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Source of Vermont's Snow - Page 2

post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post

And the altitude of the "Eastern Townships" is?
 


 

The base of Jay Peak and Mont Sutton are pretty close.  The other lower altitude areas report a bit less snow than Sutton, which seems realistic.  The difference in summit height isn't much more than that little bit of mountain accessible only by the tram.  

Like I said, watch when the snow is gone... You'd think it'd be at Jay A LOT longer given the 150" of annual difference.  It's not.

As well, I remember a few years back Jay would keep a two running totals of snow.  If I remember correctly it was a minimum and maximum... minimum likely being in the middle of trails, and maximum likely being in a snow drift somewhere.  It was the maximum that would get to 355", while (if I remember correctly) the minimums were not too much more than half of that.
post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSchmoe View Post




Creative accounting!  Go to Le Massif north of Quebec if you want to see what an honest 21ft looks like (252").  The difference will blow your mind.

I think the intense competition between the Vermont resorts puts pressure on the operators to inflate their numbers.  This is especially true for Jay Peak as it's the hardest to get to from where most live.  

One source of truth is that every year Jay's snow only seems to last as long as the Eastern Township resorts in Quebec just a few miles north (in actual viewing distance)... even though they only report half the snow totals.  Mont Sutton: 204" Mont Orford: 140" Owl's Head: 180".  Jay: 355"?????

 

Actually Jay is 1000' higher than Mont Sutton. I've skied them both, even in the same day, and Jay gets a ton more snow, end of story. As for the snow in the spring, most of Jay is east facing whereas Mont Sutton is north facing, which makes a huge difference in the warm spring sun. Jay isn't very good in the spring.
post #33 of 41
Jay lookiing SW from near Canada border.
post #34 of 41
Gee, I didn't explain what that picture is.  It's a google earth image of Jay looking SW from near the Canada border.  It's from 2000' which is about 1/2 the height of Jay.  You can see how much higher it is than anything else around it.  That little ridge in front is much close and since the eye angle if from 2000', it's probably 1500' below the top of Jay.
post #35 of 41
 I agree that Jay is higher, and I believe the facts that say it gets more snow.  What I strongly dispute, based on personal experience and logic is that it gets 355".  Like I said earlier, they are taking the "maximum" amount they're measuring, which is likely in some generous snow drift type area, and is not truly representative of the mountain.  Their old "minimum" totals used to come in the 265" ball park which is more believable.  I figure the other high-snow areas in Vermont areas are doing the same thing based on it being the most competitive market in the East.  As well, I guarantee you that if they measured snow at Le Massif (which is south facing with a base at sea level) like they do at Jay, it'd get an average of 400-500".  

It'd be good if snow totals could be measured or monitored by impartial 3rd parties.  
post #36 of 41
Boy are you guys stupid, don't you know anything about meteorology? 

Source of Snow 101:

post #37 of 41
i have not read this whole mess, but my take is that 355 represents the total measured as having fallen-----not the tolal accumulated anywhere on the hill.

Big difference.

when we have a 3 inch rain fall.  we're not slogging through 3 inches of water 3 days later eh??  snow the same thing! and another 3 inch shower, and another

we measuered 9 inches of precip, but look there is not 9 inches on the ground anywhere.  It is still a very valid measurement

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSchmoe View Post

 I agree that Jay is higher, and I believe the facts that say it gets more snow.  What I strongly dispute, based on personal experience and logic is that it gets 355".  Like I said earlier, they are taking the "maximum" amount they're measuring, which is likely in some generous snow drift type area, and is not truly representative of the mountain.  Their old "minimum" totals used to come in the 265" ball park which is more believable.  I figure the other high-snow areas in Vermont areas are doing the same thing based on it being the most competitive market in the East.  As well, I guarantee you that if they measured snow at Le Massif (which is south facing with a base at sea level) like they do at Jay, it'd get an average of 400-500".  

It'd be good if snow totals could be measured or monitored by impartial 3rd parties.  
 
post #38 of 41
I looked at the same shot on Google Earth before I posted, just to make sure. I should have just remembered my 2 trips to North Country Hospital in Newport (neither trip was for me). It's flat there and northward as far as the eye can see. Jay Peak to the southeast just rises out of the ground.
post #39 of 41
dusting this thread off after a while...

couple things-
 
Northern VT is a nexus of weather patterns- lake effect, clippers, and synoptic coastal events.  Especially Jay-Smuggs-Stowe lie at this crossroad.  The Spine of the Greens form a virtual wall- with just enough orographics to squeeze out 300-350" a year.

Smuggs, until the past year or so, under-reported their snowfalls in my opinion.  they wouldn't be as liberal in their reporting (possibly reporting a mean, instead of a max snowfall).  their marketing isn't so much snow-based, but a niche for families (which they do quite well with).  smuggs receives about 330" of snow a year- on par with Stowe, probably getting a bit more or a bit less depending on the year.

Northern VT's crossroad factor, coupled with higher elevations than the Eastern Townships definitely correlate to higher snowfall- its a fact that at 2500ft in the greens, there is less snow than 3500ft.  

As for the argument that Jay doesn't stay open any longer than the Eastern Township resorts to the north- a few things to say here.  Firstly, anyone who skis Jay knows the trail system their is garbage- trails cut erratically, and without much thought as to expsosure to prevailing winds (Winds notoriously BLAST  Jay). Storms leave jay virtually barren because of winds, depositing snow in the glades they so love to market.  

Lastly, look at the UVM Mount Mansfield Snow graph @ www.uvm/skivt-l.  It's a 50 year compilation of snow at "The Stake" on Mansfield at around 3700-3800 ft.   It's not marketing, but a study plot.  If you examine even the truly great snowfall years for VT ('69, '78, and '01 I think- give or take a year) you will see how quickly the snowpack dissolves by mid-april.

 it just plummets given eastern low altitude temps and increased sun.  it's like clockwork- things just melt uber-fast in the Northeast, so Eastern Township resorts and Jay pretty much become one in the same when the sun is high in the sky.  coupled with crappy trail layout and wind-scouring over a season- yeah, jay will close early.   and yeah, they do likely average 350" a year.  

all the same, I don't like Jay all that much as a place to reguarly ski.  so i'm not big into defending the place.
post #40 of 41
I believe it is the nor-easter snows that don't hit as far inland to catch New York as easily as it does hit the green mountains.
post #41 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ono View Post

Smuggs, until the past year or so, under-reported their snowfalls in my opinion.  they wouldn't be as liberal in their reporting (possibly reporting a mean, instead of a max snowfall).  their marketing isn't so much snow-based, but a niche for families (which they do quite well with).  smuggs receives about 330" of snow a year- on par with Stowe, probably getting a bit more or a bit less depending on the year.
 

Sounds like Smuggs was the only place in Northern Vt not measuring their snow in a snow drift location.

Another interesting point would be to look at resort totals vs weather station totals.  I've noticed on Tony Crocker's website that the weather station data and resort yearly snow totals aren't the same.  For instance at Stowe, there is a WCAX-TV transmitter that records snow totals.  They indicate the seasonal average to be 230", which would be in line with the Smuggs old honest numbers.  Tony attributes this to time of day, but I would guess there would be a definite fudge factor in there at the other resorts.  If you look at a lot of Western Resorts, the case is the same.

http://webpages.charter.net/tcrocker818/
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