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Nordica Dobermann WC 150 08/09

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Boot Make: Nordica
Boot Model: Dobermann WC 150 Size 28.0
Snow Conditions Used In: Groomed, bumps, powder, spring oatmeal
Number of Days Used: 15 or so
Your Ability: Advanced
How Many Years Have You Been Skiing: 33
Avg. Days per Year Skiing: 40
Previous Boots: Head RS 96, Tecnica XT 17, DPXR, TNT XR
Your Height/Weight: 6' 180#

There have been three real epiphanies in my skiing, the first being lessons resulting in the understanding of balance and stance, the second and third being boots which allowed the existence of balance and stance.

I have narrow feet.  Forefoot A, left foot longer, right foot shorter but wider.  Very narrow heel / achilles area.  The XT 17 fit like a glove right out of the box, and was the second improvement in my skiing:  Boots that fit!  A boot that actually held my heel in place.  But the XT 17 was designed for an earlier age, when skis were narrow and long.

The Head RS 96 was an uncomfortable boot with too much room in the heel/ankle and not enough in the instep/forefoot but provided an effective stance geometry that turned black runs into blues.  Ditto the Atomic CS 110, way too roomy in the heel, much to tight in the instep, but good stance geometry and great flex pattern.

Overcoming my fear of a "real race boot" (and getting them at a very low price) enter the Nordica WC 150, the boot I should have bought years ago.  Lace-up liner, snug heel pocket, instep room (unlike the Atomic CS series), and just enough forefoot room.

WOW!  So this is what the sport of Alpine skiing is all about.  It only took 30 years to find out.  Instant response, total precision, absolute control.  Think about the turn, it's already over.  I now understand one of the reasons how WC athletes can do what they can do:  Boots that work.

At first, I could only stand to have these boots on my feet for maybe 10 minutes.  I was convinced that I was in for many long sessions with the boot fitter.  As it turned out, the liners conformed to my feet quickly.  Soon I was leaving them on indoors for 15, then 20, then 30 minutes.  Then a couple runs on the snow.  In the end, I saw the bootfitter only once:  to have a tad more instep room created by heating up the tongue of the boot and squeezing it in a vise, and grinding out the shell in the area of the "tuberosity of the 5th metatarsal bone".

After 15 days on the snow, the instep adjustment may not have been necessary, and the shell grinding probably should have been reduced 50%.  Also, even in this 95mm width boot, the heel pocket could be tighter.

The stock 150 flex is ridiculously stiff for free skiing.  After my first two full days, I cut out the outlined saddle cuts to reduce the flex to 130.  On warm days, this is perfect for me, as I like to ski short radius off-piste fall line turns.  On cold days, the flex is still a bit too stiff.

I can't really put into words how much faster and more confidently I am skiing in this boot.  This boot puts me in a balanced stance and transmits the slightest input instantly to the skis.  Double blacks have now become blues.

The WC 150 is also much warmer than the XT-17.  After 4 hours at Kirkwood in teen temperatures, my feet were still warm.  BUT, here is the negative about this boot:  They do NOT come off in cold temperatures.  Repeat, they do NOT come off.  Plan on hanging around in the lodge for awhile after lifts close, because you will not be able to remove these boots while cold.

If you have narrow feet, do not be afraid of these boots, even if you are an intermediate skiier.  These boots will put you in a balanced stance over the skis resulting in confidence to go faster, steeper, and deeper than ever before.  Plus, they are in the one and only appropriate color for a ski boot:  Black.
Edited by stvbck - 9/11/09 at 2:00am
post #2 of 18
Interesting report. I had a very similar epiphany back in 2006.  I was on XT17s at the time and just could not make a GS ski work for me.  In the best spirit of masters racing (you gotta be able to buy something that will help!!) I tried 4 different GS skis, even tried the retail rather than stock versions to no avail.  I then picked up a new pair of Dobie150s for a ridiculously low price on E-bay without having ever tried a pair on.  I am a 24.5 high instep, fairly narrow foot and I could get into them without any mods.  Whooee...... what a difference from the 2nd turn!!!  I could finally get a decent (for me) GS turn and was able to properly feel and drive the ski.  Totally transformed my season and finally put a smile on my face.

