it contains a basic but important explanation of the physical laws that govern lateral balance in skiing. They are not open to debate, they are the law. Lateral movement of the CM controls the degree to which each ski is engaged.

Quote:
Originally posted by TomB:
The idea is to start with a strong inside action and then let the CM slowly move towards the outside as the turn progresses. Nothing inefficient there!
FASTMAN:
What your describing here is different from maintaining substantial inside ski pressure through all phases of the turn. Although you mis spoke. The CM is not moved toward the outside as the turn progresses, if anything it continues to be moved further inside as the forces grow and additional edge angle is added.

What you meant to say is that the angle of the resultant force vector (the combined affects of gravity and centrifugal force) moving through the CM steepens as the turn develops which moves it's ground impact point out to the outside foot.

Starting on the inside foot and allow the growing forces to move pressure to the outside foot, as you recommend, is an alternative to starting on the outside foot and just leaving the pressure there through the whole turn. I'm just not really sure what the benefits are to executing part of the turn in a bio mechanically weak balance position.


Quote:
Originally posted by TomB:
Sorry, but I felt that somebody should comment on what is a very misleading post. James Powrie bought into it and parhaps other will as well
FASTMAN:
Don't worry James, you didn't just buy a bottle of snake oil, everything I said is just basic foundational technical information, based in science, and proven on snow.

There is a wave of support currently for using the inside ski as the trigger for the initiation of a turn. This serves as a nice little technique for introducing new carvers to the concepts of rolling of a ski onto an edge and driving the inside knee, which is necessary for a functional stance.

Unfortunately it has mushroomed in the minds of some into the belief that the inside ski is a good place to be through all phases of the turn. The physics and bio mechanics just don't support that philosophy. Neither does the body. Tom, I have the same fear you do, that misleading ideas supported only by the power of popularity may take the unsuspecting down dead end roads.
post #25 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by FastMan:
Unfortunately it has mushroomed in the minds of some into the belief that the inside ski is a good place to be through all phases of the turn. The physics and bio mechanics just don't support that philosophy. Neither does the body. Tom, I have the same fear you do, that misleading ideas supported only by the power of popularity may take the unsuspecting down dead end roads.
I agree. Several instructors have come over as seeing this (50/50) as 'The Latest Way to Ski'. It may not have been their intention but I only remember a fraction of what people say, pretty much like most beginners.
post #26 of 53
Fastman said:
Quote:
Starting on the inside foot and allow the growing forces to move pressure to the outside foot, as you recommend, is an alternative to starting on the outside foot and just leaving the pressure there through the whole turn. I'm just not really sure what the benefits are to executing part of the turn in a bio mechanically weak balance position.
Fastman just like there are bio mechanical differences at the upper end of racing, there are bio mechanical differences and the very low end of the dynamics scale. How does a skier ski a very slow turn much shorter than the radius of the skis in an offensive manner. That is not pushing the tails out from under the skier. That's tough with the weight on the outside foot. I am talking about when the CM force vector is almost non existent.

You have conceded a use for more weight on the inside ski at slow speeds but seem to say that is only for intermediates needing more stability. You completely dismiss this as something upper level skier practice. Without dyanmics, the inside leg is not significantly shorter or weaker. Transfering the weight in this situation to the outside ski, is a CM movement away from the intended direction of the turn.

Now we have many situations in between dead slow and fast enough for significant pressure to build on the outside ski where the dynamics are such that the CM force vector is low but significant. I think what I, Tom B are saying is that we progressively carry less on the inside ski as the dyanmics increase. The turn determines where the pressure and weight go and change throughout the turn. I don't believe that putting 90+ percent of the weight on the outside ski is necessarily the mark of an expert.

Also, keep in mind that perception does not match reality. The bent weaker leg, as you say, cannot carry as much weight but may match the outside leg in muscle tension, That gives the impression that the pressure is equal between the feet when in reality, the pressures are not. It may be 90% weight on the outside ski and 10% on the inside ski and still give the perception that the pressure is 50/50. The perception of equality allows balance to seek harmoney with stability. Its this 50/50 that I seek.

Why is it that I now see racers that stand on the podium with much more inclination and less angulation for the same amount of edge and significantly more decambering of their inside skis?
post #27 of 53
John Dowling said:
Quote:
Most coaches use the terms "weight' and "pressure" interchangeably. I don't know how skis could be equally weighted, but not equally pressured. If you are using different, non-standard definitions, you should state what they are.
Weight can cause pressure but pressure cannot cause weight. They are definitely not interchangable. If we do not move our weight over the inside foot centrifugal force will dump us to the outside of the turn.