Now been skiing and racing on them for the last 3 seasons with the only mods being a booster strap and having them aligned by Bud Heishman.  To my mind the biggest difference is the more upright stance which makes it easier to be balanced on the ski and move back/fore and feel/pressure the ski as required with minimal movement.
 
I would disagree on the warmth though, this is definitely the coldest boot I have ever used!  And definitely a PITA to get off when really cold. 

I have stuck with the flex as is and use the boot for free skiing as well. The booster strap definitely improves it and smooths it out.  The only time I find it to be rather stiffer than ideal is in high angle chutes but that may be the pilot. 

For grins and giggles I played about with a couple of other boots last season.  The Atomic RT (?) I found to just have too much forward lean angle for me, a good boot otherwise but the stance just didn't work for me.  The Rossi/Lange RL11 I am still undecided on.  I am still playing about with them with different liner combos etc. as I think they may be worth trying for speed events - OTOH I may just not bother!

Of course the other thing that always nagged me was whether I could go another size down given that I had required absolutely no grinding in a full plug boot.  Soooo......down to see Jim at Starthaus this summer and tried the Aggressor 150 in both 24.5 and 23.5 just to satisfy my curiosity.  Fairly quick decision!.  While we could have potentially got my feet into the 23.5 with a helluva lot of work, it was not going to be a better solution. So 24.5 Aggressor 150 for this season - only work so far was a minor reshaping on the boot board, need to get them aligned but want to get them bedded in first and may need a couple of other minor tweaks but otherwise good to go.  Will report back when I get them on snow.  May also try softening off the old ones
post #3 of 18
I am glad that the WC 150 worked for you. I think that one of the factors which helped you ski better / much better is the lateral cant built into the mold. I am sure that the stance helped but, IMO, the lateral cant helped you too. If you do not know, the Atomic RT, Nordica Dobermann and some Hot Rod models have lateral cant built into the mold of the lower shell. The zeppa has some lateral cant, too. It is not a lot, though... 1-2 degrees is fairly common for the lower. That is an advantage of plug and semi-plug boots. Not every plug and consume plug is built that way. For example Tecnica offers the true plug and consumer plug with a neutral lower and zeppa. I tried on  the Diablo Race R H17 and Race 130 and both boots have a neutral lower. The XT had a neutral lower too.

The difference in performance betwwen the boots with lateral cant and those without is a lot, IMO. I skied the XT and Race 130 and the Nordica Hot Rod and i can tell you that the latter had much better edge hold and performed much better than the Tecnicas when i was carving. Basically, i was a different skier with the Hot Rod. The lateral cant sometimes led to oversteering on steep hardpack (making skidded turns) because i was used to the neutral cant of the Tecnicas.

The Atomic RT STi should be narrower than the WC 150 in the ankle/heel area. However, it will be narrower in the forefoot @ 92 mm and lower over the instep. I tried it on and it was narrower than the Ti. I think that you will find very few boots which have a narrower heel than the WC 150.  If they become a little loose in the ankle/heel, i suggest you replace the stock thin lace-up liner with a liner from a semi-plug. It is a little "thicker" but will have two advantages, other than the heel hold: warmth and much easier boot exit.   


ScotsSkier, i have a question for you: why did you choose the Aggressor over the WC regular last?
post #4 of 18
Thread Starter 
I forgot to mention that the boots I have are the Aggressor model, but I don't notice a significant difference from the RS 96 as far as the offset stance is concerned.

Also the increased warmth over the XT 17 probably has to do with the better overlap of the Nordica - Snow was always getting inside the XT-17's.