When we move our weight over the outside ski to team up with centrifugal force and increase pressure we dyanmically balance only on the inside edge of the outside ski. This is fine if you're idea is the match the turn forces as they happen but that locks you into waiting for forces (being reactionary) instead of be agile between the feet and proactive to forces (balancing on the outside ski but having the inside ski to push against and change edge angles). This is particularly true at slower speeds where decambering is minimal.
post #28 of 53
I don't know if I'm the exception and in the giant minority concerning my experience with inside ski weighting, but I never felt I could bend two skis into the degree or level of reverse camber I desired as well as what I feel when I am predominately weighting the downhill ski.

I feel like I am able to carve better when weighting the downhill ski. Having said that I marvel at skiers that are definitely weighting both skis , carving high speed arcs at high speed , and look so solid doing it that they look like they are skiing on rails. When you witness this level of "two foot" skiing , its hard to hold on to your conviction that a one footed stance can produce the same degree of power and rock solid balance.

I was looking today at an article written by the Mahres that ran in Skiing Magazine probably 99-2000 . They advocated a wider stance and the use of all four edges. They didn't really address weighting as much as fore-aft pressure, cross over, and getting taller and shorter during through the progrssion of the turn.

Those guys were the best. They seemed to keep it pretty simple in their descriptions concerning what they were doing in their ski turns. I wish I could connect the kinetic dots and feel the same sensations as many on this forum are able to.

In golf, which dwarfs skiing with its swing mechanic analysis , the great Ben Hogan said the answer is in the dirt. Maybe in skiing the answer is found in the tracks left on the snow. Its likely there is no absolute perfect model in skiing.
post #29 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Fastman How does a skier ski a very slow turn much shorter than the radius of the skis in an offensive manner. That's tough with the weight on the outside foot.
FASTMAN:
Your right Pierre. Anytime the radius of a produced turn is much smaller than the radius of the ski there is obviously something going on beyond carving.

What I suspect your referring to is the now popular concept of SCARVING. For those of you not familiar with, or lack clear understanding of the term, it carving supplemented with subtle steering. I've heard some proponents of this technique adamantly deny steering is involved. Their wrong, it's there, it has to be or the radius limitations of the ski could not be overcome. It's just a very refined form of steering.

But bottom line is it's steering, and to execute it two points of contact are needed, as I stated earlier, so two footed pressure is required.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
You have conceded a use for more weight on the inside ski at slow speeds but seem to say that is only for intermediates needing more stability. You completely dismiss this as something upper level skier practice.
FASTMAN:
I have defined it as low level skiing if it's the result of consistent rotational tail tossing. Two footed steering is part of the skill repertoire of all upper level skiers. It's only when it's the only arrow in the quiver of a skier that I define that skier as lower level.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
keep in mind that perception does not match reality. The bent weaker leg, as you say, cannot carry as much weight but may match the outside leg in muscle tension, That gives the impression that the pressure is equal between the feet when in reality, the pressures are not. It may be 90% weight on the outside ski and 10% on the inside ski and still give the perception that the pressure is 50/50.
FASTMAN:
Perhaps, Pierre, there lies the confusion. I am describing reality and you are describing perception. What in reality is 10% of the total forces of the turn concentrated on the inside ski which I describe as a rudder, to you feels the same as the pressure on the outside leg because of the bent inside legs weaker bearing capacity, so you describe it as such.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Why is it that I now see racers that stand on the podium with much more inclination and less angulation for the same amount of edge and significantly more decambering of their inside skis?
FASTMAN:
Perhaps another case of perception over reality. The best skiers direct the forces to the outside foot for the reasons I have explained. And those who are learning the use of inside leg extension often, when tactics allow, commit to the outside ski even before reaching neutral between turns.

At the Eastern Championships a couple weeks ago I inspected the track after the slalom. Big rut where the outside skis passed the gate, small track where the inside skis had passed.

There is pressure on the inside ski, but very little. It's just a stabilizer, the work happens on the outside ski. Even with light pressure the ski will throw snow so pictures become deceiving.
post #30 of 53
Fastman I would have to agree that most of the pressure in racers turns is on the outside ski even if it appears otherwise. The forces are simply too great to be otherwise. I think the inclination that we are seeing is the result of ski design allowing racers to gain a higher edge than is possible through flexible joints. Certainly higher than in previous times.
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