I might play with other liners, but for now the heel pocket is still tight enough.  I did try a Zipfit WC liner, but could not even get close to putting my foot in the boot with it.

post #5 of 18
Nordica offers a heel retainer kit if you need the heel area tightened up. They are available on the Nordica web site under 'Parts'.
post #6 of 18
Ah, the aggressors... I thought about that possibility but i could not recall if Nordica offered the regular wc last in addition to the aggressor or not. Probably not. Anyway, i would like to say that the toes-out stance of the aggressors and the lateral cant built into the mold are two different things. The lateral cant is present in most race and semi-race boots. The boots which do not have it are very few. Among them are the Tecnicas, Salomons and Lange RL 11 plug and semi-plug. The lateral cant will give you stronger edgehold. The toes-out stance of the aggressors is different. Everyone i have spoken to said that they excel at turn initiation and that they are great for carving. They give you the impression that the skis have more sidecut than they actually do.They could lead to overturning in terrain. That's what the guys said. I can't confirm that because i haven't skied them. I am a pronator and my knees track inward when i flex. I got a pair.   
post #7 of 18
Very interesting thread.........I too was a Tecnica Formula then XT 17 then Dobie 150 skier.  The leap was huge from the Tecnica to the 150's.  I too found they failed to come off in the cold.  I also noticed that I used a ton of body english to make them work.  I later moved to a 130 & my skiing went up another level.  (  i subscripe to the masters notion mentioned prior)
 Unfortunately, I still felt that while I made great cross over turns I could not retract my feet & nail the cross unders.  The flex was too stiff for me on steeper terrain (@145#).  I softened them, but they are really beat & even my wife asked "how old are they?"  Well after 3 seasons of hard skiing I think they are done.

 I have moved to the Tecnica 110 for this season.  I've never heard anyone say "your boots are too soft".  We'll see.
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post

.  I've never heard anyone say "your boots are too soft".  We'll see.

Oh i say that quite a bit, but it depends on the individual

enjoy them
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post

Very interesting thread.........I too was a Tecnica Formula then XT 17 then Dobie 150 skier.  The leap was huge from the Tecnica to the 150's.  I too found they failed to come off in the cold.  I also noticed that I used a ton of body english to make them work.  I later moved to a 130 & my skiing went up another level.  (  i subscripe to the masters notion mentioned prior)
 Unfortunately, I still felt that while I made great cross over turns I could not retract my feet & nail the cross unders.  The flex was too stiff for me on steeper terrain (@145#).  I softened them, but they are really beat & even my wife asked "how old are they?"  Well after 3 seasons of hard skiing I think they are done.

 I have moved to the Tecnica 110 for this season.  I've never heard anyone say "your boots are too soft".  We'll see.

Interesting IRIP. I have a bit more weight on me @170# which probably helps but certainly agree with you on them being stiffer than I would prefer when skiing chutes and the like.  Some of it may come down to different technique as well.  I tend to rely a bit more on muscling the ski  to compensate for lack of skills and the Dobie responds well to that.  I've seen some of your skiing and you are definitely much smoother as well as being a whole lot better.   That is one of the reasons I played about with the Rossi R11 to see if it would give more of a feel for speed events
post #10 of 18
Interesting... a number of us XT17 guys went to the Nordicas, it seems. I'm in the Aggressors, as well (simply because Jeff Bergeron grabbed me one day, took a look at my feet while out of my shoes, and said, "I think I know which boots to put you in this year... come see me").

Anyway, I agree: the XT17s were huge for me when I first got them (Jeff fit those, too), but the Aggressors took everything up a notch. Yes, they're stiff. Yes, I have to use a blow drier to get out of them. But, they are the best connection of my body to the skis that I've ever had.
post #11 of 18
Another observation I have noticed is that after several years, my dobies became less yeilding.  I got so frustrated w/ this that I tossed my 150s.  The got to a point where I could no longer get into them in the house ; the plastic stiffened right up & became near rigid.  These were fit perfect & I used to hike/ski everywhere in them, after a while they became bricks.  Now this was ~6 years or so, I rationalized that keeping the 150s would let me us them for say a SG or other where I wanted a full on boot.  To a lesser extent this is happening to my 3 or so year old 130s.  The shell appears less interested in wraping around my feet.

Anyone else?
post #12 of 18
I think you are just getting fussier, and less willing to put up with wondering if you broke a bone in your foot or gave yourself a hernia after putting on / taking off the boots.  You are probably less willing to put up with the compromises in body position you have to employ when not skiing at warp 9.

I never had dobies, but I do have an old pair of very stiff race boots I bought when I was on the rebound from too-soft boots and an über-control freak looking for the stiffest boots I could find (I only weighed 145 at the time too ).
post #13 of 18
Nordica has discontinued the Aggressor boots this season. The new race lineup does not have the abducted stance, and is molded in the traditional "straight" stance. The new boots are called Doberman World Cup EDT. They look similar to the old models, but the last shape is new. In addition, the foot board is solid metal, and is bolted to the bottom the the shell! I've been told by testers that the bolted metal footboard greatly enhances lateral response, (highest of any boot on the market) but it makes the boots even colder than the Aggressors. Apparently the abducted stance, which was intended to mimic the natural standing foot position did not work as expected at the World Cup level.

If you want or need the abducted stance, Fischer still uses it in their race lineup.
post #14 of 18
 I have been in the Dobermann 130's for the last two seasons. All I can say is WOW. Being diabetic, I get very cold feet in any race boot, and actually had to switch to a softer more comfortable boot in cold weather because I couldn't even enjoy myself out there. Then I got talked into trying the Dobies and they have been my best friend on the slope. They fit wonderfully well with very little work, and the performance is 10X better than any other boot I've ever skied. I LOVE THEM for all conditions and would recommend them to basically anybody advanced level or higher, racers and nonracers alike.
post #15 of 18
this (stiffen with age, I know, I know) thing is correct. I used to buy new boots that were a model year or two old on the shelf for 60% off, which of course was the temptation. no more. the plastic hardens with age, just oxidizing in the box, and it hardens a lot more out in the sun and air. so, yeah, older boots get stiffer, 130 becomes `180+ and not in a nice way. then, of course, they tend to crack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post

Another observation I have noticed is that after several years, my dobies became less yeilding.  I got so frustrated w/ this that I tossed my 150s.  The got to a point where I could no longer get into them in the house ; the plastic stiffened right up & became near rigid.  These were fit perfect & I used to hike/ski everywhere in them, after a while they became bricks.  Now this was ~6 years or so, I rationalized that keeping the 150s would let me us them for say a SG or other where I wanted a full on boot.  To a lesser extent this is happening to my 3 or so year old 130s.  The shell appears less interested in wraping around my feet.

Anyone else?
post #16 of 18
dude, I don't follow. thatis the coldest boot made, bar none, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski View Post

 I have been in the Dobermann 130's for the last two seasons. All I can say is WOW. Being diabetic, I get very cold feet in any race boot, and actually had to switch to a softer more comfortable boot in cold weather because I couldn't even enjoy myself out there. Then I got talked into trying the Dobies and they have been my best friend on the slope. They fit wonderfully well with very little work, and the performance is 10X better than any other boot I've ever skied. I LOVE THEM for all conditions and would recommend them to basically anybody advanced level or higher, racers and nonracers alike.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by stvbck View Post

Boot Make: Nordica
Boot Model: Dobermann WC 150 Size 28.0
Snow Conditions Used In: Groomed, bumps, powder, spring oatmeal
Number of Days Used: 15 or so
Your Ability: Advanced
How Many Years Have You Been Skiing: 33
Avg. Days per Year Skiing: 40
Previous Boots: Head RS 96, Tecnica XT 17, DPXR, TNT XR
Your Height/Weight: 6' 180#

There have been three real epiphanies in my skiing, the first being lessons resulting in the understanding of balance and stance, the second and third being boots which allowed the existence of balance and stance.

I have narrow feet.  Forefoot A, left foot longer, right foot shorter but wider.  Very narrow heel / achilles area.  The XT 17 fit like a glove right out of the box, and was the second improvement in my skiing:  Boots that fit!  A boot that actually held my heel in place.  But the XT 17 was designed for an earlier age, when skis were narrow and long.

The Head RS 96 was an uncomfortable boot with too much room in the heel/ankle and not enough in the instep/forefoot but provided an effective stance geometry that turned black runs into blues.  Ditto the Atomic CS 110, way too roomy in the heel, much to tight in the instep, but good stance geometry and great flex pattern.

Overcoming my fear of a "real race boot" (and getting them at a very low price) enter the Nordica WC 150, the boot I should have bought years ago.  Lace-up liner, snug heel pocket, instep room (unlike the Atomic CS series), and just enough forefoot room.

WOW!  So this is what the sport of Alpine skiing is all about.  It only took 30 years to find out.  Instant response, total precision, absolute control.  Think about the turn, it's already over.  I now understand one of the reasons how WC athletes can do what they can do:  Boots that work.

At first, I could only stand to have these boots on my feet for maybe 10 minutes.  I was convinced that I was in for many long sessions with the boot fitter.  As it turned out, the liners conformed to my feet quickly.  Soon I was leaving them on indoors for 15, then 20, then 30 minutes.  Then a couple runs on the snow.  In the end, I saw the bootfitter only once:  to have a tad more instep room created by heating up the tongue of the boot and squeezing it in a vise, and grinding out the shell in the area of the "tuberosity of the 5th metatarsal bone".

After 15 days on the snow, the instep adjustment may not have been necessary, and the shell grinding probably should have been reduced 50%.  Also, even in this 95mm width boot, the heel pocket could be tighter.

The stock 150 flex is ridiculously stiff for free skiing.  After my first two full days, I cut out the outlined saddle cuts to reduce the flex to 130.  On warm days, this is perfect for me, as I like to ski short radius off-piste fall line turns.  On cold days, the flex is still a bit too stiff.

I can't really put into words how much faster and more confidently I am skiing in this boot.  This boot puts me in a balanced stance and transmits the slightest input instantly to the skis.  Double blacks have now become blues.

The WC 150 is also much warmer than the XT-17.  After 4 hours at Kirkwood in teen temperatures, my feet were still warm.  BUT, here is the negative about this boot:  They do NOT come off in cold temperatures.  Repeat, they do NOT come off.  Plan on hanging around in the lodge for awhile after lifts close, because you will not be able to remove these boots while cold.

If you have narrow feet, do not be afraid of these boots, even if you are an intermediate skiier.  These boots will put you in a balanced stance over the skis resulting in confidence to go faster, steeper, and deeper than ever before.  Plus, they are in the one and only appropriate color for a ski boot:  Black.


 

Hi Stvbck,

A couple comments.

Please realize just because a particular brand model of boot place YOU in a good balanced stance does NOT necessarily equate to a good position for others.

Carry a heat gun (not hair dryer) in your boot bag to expedite boot exits or use your car heater to soften shells.

Please realize that a cold boot for you may be a warm boot for someone else and vis/versa.  A particular boot may restrict your blood flow or nerve function in a specific area where it will not for a different foot shape.

If you would like to get more info or response to your boot questions or observations, drop a post in the "Ask the Boot Guys" forum.

bud
post #18 of 18

Does anyone know if the Nordica Dobermann wc 150 in 2008 had the option of a SC (soft cuff) and if so, how much difference that made? 

 

I loved my old 150's and see them online for cheap, but I don't think it is a SC.

Thanks ( I have 15 hours left to bid)

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